It's killing me but..........

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by Sillyoldtwit, Jan 24, 2006.

  1. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit New Member

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    This was the line up of the 300 riders at last year's Fukui ride.

    [​IMG]

    And the profile of the course this year.

    [​IMG]

    And some more photos from last year.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     


  2. DesFlurane

    DesFlurane New Member

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    Are there any flat parts :eek:
     
  3. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit New Member

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    Yes, but if you blink you'll miss them!:D
     
  4. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit New Member

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    I think I've finally got the right combination (for me) of accessories.

    The Sidi shoes are great and so comfortable (RD's advice)

    I'm over the moon with the Michelin Pro tires. A little squishy on sharp corners but overall fantastic. I've never looked back since binning the Hutchinson crap tyres. (which besides slowing me down, were forever puncturing)

    Yesterday did 115 Kilometres using a Fizik saddle the LBS lent me - great!
    Binned the Specialized saddle.

    All I need now is a power meter, a pair of younger legs, a new heart and lungs and there will be no stopping me.

    I shall be able to stand on the winners podium and say. [​IMG]
    TYSON:D
     
  5. NomadVW

    NomadVW New Member

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    The power meter certainly doesn't hurt! NomadVW FTW yesterday!

    http://www.cycleiwakuni.com/blog/index.php?id=158
     
  6. curlew

    curlew New Member

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    Sounds like your bike and gear are set to go. So, we're two weeks out. Based on your experience last year, (besides taking off the sunglasses before you enter the "tunnel of love"), are you going to try to ride this differently this year?

    When I look at the pictures of the starting line there are 4 riders in the front with pink jerseys and two along the side with black and white "holstein cow" jerseys. So are these riders with the same looking jerseys riding this as a team? Do they keep track of team times or just the times of individual riders? Will you and your young riding buddy work together on this? Anybody else in your group, or is this much more oriented around individual times and finishes?
     
  7. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit New Member

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    Well done Nomad, that sounds like brilliant ride. I hope you can make the October Biwa ride. They don't have a date yet, but I think it will be the 2nd Sunday of October. I'm sure you'll blow everyone away. ;) Tyson

    Curlew wrote:

    My first aim is to get to the start early and set off in the first bunch of 20 riders. Maybe I won't be in that bunch very long but still..;)
    Yes, it's everyman for himself (at his own pace - as if he had any choice in the matter)
    Incidentally, apparently The Smoker has decided not to enter. I shall see to him in October around Lake Biwa. However, my young cycling buddy and 5 of his Japanese mates are entered, so that should prove interesting. I know he can't stay with me on the flat stretches, but as you can see from the race profile, there aren't a lot of flat stretches and with an advantage over me of around 5 kilos (not to mention 32 years!:D ) should be interesting. I'm definitely stronger this year - we shall see. TYSON
     
  8. NomadVW

    NomadVW New Member

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    If it's the second Sunday (14th), I should be able to make it. The 7th is out, but only because the 8th is my first fall "A" priority race at Aida Circuit in Okayama. I penciled it on my calendar for the 14th though so I won't schedule anything else then.

    Looks like all is set for me to move back to the states in December, so Oct/Nov are my "get the last good ride @ __________" months. Biwa is one of those places on my list.
     
  9. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit New Member

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    Sad to hear you're going back to the States Nomad. Let's hope we can get at least one ride in together (for the first 2 minutes anyway:D ) before you return to the colony.;)
     
  10. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit New Member

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    I see well over 1000 people have viewed this thread since I last looked, so hopefully some people are still finding it useful in structuring their training, taking on board RapDaddyo's and others advice on how to structure their training.

    With this in mind I brought the thread back to a more 'easy to find' location.
    There's no need to read the whole 129 pages (as if you would want to!), just the first 20 or 30 pages should get you on the right track towards undreamt of improvement on the metal steed.

    Good cycling. [​IMG] Tyson
     
  11. cricketk

    cricketk New Member

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    Thanks for moving the thread up again - this has been really inspiring!
     
  12. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit New Member

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    Well, if only one person gained some inspiration from the read, then it was worthwhile bringing it back.
    Let us know how you get on with your workouts.

    Cheers! Tyson ;)
     
  13. jviter

    jviter New Member

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    It has been a long time since I posted on this forum, mainly because I have been riding so much. But I will say that I did a 20min @300W 2 weeks ago on the bikes at my gym. I think that it pretty close since I used "Power from Speed" from http://www.analyticcycling.com/ to gauge my work up a few hills in my area. My next goal is to do a full 60min @300W for a real test.

