It's killing me but..........

[Pendejo]

I've started training with the "L4 method" and it feels right. I do 5 and 10K TTs only, started four years ago never having raced before, and using my own "method" became one of the top three age-groupers in the state of Florida. My own method consisted of doing about 15 miles worth of intervals per week (of various lengths), all pretty much at max for the interval.

But I think my improvement leveled off a year or so ago and I needed to try something different. It looks like I'm now going to do about 30 miles worth of L4 per week, which is about twice as many "suffer-miles" as I was doing before (though at a slightly lower level of suffering). I'll report here on my results.

I do have a question. Should I still do the occasional speed work at max? The thing I still wonder about the L4 method is this: can I really improve my chances of averaging 25 mph in a TT if I only go 24 1/2 mph in training? Shouldn't I still do some intervals at, say, 25 1/2?

 

[Sillyoldtwit]

I've started training with the "L4 method" and it feels right. I do 5 and 10K TTs only, started four years ago never having raced before, and using my own "method" became one of the top three age-groupers in the state of Florida. My own method consisted of doing about 15 miles worth of intervals per week (of various lengths), all pretty much at max for the interval.

But I think my improvement leveled off a year or so ago and I needed to try something different. It looks like I'm now going to do about 30 miles worth of L4 per week, which is about twice as many "suffer-miles" as I was doing before (though at a slightly lower level of suffering). I'll report here on my results.

I do have a question. Should I still do the occasional speed work at max? The thing I still wonder about the L4 method is this: can I really improve my chances of averaging 25 mph in a TT if I only go 24 1/2 mph in training? Shouldn't I still do some intervals at, say, 25 1/2?

Unfortunately Pen, RD is not around to answer your question, and I wouldn't attempt to answer it for fear of giving you duff advice. Hopefully someone else will answer your question.
Cheers! Tyson

 

[daveryanwyoming]

....Should I still do the occasional speed work at max?

Depends on how you define max and what your goals are. For 5 and 10 mile TTs you really don't need to do max work in terms of 200 meter sprints or 30 second intervals full out.

The thing I still wonder about the L4 method is this: can I really improve my chances of averaging 25 mph in a TT if I only go 24 1/2 mph in training?

Yes, doing slightly sub threshold work (sub FTP) will improve your sustainable power which will make you go faster. During the actual TT you shouldn't artificially hold back beyond your best pacing, but the training you describe will raise your sustainable power and with it your speed.

Shouldn't I still do some intervals at, say, 25 1/2?

Sure, but those aren't max, they're slightly above FTP if you can hold 25 for a full TT.

As you near your genetic limits and improvement slows down with a steady diet of 95% FTP intervals like 2x20's, it pays to do some higher end L4 work like 3x10s or 2x15s or even 2x20s at up to 105% of your FTP. That should help you train those last few watts for extra sustainable speed.

When you get within 6 or 7 weeks of your target events you'll want to start your training week with some 5x5' intervals at 110% to 120% of your FTP at the time. This is VO2 max work and trains your ability to work at the very top end of your aerobic range. You'll dig into this zone towards the end of your TTs so you want to build it up a bit. Maybe we're stuck on terminology but even these intervals which are painful and will force you to maximal breathing aren't "max" intervals compared to one minute all out efforts or sprint work.

You basically want to train the energy delivery systems that you'll draw on during your target events. For a 5 and 10 mile TT specialist that means L4 (FTP) work and L5 (VO2 max) work. The higher end L4 and all of the L5 will be above your target race pace but you should still aim for a power sustainable for at least 10 minutes for L4 work and at least 3 and preferably 5 minutes for L5 work.

The key thing here is that you're training specific energy systems not strength in the classic weight lifters sense. To do that you need to stay in each zone long enough for that energy delivery system to kick into action and then a bit longer to get some training effect. It takes about 2 to 2.5 minutes to get into your VO2 max zone so to get training benefit you want to hold that power output for at least 3 minutes. It takes about 8 minutes to get your L4 systems working so you want to hold those intervals for at least 10 minutes and a bit longer is better.

This is a very different way of thinking for lots of folks that think in terms of strength, but if you analyze pedaling forces you'll see that you're only putting 30 to 40 pounds on your pedals during the hard parts of a TT. Anybody can do a lot of 40 pound leg presses, the question is whether you can do them 90 or more times a minute for the duration of your events and that doesn't require more strength, it requires better energy delivery to your working muscles. That's really what training for these events is all about and to train those systems you have to work in the appropriate ranges and for the appropriate durations. Hammering out a bunch of 1 minute max effort intervals will train your ability to tolerate lactic acid buildup and will train your muscles to work anaerobically, trouble is you don't want to get anaerobic during a 10 mile TT so you'd be training the wrong system.

