It's killing me but..........

[PaulMD]

At first glance your TT position looks pretty good. Have you read Andy's neanderthal positioning post on the Google lists? That's a really good starting point. But from your pix it looks like you're close, are you reasonably comfortable and can you sustain your typical long interval power in that position? You might be a tad stretched in terms of the fore/aft positioning of your elbow pads, sorta looks like your upper arms are reaching a bit forward instead of resting nearly vertically on the elbow pads. How does your leg extension compare to your road bike position?

Thanks, yes, I have read the repost of the Neanderthal positioning and the new comments (I even copied it to my online google documents about aerodynamics). Till I saw my pictures I thought that I had to drop my aerobar at least 4 cm. But I think that my 'acromion process is no higher than the origin of the latissimus dorsi". I now have a drop of 13cm (saddle tip to armrest) on a bike with a 14cm headtube (incl headset).

What do you mean with leg extension? My saddle height? My saddle point has the same distance to my bottom bracket, on both it's 74.5cm. Maybe the saddle is a little bit higher, but I am not sure.

Yes, the arm rest are too forward. This is the position I got when I build this bike with the Vision bar in the lowest position with an 9cm stem. I have the saddle 3cm behind the bottom bracket and I don't want to place it more forward. I want to try to get a very aero, still comfortable UCI legal position. But the problem I have is when I come out of the saddle my knees hit the armrests When I buy a 7cm stem my knees will probably hit the armrests more often and harder

I've been working on my TT position this season and I'm getting lower and faster with small changes over time but also trying to find a low CdA position that doesn't sap my sustainable power. Tough challenge. FWIW I rode my first TT of the season with 10cm of seat to pad drop, held roughly 300 watts for the duration but didn't go nearly as fast as I'd like. My seat to pad drop is now ~16cm, my sustainable power has dropped nearly 10% but my times are much faster. The current position has become really comfortable (even the 10cm drop felt really extreme back in April but seems ridiculously upright now) and I'm due for ratcheting down another notch in the adjustable stem but definitely don't want to lose any more power so I'm also doing comparisons to my normal road position to try to find a balance. Anyway it's an ongoing process.

Have you tried the Chung method for comparing position changes? I've been doing at least one day a week on the TT bike where I go around a 20 mile loop that fortunately has no forced stops or overly sharp turns. I try to ride it in the morning with very light stable winds and I've been using that to estimate CdA. I've also done more conventional regression testing to baseline CdA and Crr, but the Chung method is great since you can just go out and train as long as you maintain a constant position and get data as a side benefit. I've seen my CdA drop from ~.28 to ~.24 based on these tests and incrementally lowering my aero bars. I'm hoping to drop another couple of cm over time but I'll definitely stop when lower positions fail to lower my CdA, especially if they cost me even more power.

Good luck and keep us posted on your watts/CdA progress....

-Dave

That's a huge drop in CdA! It's worth to drop 10% of power for it... I am pretty comfortable in that position for less than 30 minutes. I don't know if I lose power at a 10-30min effort. Shorter and longer positions I will definitely lose power but I haven't ridden my TT bike that much to know. I could do a 2hr L3 ride with 270 watts on my roadbike (ok, felt hard last 30minutes) but after 70 minutes of 270 watts on my TT bike my m.glutus said stop and for at least 3 days it did hurt (and it did also hurt my CTL)

You are lucky that you can do the Chung method during 20mile rides. I have the problem that where I live there is always wind. I have searched for a small course to do the regression method when there is no wind. When there is a weekend without wind I will do some testing. Do you have suggestions for 2 other positions?

I will report my progress, new positions and first tests results. 350w and 0.24m^2 here I come!!

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...What do you mean with leg extension? My saddle height? My saddle point has the same distance to my bottom bracket, on both it's 74.5cm. Maybe the saddle is a little bit higher, but I am not sure....

Yeah, I was referring to saddle height, make sure your measurement takes into account the way you sit on the saddle on each bike. I'm centered or even a bit back on my road saddle but tend to ride a bit further forward if not on the tip of my TT saddle at race intensity. That changes the effective seat height a bit so it pays to either use different reference points on the saddle (mid saddle vs. further forward) or to tune into leg extension and leg angles near the top of the stroke at race power.

I don't know anything about your standard road position, but it looked to me like you had a bit more knee angle at full extension than most road riders based on your photos. But that depends a lot on your standard road position and what works for you and I'm just eyeballing it.