    Tyson,
    This theard really help me with my training over the winter. I also wanted to thank RapDaddyo he is the man!!!!

    Jon
     
  14. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit New Member

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    You just posted to make me jealous Jon. With my inferior genes I could only manage 10 minutes at 300W the other day!:D

    But wait until I find a cool gym or purchase my own trainer this summer when I go to England.
    To give you an idea of how hot my gym is I'll explain. Out on the road I hardly sweat at all - just light persperation. After a warm up at 140W of 5 minutes I start my intervals. Within 5 minutes the sweat is running off me in buckets, in fact other gym users say I look like I've just come out of a shower.

    So as I said, just wait! ;) Tyson
     
  15. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit New Member

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    I've just checked in the first time for ages and see that this thread has risen by another 2000 views since I last looked.
    Now, who goes back 6 pages to read a thread? Very few I suspect.
    I think and hope, that people who have read this thread at the beginning are returning regularly (to pages 1 -30ish) to consolidate their understanding of the training methods as advocated by RapDaddyo et al and incorporating said into their workouts.

    Although I'm unfortunately only just ticking over here in England, the power is still there as I discovered on a ride yesterday.

    Can't wait to get back to Japan and 2 hour workouts on the trainer! ;)
    TYSON
     
  16. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit New Member

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    Hi guys, just when you thought it was safe to come out, this thread is back!:eek:

    The Lake Biwa ride was last Sunday – more on that in a minute.



    I’ve decided to continue posting in this thread as it seems it is far more widely read than “It didn’t kill me after all” (by a few thousand views since I last posted)

    For those viewing this thread for the first time and asking what it’s all about, I’ll briefly explain. It started off as a simple question (in Jan 2006) on how to improve i.e. move the faithful steed along at a brisker pace burning rubber in the process. Although the question was asked with oldies like myself in mind, it turns out that it has also inspired many youngsters and newbies to structure their training in a more beneficial way.

    So what’s the difference between this thread and many other threads in the forums that offer excellent advice? Nothing really, except you’ll find many of your questions answered here, all under one roof. (including links to diet, tyres, Andy’s work, etc.)

    All thanks must go to RapDaddyo and others who have graciously contributed to this thread with an enormous amount of useful information designed to help others in structuring their training to facilitate rapid progress (or not quite so rapid).

    I’ve always honestly listed my setbacks as well as my progress as you will see below.



    It is not necessary to read the whole 129 pages to improve your sustainable power beyond your wildest dreams – the first 20 or 30 pages will suffice.

    Anyway, to go back, my month in England (mid July to mid August) was almost a complete disaster. Nothing went as planned, or at least as I planned it. My wife had all the trips around England/Switzerland/Paris mapped out.:( Managed to get in 3 rides up Ditchling Beacon near Brighton (the TDF climbed up this on the tour before last in England) The only other decent ride was 50 miles flat out to a friends one day and a return the next day at a slower pace.

    Needless to say, I seriously detrained again like I did last Xmas.

    So my build back up went as follows:

    Gym Trainer.

    22 Aug 1x15 @ 235W

    1x5 @ 235W



    24 Aug 1x25 @ 235W

    1x10 @ 235W



    28 Aug 1x30 @ 240W



    30 Aug 2x20 @ 230W



    2 Sept Sunday ride 2hours 31 mins



    4 Sept Vo2Max workout



    3x5 @ 280W

    1x2 @ 280W

    1x10 @ 220W



    6 Sept 1x20 @ 230W



    9 Sept Sunday ride 2.45 hours



    All training up to this point was hard work after having detrained.



    Now things started to improve.



    2x20 @ 230W with good fast cadence.



    13 Sept Vo2Max workout

    4x5 @ 280W with good leg speed for 3 of the 4



    15 Sept Saturday ride 2hours 30 min. Felt strong all the way.



    17 Sept 1x30 @ 250W

    1 x15 @ 220W



    19 Sept Vo2Max workout

    1x5 @ 300W

    2x5 @ 290W

    1x5 @ 280W

    1x15 @ 220W



    21 Sept 1x30 @ 250W with high cadence from beginning to end



    22 Sept Saturday ride 2hours 27 min – 2nd best time ever for the course without even really trying. Was doing 40kph at times solo on the flat.



    It dawned on me that the maximum time I was spending on one interval was 30 minutes, which I thought must be more psychological (boredom) that physiological, so decided to do an experiment – see below (24th. Sept)

    Btw, I’ve only listed time spent in the gym at 220W or more. I also did lots of spinning with fanatical cadence at 170-210Watts – up to 1 hour.



