It's killing me but..........

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by Sillyoldtwit, Jan 24, 2006.

  1. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    Interesting that you put emphasis on use of a good trainer, curlew. I have been playing around with my new toy (ride file parsing application) and have studied my ride time and progress over two very different 60-day periods. In most of July and August, I was using my trainer almost daily for 2-3 20min L4 efforts, plus my road rides. In September and October, it was almost entirely road riding and I used my trainer only once or twice a week if at all. I now realize that my trainer sessions provided important physiological and psychological advantages that I don't get on the road even if I put in lots of miles. One advantage is that none of my road rides approaches the efficiency of my trainer rides. I compute my time by level for each ride and then I compute a summary statistic that represents the high-intensity time divided by total time. I call this an efficiency index. It basically represents the quality of the ride from the perspective of making use of the total time on the bike. On the road, it's a real struggle to attain a ride efficiency index of 50%. On the trainer, I regularly attain ride efficiency indexes of ~75-80%. Over time, this is huge. The other thing I have noticed is that nothing prepares me better mentally for sustained constant power efforts like my trainer rides. This was huge for the Mt. Charleston hill climb because it was more than 1.75 hours of continuous climbing. One just has to settle into a high-power rhythm and slug it out for what seems forever. My trainer rides really prepared me well for this mindset. I used to view trainer rides as something to do in the winter to avoid detraining too much. I am now completely revising my thinking to incorporate trainer rides year-round as an integral part of my training plan for both physiological and psychological adaptations. And, when I get my Velodyne later this year (XMAS present to myself), I anticipate increasing the priority and benefits of my trainer rides. As I look back at the personal (cycling) discoveries I have made over the years, I rate this about 9 on a scale of 10.:D
     


  2. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Your writing is more motivation for me.
    I get inspired by reading other's efforts to improve.
    Thanks:)

    I am also interested in seeing how well that PM with the shoe insole works. Then I can take it with me to the gym and use it on the spin bike, but if not I have no problem going with the KK trainer if the wifey will get me one as a gift in December.

    I am hoping the same that next spring my group will be wondering what I have been doing.:)
     
  3. frenchyge

    frenchyge New Member

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    I haven't started seeing my royalty checks from KK yet, have you Rap? ;)

    (Note to self: buy stock in Velodyne for '07.... :cool: )
     
  4. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    No, nor from Saris.


    Good plan.;)
     
  5. curlew

    curlew New Member

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    RD wrote:

    Yes, and you know this, its not just getting the good trainer but it is knowing how to organize the sessions around the right mix of intensity and duration that is key to producing the adaptations. It's these results that motivates you to want to do more sessions on the trainer. That's where Tyson's thread and other threads at Cycling Forums have been so helpful. We didn't just get a hot tip on which trainer to buy. I think you could make huge gains on many of them. But we learned HOW to use a trainer to produce REAL IMPROVEMENT.

    Many of us following this thread don't have PM's ....yet. For me, the trainer sessions on the KK trainer with the watt estimates make the small but significant increments of progress visible at a very reasonable price. When you see these gains in power in December and you haven't tested yourself against others on a group ride in weeks because of the cold and ice, it's these power gains you see from your trainer sessions that keeps you on the bike and not giving into the idea of taking this month off and hitting it hard early in the spring. And over weeks or months on the trainer these small improvements in power accumulate so when Tyson gets back on the road with the "Smoker" he has so much power and he wears em down so much that even the Smoker's wife is talking about it!!:D

    Felt_Rider said it well. "Progress Breeds Motivation Breeds More Progress"


    RD wrote:

    It's so obvious now but it wasn't a year ago. Duration and intensity are both variables that you have to think about and bring together in the right combination to produce the adapations that you want. When you read this forum a lot you almost start to feel lonely when you are at a rest stop on a group ride and everybody is talking about how many miles they've put in this month or over the season. In those situations I'm hoping nobody asks me about my cumulative mileage. I can tell them the number of hours at L4 and above but I have no idea how many miles I've ridden and I don't really care.