Good luck and let us know how it's coming...
-Dave

 

[Pendejo]

Depends on how you define max and what your goals are. For 5 and 10 mile TTs you really don't need to do max work in terms of 200 meter sprints or 30 second intervals full out.
Yes, doing slightly sub threshold work (sub FTP) will improve your sustainable power which will make you go faster. During the actual TT you shouldn't artificially hold back beyond your best pacing, but the training you describe will raise your sustainable power and with it your speed.
Sure, but those aren't max, they're slightly above FTP if you can hold 25 for a full TT.

As you near your genetic limits and improvement slows down with a steady diet of 95% FTP intervals like 2x20's, it pays to do some higher end L4 work like 3x10s or 2x15s or even 2x20s at up to 105% of your FTP. That should help you train those last few watts for extra sustainable speed.

When you get within 6 or 7 weeks of your target events you'll want to start your training week with some 5x5' intervals at 110% to 120% of your FTP at the time. This is VO2 max work and trains your ability to work at the very top end of your aerobic range. You'll dig into this zone towards the end of your TTs so you want to build it up a bit. Maybe we're stuck on terminology but even these intervals which are painful and will force you to maximal breathing aren't "max" intervals compared to one minute all out efforts or sprint work.

You basically want to train the energy delivery systems that you'll draw on during your target events. For a 5 and 10 mile TT specialist that means L4 (FTP) work and L5 (VO2 max) work. The higher end L4 and all of the L5 will be above your target race pace but you should still aim for a power sustainable for at least 10 minutes for L4 work and at least 3 and preferably 5 minutes for L5 work.

The key thing here is that you're training specific energy systems not strength in the classic weight lifters sense. To do that you need to stay in each zone long enough for that energy delivery system to kick into action and then a bit longer to get some training effect. It takes about 2 to 2.5 minutes to get into your VO2 max zone so to get training benefit you want to hold that power output for at least 3 minutes. It takes about 8 minutes to get your L4 systems working so you want to hold those intervals for at least 10 minutes and a bit longer is better.

This is a very different way of thinking for lots of folks that think in terms of strength, but if you analyze pedaling forces you'll see that you're only putting 30 to 40 pounds on your pedals during the hard parts of a TT. Anybody can do a lot of 40 pound leg presses, the question is whether you can do them 90 or more times a minute for the duration of your events and that doesn't require more strength, it requires better energy delivery to your working muscles. That's really what training for these events is all about and to train those systems you have to work in the appropriate ranges and for the appropriate durations. Hammering out a bunch of 1 minute max effort intervals will train your ability to tolerate lactic acid buildup and will train your muscles to work anaerobically, trouble is you don't want to get anaerobic during a 10 mile TT so you'd be training the wrong system.

Good luck and let us know how it's coming...
-Dave

Thanks, Dave, that's a very good explanation, and much appreciated.

 

[Sillyoldtwit]

Hey Nomad, I know how you felt when you went out last week in your bib shorts for the first time.

Well the warm weather has reached the Nagoya area, and yesterday morning at 7am the temp was a balmy 12C (53F). So set off wearing bib shorts for the first time since last autumn and just 2 layers instead of 5.

Man I had to rein in the power at the beginning it felt so good, as I knew I had 86 kilometers to go. I think I've been underestimating my power through quoting gym trainer figures (the greenhouse!)

On the flat if the ratios between speed and power are correct I was motoring along at between 260W and 330W plus. None of it felt hard. 330 Watts required a bit more effort of course but I was still accelerating at that point and could have gone much harder.

I knocked off a cool 28 minutes from the same ride last Sunday.

Now I'm becoming obsessed with power again - I've got to have more power - gimme more!

TYSON

 

[wiredued]

You still don't have a KK Pro yet.... why not? I thought you said you were getting one.

I think I've been underestimating my power through quoting gym trainer figures (the greenhouse!)

 

[Sillyoldtwit]

You still don't have a KK Pro yet.... why not? I thought you said you were getting one.

I'm so sorry wiredued I let you down, will you forgive me.

I wanted to get the KK and PT 2.4 together from a single source in the US. First as you can see from the posts re: the 2.4, the bugs don't seem to have been ironed out as yet. so I thought I'd wait. To compound the problem my contact in the US for a good price on the above then disappeared.