    24 Sept 1x 25 @ 270W



    Boredom set in a little early. Perhaps boredom is the wrong word. It seems that as one increases the wattage (intensity) The “what the hell am I torturing myself for?” syndrome kicks in after a certain time.



    26 Sept Vo2 Max workout

    This was definitely a “What the hell am I torturing myself for?” workout.

    I knew as I was walking up to the gym I wasn’t zinging and that it was going to be a murderous workout. Luckily a guy in his twenties got on the next trainer as I was warming up and proceeded to wind it up to 120Watts. I smiled to myself and thought, I’ll show him what real power is.:rolleyes: He probably wasn’t in the least bit impressed, but unwittingly he helped me to do:-



    3x4 @ 300W

    1x2 @ 300W

    Just couldn’t manage the 5 minute intervals today – perhaps L4 @ 270W was too soon for me.

    1x25 @ 170-200W at a cadence of 120.

    1x5 @ 220W at ditto cadence to finish off

    KNACKERED!



    I wouldn’t recommend anyone increasing the wattage as fast as I’ve done over the last month unless you’ve been there before or you chose the right father when you were born, or perhaps you were starting from too low a base wattage.



    One change in my training which has allowed me to rapidly increase my TSS (training stress score) and one I must mention as I’m now convinced of its efficacy vis-à-vis assisting recovery enormously.

    A few weeks ago Wiredued PMd me the following:

    Originally Posted by wiredued

    Hello Tyson


    Here is a message with a link from Daveryanwyoming that was very helpful to me. I use PBJ on Whole wheat with very little peanutbutter and a huge honking glob of grape jelly (as much as the sandwich can hold) as soon as I get off the bike and again 30 minutes later. I wash it down with 1/5 gatorade, tablespoon of raw honey and the rest water. If I remember 60 minutes later I eat something with a lot of carbs. Apparently the glycogen fuel tank is open widest during the critical 1/2 hour and it makes training or racing consecutive days possible.




    Re: Sugar Instead of Protein?
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wiredued
    Hello Dave

    Something you said in one of your posts not to far back has been in the back of my mind. You recommended sugar intake after L4 workouts rather than protein. Do you have a source for this information? It just seemed like an unusual comment to make and I would like to look into it deeper.

    Thanks


    I have a number of sources for that comment, but the one I rely on the most is my wife, who runs a nutrition counseling practice and holds an MS as a Registered Dietician. But back in the early '80s, long before I met her I attended a training camp at the OTC in
    Colorado Springs. During one lecture Dr. Burke showed a slide tracking glycogen and blood sugar levels in athletes over the course of a hard training cycle. The correlation between low blood sugar, depleted glycogen stores and burnout and overtraining really stuck with me. The athletes that replenished their muscle glycogen after workouts continued to build while those that failed to do that suffered from performance plateaus and overtraining.

    Since then I've learned about "the critical half hour" I don't know if I got that from my wife, but she definitely reinforces the notion. Studies have shown that in the first half hour after exercise the body is incredibly good at replacing lost muscle glycogen. During that window simple carbs are rapidly converted to glycogen and stored. Miss that window and it takes two to three times as long to replace the glycogen. So if you've got a morning TT and an afternoon crit like I did in a recent stage race or plan to race back to back weekend days it really pays to get some carbs on board immediately after finishing your ride. All the studies and references I've seen say that some protein helps the absorption process but there doesn't seem to be a good understanding of exactly how much or why it helps. Several popular post workout recovery drinks advocate a 4:1 carb to protein ratio but my wife tells me the research doesn't really point to any specific ratio, you just need to make sure there's carbs and protein during that half hour.

    Here's a web link that talks about this stuff: http://www.carbboom.com/education/recovery.php

    but just do a google on "critical half hour glycogen" and you'll get dozens of good hits to this topic.

    I don't know your background, but I think one reason folks get confused on this is that many folks come from a weight lifting, muscle hypertrophy background. In that arena protein is really important, but the two types of exercise and fitness are really different. In weight lifting the idea is to build large very strong muscle fibers. Each fiber actually increases dramatically in size and that process requires protein. A couple of sets of squats might hurt like hell, but you don't really burn off that much of your glycogen stores so it's not so critical to replenish glycogen.

    Endurance athletes, especially cyclists don't need really strong muscles in terms of peak strength. Lance Armstrong is estimated to have put out about 50 pounds per pedal stroke while winning mountain stages in the TDF. Well just about any healthy adult could do endless 50 pound single leg presses if you gave them all the time in the world to do them. The key is being able to do them 90 to 100 times a minute for hours on end. That doesn't require fat strong muscle fibers, it requires lots of small muscle fibers each packed full of mitochondria to convert Oxygen, fat and glycogen into energy. The process of training for cycling fitness with things like 2x20s and 5x5s does just that, it increases mitochondrial density, it recruits additional muscle fibers, it increases capillary density so that blood and O2 can get to all these fibers and it burns a ton on glycogen doing these things.