    RD wrote:

    Yeah, and I think you have passed on this "different way of seeing the world" to others who follow Tyson's thread. I think you could have told us about the value of winter or (GASP!) year-round trainer sessions, but because Tyson has shown us the value of these trainer sessions so convincingly, the idea has really taken hold in more of us. If I felt out of place on the group rides when the subject of cumulative mileage came up, can you imagine the looks I am going to get when folks hear that I have been riding a trainer on sunny warm days in June??

    Thanks for passing on this insight so convincingly through this thread.
     
  6. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit New Member

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    Hi Curlew, funny you should mention "The Smoker", I met his wife again yesterday and she said he hasn't been very well since the L. Biwa ride.
    I shouldn't laugh but :D :D :D :D

    Seriously though, I have no way of knowing for sure, but perhaps generating 300Watts for prolonged periods (he often rides out front) combined with smokers lungs is finally taking its toll as he approaches 40.

    I would just like to make one thing clear Curlew, I work out on the trainer in the gym because I can't get out on the bike during the week (or very rarely) Perhaps I could have achieved similar results out on the road with a power meter. And dare I suggest, possibly could have made even more progress, as I would be training for longer periods. It gets awfully boring at times in the gym and I think I get off the bike through sheer boredom sometimes, not through having worked out to my maximum potential.

    Just a thought. Tyson ;)
     
  7. tbowren

    tbowren New Member

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    I totally agree with what Curlew said about how great this thread has been.
    Because of Tyson's success, RD's teachings, and everyone's input I became a happy owner of a PowerTap Pro just last week.

    I don't have Lucy's sprint numbers, or RD's FTP, ( or Felt's restraining order from the woman at his spin class), but I'm working on it!!!

    (ok well 2 of the 3 I'm working on)

    My FTP is currently set at 240W, but not for long.
     
  8. otb4evr

    otb4evr New Member

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    I would probably keep working on all 3, if I were you.

    You will get that sprint up there eventually...

    :p

    Jim
     
  9. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit New Member

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    As RD has said, 240Watts is not to be sneezed at. Many people would love to be able to generate 240Watts for 1 hour.

    Great going tb. May I ask your age, because if you're one of us more elderly riders, then I have to knuckle down even more to keep abreast of you? :D
     
  10. Lucy_Aspenwind

    Lucy_Aspenwind New Member

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    Well I was more than likely 'born' with my sprint, so that's that! :D

    Well done on getting a PT Pro, I've got the same one and it has been absolutely educational - above all other things. No more guessing or wondering about why your heart rate is high or low....is it the temperature? is it hydration? is it the effect of Jupiter's gravity?....:cool:

    Now you have one number to go by that actually means something.

    Listen to the advice given here (at least from some!), work hard, and that FTP number will really start climbing.
     
  11. curlew

    curlew New Member

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    Tyson wrote:

    This thread is a real saga and "The Smoker" is one of its neatest characters. Your diagnosis of "The Smoker's" situation after the latest Battle at Lake Biwa is pulmonary and physiological. I'm thinking psychological. ;)

    Tyson wrote:

    Yes, my enthusiam for a $275.00 - $350.00 Kurt Kinetic Trainer and computer shouldn't be taken to mean that I thought this was the ONLY way to see significant improvement or enjoy riding. But it is such an affordable way to begin entering the world of training with power.

    TBowren wrote:

    Cool! What a great time to get a PM. You are starting with a respectable FTP, you've discovered the mother load of good information at Cycling Forums and there is plenty of winter training time ahead. Everything is set for you to be on your way to becoming a force to be reckoned with!:D
     
  12. tdl123321

    tdl123321 New Member

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    This week I did back to back days of L4 20x3. This was the first time I had done L4 intervals without a days rest in between. I was able to finish the intervals on the second day, in fact, I really felt better than I did on the first day. However, on the third day I had a lot of soreness in my hamstrings. The soreness wasn't a problem, but I wanted to know if this was a sign of pushing too hard. In other words, does this mean I am using too much anerobic energy or is ocassional sorenes okay with L4 intervals?
     