Do you have suggestions for 2 other positions?...

Sorry, I don't understand your question. What 2 other positions are your referring to?

-Dave

 

[Felt_Rider]

Try to do an all out 60min timetrial on a course without intersections and too much corners

Your FTP is probably higher than 190 watts. An 2 hour ride with an IF of 0.882 is not "goofing" around

I'm not sure where I could do an all out 60 min TT, but a friend of mine does have a spot for an all out uninterrupted 20 minute test. I hope to do that sometime in September. I have a lot going on at the moment.

I was guessing at 190. I think I am pretty weak

 

[PaulMD]

Yeah, I was referring to saddle height, make sure your measurement takes into account the way you sit on the saddle on each bike. I'm centered or even a bit back on my road saddle but tend to ride a bit further forward if not on the tip of my TT saddle at race intensity. That changes the effective seat height a bit so it pays to either use different reference points on the saddle (mid saddle vs. further forward) or to tune into leg extension and leg angles near the top of the stroke at race power.

I don't know anything about your standard road position, but it looked to me like you had a bit more knee angle at full extension than most road riders based on your photos. But that depends a lot on your standard road position and what works for you and I'm just eyeballing it.

Sorry, I don't understand your question. What 2 other positions are your referring to?

-Dave

My seat is too low? I will check it soon. At the moment my road bike does not have a fork, when it's back I will compare.

With two other positions I mean two different setups to compare with my current version. So I can do a regression test with 3 different positions.

Interesting testing by Andy Coggan: link

 

[Alex Simmons]

You gotta love a thread that started as this one did and is now discussion the minutiae of aerodynamic positioning and performing fields tests with power meters....

Reading how you guys keep looking for ways to improve helps keep me motivated too. And ways that are both training hard and being smart about it.

Tomorrow marks exactly one year since I was released from hospital. I've had my new prosthetic two months now. I originally went many months at home with no prosthetic (open leg wounds post hospital made fitting one an impossibility), then a temporary one before this one. It wasn't until I got this current leg that pedalling become a possibility. I did try with the temporary leg early on but it quickly became demoralising as comfort levels were less than ideal you could say (it got to the point I couldn't stand up without pain).

But that's behind me and my training is coming along OK. 60 days in (or so).

On Tuesday I managed an indoor session for an hour which was basically upping the power through the (RST) zones for 5-min each, have a minute break then come back down again. Top zone was ~ 115% FTP ~ 230W. Ended up with an IF of 0.94, so it should have been hard (it was) or my FTP has bumped up a bit more (quite possibly).

My stump has been a bit sore the last couple of days though and shin skin has taken a bit of hit, so I'm taking two days off, hoping it'll feel better tomorrow. Possibly also a hang over from the standing start accelerations I did on Sunday at the track.

Here's my performance manager chart so far. CTL is approaching 40 TSS/day (60 days ~ 4.7 TSS/week ramp rate). Of course this is on a much lower FTP than normal. Being able to simply burn the kJ to match my appetite is another challenge.

There are days I get frustrated, since I know how much farther I need to improve in order to compete as before. Then I have to keep reminding myself what I've been through and how well I'm going coming from what can only be described as a low point. I'm not sure which is harder at times, the physical challenge or the mental. Getting used to setting performance goals which are much lower than before is a tricky one.

I feel so much better when I ride, so I hate days like today when you know the body needs a bit of a break. I only hope it means I can attack the next session with increased vigour

hope you don't mind the ramble. helps to get it out sometimes

 

[bigwillie013]

@PaulMD and Dave:

But the problem I have is when I come out of the saddle my knees hit the armrests When I buy a 7cm stem my knees will probably hit the armrests more often and harder

This is exactly my problem, hitting the rests with my knees. Is this normal? Do I have to accept it and look at it the way "OK, usually I'm in Aero position and only when accelarating I have to come out of the saddle anyway" or what details of my seating will have to be changed? And I'm using a fairly long adjustable stem at the moment, roughly 11cm. That means sitting shorter will make this even worse.

@Alex:
It's alway inspiring to read about your progress and your determination. So, speaking for me I like to read your "ramble". Keep it up, Dude.