    Anyway, that's probably more than you wanted, but google the critical half hour stuff and you'll see that carbs with some protein is a pretty standard recommendation for endurance sports.

    -Dave


    For the last 3 weeks I have followed the quantities as recommended in the link provided by Dave with slight change. Instead of 35 grams of carbs every 30 mins for 4 hours (which I think is a bit of a drag for the average cyclist) I compromised and take in 50grams every 30 mins for 2 hours. Oh, and one large spoon of maple syrup mixed in. It is imperative that the first 35-50 grams be consumed within 30 mins of finishing a hard workout. And don’t forget the protein too!

    What this has meant is that I nearly always come to the next workout raring to go, whereas in the past I was nearly always lethargic after a strenuous workout 2 days before. Almost the Holy Grail for me!

    (I know this has appeared in another thread since I wrote the above, but I think it’s worth mentioning as it is so important.)



    28 Sept

    More or less started tapering for the Biwa ride so cooled it a bit today.



    1x30 @ 250W

    Felt very easy but that’s fine.



    Sept 29

    Usual Sunday ride of 58km (on Saturday)



    Unlike in the past, have done no long Sunday rides to see if it makes any difference on a ride approaching 100 miles.



    2 Oct

    Am definitely in taper now, so in keeping with the tapering philosophy of “continue high intensity but lower the quantity”, I decided to see just how long I could hold 300Watts.

    On June 30 I just about held it for 10 mins with the last minute being out of the saddle.



    1x10 @ 300Watts Unlike in June this year – all in the saddle and a cadence of around 90, whereas in June I ground out the 10 mins.



    After 2 mins rest as a punishment for not doing more

    1x2 @ 300Watts



    Last October before the Lake Biwa ride, could just about manage 5 mins @ 300W and the best L4 workout was 1x10 @ 260Watts whereas on the 24 Sept this year 1x25 ` 270Watts. This all augurs well for Biwa, we shall see. I would like to be able to stay with the smoker somewhat longer than last year.



    The above results so far are tainted with a bit of regret when I think – what if I hadn’t detrained for weeks last Xmas and this summer in the UK? I’m sure I would be doing at least 20 mins @ 300watts now. Still, that’s to come, nothing is going to stand in my way now as I’m all fired up and if necessary I will train Xmas morning this year.



    4 Oct Last workout before Biwa except for L2 workout tomorrow



    1x10 @ 280W felt easy but tapering so quite happy.



    7 Oct Lake Biwa 140km



    The event is put on by the best bike shop in Nagoya (my LBS) and was limited to 70 riders this year.

    Not exactly a race, with 4 rests where you wait for the last man to come in before setting off on the next stage. However, believe me, the stages are no Sunday picnic (unless you want it to be) There are 2 fully kitted out racing teams (one team had tops with something like Lufthalt Nagoya Racing Team in large lettering), and these boys are serious.



    However, isn’t it strange how things go completely awry because of unforeseen circumstances no matter how well you’ve planned things?

    The night before, I meticulously laid out all the things I needed; drinks with various mixtures for the different stages, Powerbars, Gels, bananas, salted Japanese plums, breakfast (cereal) recovery carbs and recovery protein drink etc.

    When I unloaded the bike from the car, I discovered I’d forgotten my computer!

    Then the LBS owner told me he’d had a call from the [​IMG] saying he’d overslept and couldn’t make it.

    I decided neither of these would get me down and I was still going to ride like hell.

    So it’s 8am and we’re off, 10 at a time with only a few seconds gap between each group.

    I started off in the 2nd group of ten.

    Like the last 2 years the 2 teams prefer to start out at the back of the field. Probably to show the rest of us how good they are when they come steaming past.



    After a 2 or3 kilometers, there are 7 of us in the lead group way ahead of the rest and the pace was furious. Although at times I felt like letting go I hung on in there, sometimes going back a couple of wheel lengths but fighting back to make up the gap and told myself continuously to close the gap to 3 or 4 inches, as it is obviously much easier. I was over the moon when I managed to fight back to the pack when they accelerated faster than me at traffic lights. (I’m sure I was generating considerably more than 300watts to close the gap.)