  13. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    The soreness likely means that you just stressed your leg muscles a bit more than usual. It actually may have been due to the 2nd consecutive day of L4s (with a 1 day lag). 60mins/day of L4 is a pretty heavy load to jump into if you haven't been doing this kind of volume. I'm a big believer in volume + intensity, but one should bump the volume a step at a time. It's also a bit surprising that it's your hamstrings. It may be your pedaling style (i.e., lifting on the upstroke). My leg stress tends to be quads only because I am a pure "pusher" and not a "lifter."
     
  14. Alex Simmons

    Alex Simmons Member

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    Saddle a fraction high maybe?
     
  15. Alex Simmons

    Alex Simmons Member

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    Hey Tyson

    I was making 'em hurt again today.... but you know, it never occured to me until I got home and looked at this thread again! Seriously, it never enters my mind - all I'm thinking is how the race is panning out and what I have to do to get a successful outcome, which in this case was to work my butt off!

    Race report here.

    At least I got some prize money today.:D

    Cheers
     
  16. Old Junker

    Old Junker New Member

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    in the muscle car business these are called "sleepers", i once saw a stationwagon with a licence plate that said "for granny" and it had 500hp under the hood...;)
     
  17. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit New Member

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    Pretty impressive figures those Alex, well done. You'd massacre me.:(
    So I'm OK for a loan as you won some money today.
    Where did I put my power meter brochure? :D

    Junker you've givenm me an idea for next Sunday's "race". I'm going to hang a sign on my back saying,

    GERIATRIC PLEASE PASS!

    Hopefully this will lull them into a false sense of security.;)

    Have started tapering down for next Sunday. This morning did only 58KM.

    Couldn't resist belting up the 15% climb though. I'm sure that climb is getting flatter by the week - as promised by RD.:rolleyes:

    Nearly came unstuck though on the short 17% climb. I came out of the saddle and started to ramp it up, unfortunately the ground was damp from overnight rain and the back wheel spun round like a mad thing. I almost went over the handlebars. My right quad caught on the handlebar stem and I have a nasty red mark to prove it. Has anyone gone to the logical conclusion of the above - locked into the pedals of course?

    On the way back across the plain among the rice paddies, I couldn't resist again from winding it up to 40/42 kph (26/28mph), just to see if the power is there when I call for it.

    Tues and Thurs 1x10 @ 250/260W plus 50 min tempo ride at 140 cadence, Fri and Sat off and Sunday is another story.

    Oh, I nearly forgot on my way home I came upon "The Pensioner". I've always called him that, but if the truth be known he is probably younger than me.
    However, he has never increased his pace. Last year I used to pass him occasionally, but not going that much faster than him. I used to have time to say "good morning" and "battle on"! This morning as I passed him, I just had time to say oos - short for ohayo gozaimasu (good morning) in Japanese and I was out of sight. Oh, the power, the power. :eek: RD this is definitely an addiction. You do realize of course, I shall be cycling until I can no longer get my leg over.:D
     
  18. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    Why let a little thing like that slow you down? When that happens (if ever), get a recumbent. The way they're going with them, by then they will weigh <20lbs. I have one on my short list for future bikes (let's see, that would be after my Scott Addict (13lb road bike), my P3 TT bike and my racing tandem (I'm going to wait until Lucy gets her FTP up to 300W, then put her on back and go racing)). Right after those bikes comes the 20lb recumbent with 100m deep dish racing wheels.:D
     
  19. Lucy_Aspenwind

    Lucy_Aspenwind New Member

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    You know, I really do appreciate your advice and suggestions - all very useful - and am on my way to 300w eventually.

    Disclaimer now having been issued, I can unequivocally say that there is nothing real, or imagined, that would compel me to ride on the back of a tandem (or anything else for that matter!) [​IMG]

    Tyson on the other hand, would probably make an ideal partner on that tandem.... [​IMG]
     
  20. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit New Member

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    Maybe you'll find it easier than me Lucy, but getting to 300W is a real hard slog. I'm still waiting and hoping for the "big leap" RD and others talk about.

    Yes I can imagine us on a tandem RD. What shall we call our team.

    How about "THE SILLY OLD FARTS"?:D
     
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