Thirdly, the gym is cooling down now, so have decided to wait until I go to the UK in July where I can actually try out all this equipment. Who knows, by then there might be a new super trainer on the market with a reliable iBike power meter. Prudence is the name of the game.
Tyson

 

[NomadVW]

So.. I get to pay for the weekend's nice weather. To do L4 work inside or outside today.... blech

 

[NomadVW]

So.. I get to pay for the weekend's nice weather. To do L4 work inside or outside today.... blech

So I got out today. I did an hour and 15 minutes in the blustery winds. No conditions to get steady L4 work at all, so I peeled into the house to hop on the trainer.

Did 20 minutes @ 335, cooled down, and then .. man. the next 4x5 intervals were just down right **** poor. I hate riding trainers.

5 min @ 353
5 min @ 333
5 min @ a miserable 315, and I didn't even try the fourth.

I can typically get through 4x4 @ 380-400, but on the trainer these are just so much stinkin harder - I don't care what anyone says.

I got back outside for my cool down and did some low L1 spinning for a half hour just to blow off my frustration. I've yet to really wrap myself around L5. I suppose it will come sooner or later.

 

[BullGod]

So I got out today. I did an hour and 15 minutes in the blustery winds. No conditions to get steady L4 work at all, so I peeled into the house to hop on the trainer.

Did 20 minutes @ 335, cooled down, and then .. man. the next 4x5 intervals were just down right **** poor. I hate riding trainers.

5 min @ 353
5 min @ 333
5 min @ a miserable 315, and I didn't even try the fourth.

I can typically get through 4x4 @ 380-400, but on the trainer these are just so much stinkin harder - I don't care what anyone says.

I got back outside for my cool down and did some low L1 spinning for a half hour just to blow off my frustration. I've yet to really wrap myself around L5. I suppose it will come sooner or later.

I am having the same issue. I know I am capable of putting down 4 x 5 @ 400w, but round about 3.5 mins into the first one I start to think about making it 5 x 4 @380 or some kind of copout....

Tonight it's gonna be 5 x 5 @ 375+....or else!

 

[wiredued]

Thats OKK I'm OKK you're OKK

I'm so sorry wiredued I let you down, will you forgive me.

 

[Sillyoldtwit]

So I got out today. I did an hour and 15 minutes in the blustery winds. No conditions to get steady L4 work at all, so I peeled into the house to hop on the trainer.

Did 20 minutes @ 335, cooled down, and then .. man. the next 4x5 intervals were just down right **** poor. I hate riding trainers.

5 min @ 353
5 min @ 333
5 min @ a miserable 315, and I didn't even try the fourth.

I can typically get through 4x4 @ 380-400, but on the trainer these are just so much stinkin harder - I don't care what anyone says.

I got back outside for my cool down and did some low L1 spinning for a half hour just to blow off my frustration. I've yet to really wrap myself around L5. I suppose it will come sooner or later.

Yep, the trainer is truly for the determined. It is totally unforgiving, there is no coasting, no whirr of the tyres, no scenery - nothing, no distractions, just you, the rotating pedals and your quads. Totally merciless!

I love it! I'm off to the gym now to do 4x5 and 1x20 plus. Tyson

 

[smallyke]

sillydowitt i had a question to you.

In one of the pages of this thread you spoke about tryng the treadmill at 6 min/mile after previously not running for years?

And if im correct to assume your age is in teh sixties?

How long did you hold that day on the treadmill?
At that age 6 mintue miles are really competitive i would assume.

 

[Sillyoldtwit]

sillydowitt i had a question to you.

In one of the pages of this thread you spoke about tryng the treadmill at 6 min/mile after previously not running for years?

And if im correct to assume your age is in teh sixties?

How long did you hold that day on the treadmill?
At that age 6 mintue miles are really competitive i would assume.

As I'm totally disinterested in running now that I'm a cycling power freak - even less interested than I was last year. I don't go near the treadmill now and I've given up the weights too which are a total waste of good cycling training time.
But to answer your question, I didn't time myself and I probably wouldn't remember anyway, suffice to say it was a few minutes. I know if I took up running again, even at 64 I think I could still churn out 6 minute miles. You see, I tell myself continuosly that I'm only 40ish and when I'm on the bike that's what I feel. On my shopping bike (which everyone possesses in Japan) I dart in and out, turn the power on and off at will, and I was going to say, like a high school student, but I haven't found one who can stay with me.