    5ks from the finish of the first stage there’s a nasty 1 mile climb. At the bottom of the climb I was lying second, but when we started to climb the 5 behind me accelerated with their much lighter Pinarellos etc. (and bodies) and overtook me. I managed to pass one and hold on to another. On the downhill I took a few risks, almost losing it on one bend.

    To cut a long story short, the gaps were closed and we finished together.



    3 or 4 mins later Nagoya Racers came in having overtaken everyone except us. [​IMG]



    At that point I didn’t care what happened on the rest of the course as I’d proved to myself I can hang on to a fast pace. Checking on another guy's computer, I saw the average for the 30Kms (I think) was 41.7kph (26mph) ((this was into the wind))



    In the 2nd stage the Nagoya Racers took off first and I tucked in behind them for a long time, but then decided at this fanatical pace I might not finish the whole course, so let go. I still finished in the first 15 of 70 riders.



    I started off casually in the third 55km stage. There were 2 of us in the 3rd group, and I confess to letting him take the lead as much as poss. At one point after I had taken the lead for only 3 mins I dropped back. “Can’t you take the lead for a bit longer”, he said puffing away. To which I replied, “Eh man I’m 65 years old”. He laughed and struggled away at the front. Eventually I took pity on him and without increasing the pace took the lead and to my amazement he couldn’t hang on, and slowly but surely dropped back, eventually out of sight.

    However, more satisfying was when I caught up with someone who massacred me last year (a member of the other racing team) who said something to the effect of - Christ!! [​IMG]



    At the end of this stage they all have a little lunch and for me the wait to start the next stage is too long, so I told the organizer I was setting off and see you back at the carpark.



    Disaster – missed a turning and ended up doing an extra 20kms or so and finished up in the carpark at the same time as the Nagoya Racers, in fact I sprinted in with 2 of them.



    Altogether a very satisfying ride for an old fogey.



    What I really took away from this event was the fact that with another 20 watts or so added to my FTP, I could be right with them next year – I think. But must get in more racing next year – I love it.
     
  17. MY02_STi

    MY02_STi New Member

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    Hey Tyson - I couldn't let a post like that go by without a response ;)

    Like Alex, I had a bit of an 'accident' on the bike on 30 June - burst my L1 vertebrae, fractured my scapula, tore the rotator cuff off the joint, broke three ribs, lacerated my liver (due to the ribs on impact), lots of skin off AND then developed pneumonia after 2 days in intensive care because of all the morphine :eek:

    But what's a few cuts and bruises between friends :eek:

    I've followed your thread from the start ,and that last post of yours brought back some REALLY good memories.

    All I can say is ......................... THANKS :D
     
  18. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit New Member

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    [​IMG] MY, that's really terrible news.:( It's now October, are you back riding or is it much too soon? Anyway, whatever your status I wish you a full recovery. It's frightening when you think what can happen on our fragile machines. I try to shut it out of my mind, but sometimes it's there in the back of my mind when I'm hurtling down a hill (which I suppose I shouldn't be at my age).

    Talking of memories, yes, but sad that RapDaddyo isn't posting anymore. I know it's my fault for taking a joke too far, which I sometimes do and hurt people. I still hope against hope he will suddenly reappear, especially when I crack that 300W FTP barrier.

    Look after yourself buddy and [​IMG] TYSON
     
  19. Alex Simmons

    Alex Simmons Member

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    Yeah - nice work Tyson :)
    But not happy the smoker bailed out - that would've made a great story:(:D
     
  20. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Tyson, you sure paint a good picture of effort and enjoyment of the sport. I enjoyed the "long winded" post. :)


    You guys talking about crashes I have to say that my recent crash is nowhere near the magnitude of Alex or MY02_STi (hope you both are well on the way to recovery), but it has impacted me more mentally than I expected. I have never in the past been impacted mentally like this recent crash and I don't know why. I was very fortunate as I crashed at nearly 40 mph racing two friends down a mountain on September 8th. All the extensive road rash has healed and all that is remaining to heal is a separated shoulder (grade 2) and I am currently doing rehab for it, but as I am riding the shoulder joint is shifting back and forth especially on descents, which is a weird feeling. Perhaps as time goes by I will forget and regain the courage for quick down hills. Everyone around me is also making a big deal about it and though I want to be courteous it doesn't help much for the past several weeks all I hear is "how lucky I am to be walking."

    I suppose it is a time to face this mental barrier. I have been doing rolling hills since the wreck and have yet to go back to the mountains. Actually I can't anyway until my shoulder is more stabil, but mentally I don't think I am ready either.

    All respect to those who have suffered far greater losses and pains to get back on the bike and ride without fear. Best wishes to you MY02_STi on getting back into the groove.
     
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