 

[PaulMD]

@PaulMD and Dave:

But the problem I have is when I come out of the saddle my knees hit the armrests When I buy a 7cm stem my knees will probably hit the armrests more often and harder

This is exactly my problem, hitting the rests with my knees. Is this normal? Do I have to accept it and look at it the way "OK, usually I'm in Aero position and only when accelarating I have to come out of the saddle anyway" or what details of my seating will have to be changed? And I'm using a fairly long adjustable stem at the moment, roughly 11cm. That means sitting shorter will make this even worse.

I try to move my body more backwards and higher when accelarating out of the corners. My knees are then further away from the armrests. But I also want to shorter my stem but I am afraid I will brake my patella After my first TT both my knees were blue at the top of the patella due to hammering the armrests. Probably I don't move my body backwards and higher when I want to be fast.

@Alex:
It's alway inspiring to read about your progress and your determination. So, speaking for me I like to read your "ramble". Keep it up, Dude.

Exactly, so do I.

 

[Steve_B]

hope you don't mind the ramble. helps to get it out sometimes

No worries, Alex. I understand the need to vent. I think we all understand.

 

[Pendejo]

Alex, I'm curious. When we have an accident we often are angry, at ourselves, or someone else, or at fate in general. Have you gone through that?

 

[Alex Simmons]

Alex, I'm curious. When we have an accident we often are angry, at ourselves, or someone else, or at fate in general. Have you gone through that?

No.
Should I? Or am I some kind of freak?

 

[Steve_B]

Alex, I'm curious. When we have an accident we often are angry, at ourselves, or someone else, or at fate in general. Have you gone through that?

I know that this was supposed to be about Alex, but I figured I'd share.

After I was hit by a garbage truck and nearly lost my right foot about 11 years ago, I was really screwed up mentally. (I mean, more screwed up than I am now. ) I kept reliving the accident (a near head-on collision - his fault), I had frequent nightmares, I would sometimes uncontrollably cry about what happened to me and in particular, what could have happened to me. I was angry. Yeah, the whole "why me?" thing happened. I got over it though.

I was hit by car about 2 months ago. Much less serious this time and after a few days off the bike, I was back at it. The difference this time? Other than fewer serious injuries, I had more experience. I was just a few years into riding "seriously" at the time of the first accident. I now live on the edge of the city and I've made my peace with traffic and motorized vehicles over the years. I've gotten myself out of some pretty hairy situations. I guess I'm more accustomed to all this vehicular chaos now and I know that they aren't all out to get me. I guess I also accept that stuff like this is going to happen from time to time. So I didn't relive the second accident, I didn't cry or have nightmares. I just got the police officer's report then calmly called up the driver's insurance company and told them "I want money".

 

[Steve_B]

No.
Should I? Or am I some kind of freak?

A freak? Maybe not. Unusual? Probably.

 

[Pendejo]

No.
Should I? Or am I some kind of freak?

Yes, you're a freak. (A good one.)

 

[Alex Simmons]

Yes, you're a freak. (A good one.)

Maybe. Perhaps I can relate another story.

In the early weeks of hospitalisation, we were trying to save my leg, hoping the remaining muscle tissue would survive (I had already lost most of one small muscle). My leg had to be cut open on both sides from knee to ankle (fasciotomy) as a result of something known as compartment syndrome (excessive swelling of lower limb). That was a very tough period. Lots of drug induced nightmares, hallucinations etc. Some really really weird **** but nothing related to the accident.

After 5-6 weeks, all seemed to be going OK and it appeared as though my tissue had responded to the treatment and the doctors decided it was time to close my leg back up.

The morning after the op, my ortho surgeon came in to tell me the news that quite the contrary to what they thought, the plastic surgeon who performed the op discovered the muscle tissue under the top layer had in fact died and the leg was not viable. I remember that moment quite well even though I was pretty weak.

Initially I was somewhat shocked (since I was expecting to learn of the successful closure) and began to feel somewhat faint, eyes falling shut and head falling to one side as the blood pressure dropped.

Doc said "I'll come back later when you're....".

Hearing that I knew instantly I wanted none of that delaying ****, I pointed right at him and said, "stay right there, just give me a minute". That gave me a few secs to get the blood back to my head, reopen my eyes and lift my head back up to face him.

"So, it's gotta come off right?"
"Most likely"
"So when do we do that? No mucking around here, let's just get on with it."

In my mind there was no room for anger or despondency. Just do what is necessary and get on with it. I got the feeling the surgeons don't get that reaction too often.