Cheers! Tyson

PS In the gym this morning a 72 year old Japanese guy I used to train on the
weights with was doing I reckon, close to 6.5 minute miles on the treadmill. No big deal you see.

 

[J-V]

Well, since starting a program of training with power only 6 weeks ago, three days ago I shattered my previous personal best (from Aug '06) up that climb by more than 2 minutes (27:44, great for me)! Prior to using power data and all the knowledge gained both from 'The Book' and what I shall now deem 'The Thread', I would be lucky to get a personal best by perhaps 30 seconds from year to year, and that after a pretty significant (for me) season of riding hills.

What a cool post. Congrats on your progress to date. I think you're going to shatter lots of PBs this year. Great choice of a training setup, btw.

You may be right, RapDaddyo! It's now one month later, and that climb is now down to 26:19 for me (that's another -1:25!!!)...

 

[Sillyoldtwit]

You may be right, RapDaddyo! It's now one month later, and that climb is now down to 26:19 for me (that's another -1:25!!!)...

Unfortunately, RD has gone to ground and we have seen neither hide or hair of him for sometime now. It's probably my fault, but if not he might have overtrained and as you probably know, if you seriously overtrain, you want nothing to do with bikes. Although RD trains like a maniac, I don't really think he would overtrain. He is also I believe, working on a new business project, but I would be surprised if that would keep him away from these forums entirely where his advice is highly respected.

Time will tell - hopefully.

You seem to be improving rapidly - well done. It would be nice to have some actual power figures from you.

Hey Nomad, I don't know about Hiroshima, but it is damn freezing here again and the forecast for my Sunday morning ride is minus 1C/32F! I think I'll stay in bed.

 

[NomadVW]

Yah, it was pretty stinkin cold today for the first race of the year.

Full race report HERE

Clif notes:
Didn't crash, didn't get dropped - bridged the gap to the break away. Came in 8th out of the 8 man breakaway after trying to gap the breakaway in the worst spot possible probably (field of 75).

 

[J-V]

You seem to be improving rapidly - well done. It would be nice to have some actual power figures from you.

OK Tyson, sorry it took awhile, but I'm finally here to answer your question...

Previous personal best on that climb was 29:14 on 07/28/05, in '06 I didn't break my PB, but almost surely could have (by maybe 0:30?) in late December if the weather hadn't turned. To refresh, Lookout Mountain here in Golden is about 1250' of climbing in 4.5 miles 'pillar to post', i.e. about 5.4%. It's my TT climb fitness indicator.

By date (all power data is from 20-min*0.95 method on the 300PT, no power data on bike yet):

[Started using 300PT on 12/26/06]

12/31/06 PTest (20-min*0.95) = 209.7w, 82.4 Kg
01/02/07 re-test (fresh) = 234w, 81.6 Kg
01/09/07 = 238.5w, 81.1 Kg
01/21/07 = 256.4w, 79.5 Kg
01/28/07 = 253.7w, 78.2 Kg
02/05/07 = 27:44 (PB by -1:30), 79.9 Kg [kreuzotter.de calc = 269w @9.72mph]
02/10/07 = 268.1w, 78.1 Kg [last power test]
02/10/07 = 27:44 (PB by -1:30), 79.9 Kg
03/05/07 = 26:19 (PB by -1:18), 79.0 Kg
03/21/07 = 24:53 (PB by -1:27), 78.2 Kg [kreuzotter.de calc = 308w @10.87mph]

The calculated 269w (from http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm) on 2/05/07 compares pretty favorably with my last power test, which was 268.1w, 5 days later on 2/10/07. Interesting that they appear to correlate; I really need to do a power test on the 300PT in the next few days to see where I'm at. That thing has changed my life.

So, today's ride pretty much broke what my race-goal was going to be for the 'Pillar-to-Post' race in early May. I guess I need to set a new goal... My average speed of 10.87 mph is about what I need for the hour up Mt. Diablo (to break an hour), but that's another thread...

Hope all are well!

-J\V

 

[NomadVW]

Well, I couldn't exactly let this thread wander off into oblivion so I'm bumping it for the sake of bumping it.Good week of training for me so far. Hopefully the rain holds off for a bit tomorrow so I can get out and get my L5 work in.

 

[watts4speed]

Time will tell - hopefully.

Tysan, out of curiosity, what's your threshold power at now? Have you seen any year over year improvement?