He didn't give me a specific answer and I consulted the other surgeons (plastic & vascular) to make sure I was OK with the prognosis. That happened over the next day I suppose. Just more delays as far as I was concerned. I had to wait two weeks before they would do the amputation.

It seems stupid but I was more annoyed about not being able to represent my country at the world masters tracks champs than I was about losing the leg (as two weeks before the accident I'd earned the right to wear my country's colours).

Angry? No. Frustrated and annoyed, yes.

 

[Felt_Rider]

I watched intently for Alex's posts and blog entries through the ordeal because I am interested in sports psychology. Through what I read it was an amazing and inspirational to see a person go through and overcome an ordeal such as this and now good to see the beginning of a new adventure going forward.

We often have this saying around the office, "it is what it is" and that is used when we want to change the course and we made an effort to change the course, but it seems that destiny has it is own path that may not be swayed by our influence. There is just nothing we can do. If that is the case might as well look at how to go that direction efficiently as possible rather being caught up using time and energy fighting against the inevitable.

It was good to see Alex chose to get on with it with an attitude of looking ahead and anticipating going forward. In the past I have seen athletes give up much more easily over lesser circumstances and I am not criticizing them, but when hardship came it was quickly revealed their passion for the sport was not as great as they thought. They bowed out with discouragement to a sedentary life giving up what they thought for many years was their passion. So it is refreshing to many of us to look at what Alex endured and yet moved forward setting new goals and overcoming the obstacles in life.


Alex, now that you are getting in full swing of things how quickly is your body composition changing? How far are you from your competitive weight?

I wish I could say mine was dropping. I am hovering around 10% BF so I plenty of room to drop. Now that I am training with a PM I can monitor that aspect a little better with glycogen utilization and replacement.

 

[Alex Simmons]

Alex, now that you are getting in full swing of things how quickly is your body composition changing? How far are you from your competitive weight?

Well my race weight at Nationals was ~ 80-81kg, best form of my life. Maybe 82kg when I crashed. I have been less at 78-79kg in a prior season but never held that level for long. I am 95-96kg at present (and that's minus the lower leg).

While in hospital I dropped down to 65kg. I was thinking about that, basically once my appetite returned I gained lots of weight during a lengthy sedentary period before and after getting out of hospital. So weight gain has presumably been mostly unproductive mass as the volume of exercise I was capable of was negligible.

Issue with body comp changes is the inability at the moment to ride long hours and burn kJ. So far I've been good for about an hour at a go. Had to have a third day off today as leg stump is still sore.

So in reality, I have a long, long way to go. Not only to lose excess mass but to rebuild the quality of mass I had. That in it's own right throws up further technical challenges with how well my leg fits my prosthetic socket. At >$5,000 a pop, these are not items you want to have to replace frequently.

 

[Steve_B]

In my mind there was no room for anger or despondency. Just do what is necessary and get on with it. I got the feeling the surgeons don't get that reaction too often.

Yeah, I bet that they didn't know what to make of you. They didn't send the shrink by for a chat?

 

[Alex Simmons]

Yeah, I bet that they didn't know what to make of you. They didn't send the shrink by for a chat?

Actually they did. But I think that was normal practice. After initial discussion with the Psych team, I had 3 or 4 visits from a psych nurse while inside. They were pretty good to talk to.

 

[Pendejo]

To all of you interested in the psychological factors in performance, determination, and even survival, I strongly recommend the book "Deep Survival," by Laurence Gonzales. Check its description on amazon.com. It's one of the most fascinating books I've ever read. I suspect Alex would recognize himself in the book. One thing it says is that "rule breakers" tend to do better in dire circumstances than do "rule followers." When the doctor says "you'll never walk again," the latter gives away all his shoes, while the former buys an expensive new pair of running shoes.

Another fascinating part of the book explains why very young children seem to have a better chance of surviving being lost in the wilderness than do older, more mature, more experienced people. And it's a mental thing, not physical. And I was amazed to read that many people, when they realize they are lost in the wilderness, lie down, make themselves comfortable, and die. Quickly.

 

[Steve_B]

Actually they did. But I think that was normal practice.

I'm sure it is, especially for amputation candidates. I was just getting at whether they thought it unusual to not be interested in *****-footing around.

In any case, I understand where you are coming from to soem extent. On a purely rational, non-emotional basis - they were going to take the thing off anyway, it was just a question of when. Delaying it didn't help anybody.