Its official -- Landis Guilty??

[Bro Deal]

I think the proof is the the 400 page report that Landis and his lawyers got over the weekend. I think that is why they are going down that road because "there are too many contradictions for the two to be the same sample."

For some reason I doubt the lab's own report shows proof that the lab knew who the samples they were testing belonged to.

It looks like Landis' lawyers are going to point to differences in the analysis of the two samples to argue the positives are invalid. Assuming they can point to actual differences, this seems like a good tactic. I do remember a case involving testosterone where the two samples had wildly different TE ratios, but the athlete (track and field I think) was still convicted.

 

[Lonnie Utah]

Did anybody else see this one?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/sep06/sep12news
Landis camp files motion for dismissal

Late Monday, Floyd Landis' attorney Howard Jacobs submitted a motion for dismissal of Landis' case to the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) Independent Anti-Doping Review Board.

According to a statement from Jacobs, the motion focuses on problems with the tests that showed Landis as positive for exogenous testosterone after stage 17 of this year's Tour de France. In particular, the Landis camp alleges flaws in the carbon isotope ratio test which allegedly proves that Landis' elevated testosterone:epitestosterone is caused by exogenous testosterone.

Jacobs's submission alleges that:

"WADA's own protocols require that all testosterone metabolite differentials provide clear evidence of testosterone usage to find an athlete positive. Given the data, three of the four testosterone metabolite differentials tested in Landis' sample are reported as negative considering the margin of error.


The only testosterone metabolite that can be argued as positive under the WADA Positivity Criteria resulted from an unknown laboratory error and is not the result of testosterone usage.

The one metabolite that has been identified by WADA-accredited laboratories as the best, and longest-term indicator, of exogenous testosterone usage was reported as negative in Landis' urine samples."


​

Jacobs argues that "the single [positive] T/E [Testosterone/Epitestosterone] analysis in this case is replete with fundamental, gross errors. These errors include inconsistent testosterone and epitestosterone levels from testing on the 'A' sample as well as multiple mismatched sample code numbers that do not belong to Landis. In the case of the mismatched sample identification codes, the alleged confirmed T/E data on the 'B' sample is from a sample number that was not assigned to Landis. The differences in sample identification numbers also point to issues in the chain of custody of the Landis sample.



"Clinical laboratories making these types of gross errors could easily find themselves answering to a wrongful death lawsuit, and often do," said Jacobs. "At a minimum, those laboratory errors must go to the defense of the athlete and must result in a finding that the T/E results are wholly unreliable."
__________________________________

Again now whom am I supposed to believe?

 

[cyclingheroes]

My response about attacking the lab wasn't directed at you, and I'm sorry you thought it was. I think your posts on this forum are generally well reasoned and articulated.
I used your post as a reason to point to the UCI as the cause for much of the current propaganda being circulated about the LNDD. To be honest, I didn't know if your statement about the UCI wanting to clean things up was sarcastic or not.

ok, by the way.. it was sarcastic

 

[patch70]

Again now whom am I supposed to believe?

Not a pro cyclist, that's for sure.

Did you donate to the Tyler Hamilton Defence Fund? Did you believe him? Do you still believe him?
Did you believe Raimondo Rumsas when he said the car load of drugs were for his mom-in-law?
Did you believe Virenque when he cried real tears proclaiming his innocence?
Did you believe Millar when he said he's coming back clean yet still working with Dr Cecchini?
Did you believe Heras?
Did you believe Riis runs a clean team whose success is based on their close friendship only, and not Basso's relationship with Dr Fuentes?

Read between the lines. You don't win Grand Tours without "help". Your sponsors wouldn't risk their millions of $$$ on an unassisted GC contender when they're competing against all those other assisted ones.

 

[Powerful Pete]

Well, let us see how good Landis' lawyers really are. I doubt he will get through this one, and am convinced he doped (IMHO, of course), French conspiracy theories or not.

Come on Lonnie, his lawyers are questioning the results and requesting a dismissal of the entire case - but isn't that why you pay lawyers?

Maybe Tyler should hire this Mr. Jakobs also. I believe that if he wins Jan and Ivan will be interested in his phone number too.

 

[MJtje]

Well, let us see how good Landis' lawyers really are. I doubt he will get through this one, and am convinced he doped (IMHO, of course), French conspiracy theories or not.

Come on Lonnie, his lawyers are questioning the results and requesting a dismissal of the entire case - but isn't that why you pay lawyers?

Maybe Tyler should hire this Mr. Jakobs also. I believe that if he wins Jan and Ivan will be interested in his phone number too.

Euhm Tyler hired this guy too..........! And look what happened to Tyler.....lots of smoke by this lawyer, but nada outcome!

 

[whiteboytrash]

Well, let us see how good Landis' lawyers really are. I doubt he will get through this one, and am convinced he doped (IMHO, of course), French conspiracy theories or not.

Come on Lonnie, his lawyers are questioning the results and requesting a dismissal of the entire case - but isn't that why you pay lawyers?

Maybe Tyler should hire this Mr. Jakobs also. I believe that if he wins Jan and Ivan will be interested in his phone number too.

It should be remembered that a lawyer is never concerned whether the defendant is innocent or guilty but how to achieve the best result for their client. Landis's lawyer is not trying to establish Floyd's innocence but he is trying to find areas where he can get Landis off or lessen his penalty. That’s what he is paid to do. An important part of any trial is to whip up excitement prior to going to trail in the media to create pre-trial doubt. In this case the USADA review panel. If they continually read reports in the paper about French conspiracies, poor handling of samples, leaked reports will they start to believe it themselves ? Will they feel the pressure of public opinion ? Will they feel the pressure of the cycling organizations who in part fund them ? Although juries and review panels are supposed to remain impartial it is very easy for them to be drawn into public debate, feeling and emotion. This is what Landis’s lawyer is doing - raising doubt through the media. Its crude but its works.

What Jackobs will argue is that if the lab couldn’t follow protocol in the leaking of information to media outlets then how can we trust the sample ? doubt. This is how the 1999 EPO case against Armstrong was cleared, doubt. However the fact remains that the testing is well proven, water-tight and all protocols where followed by the lab and the information of a positive A sample was passed to the UCI (McQuid’s subsequent remarks are not valid here). Landis will be found guilty and stripped of his Tour de France title and receive a two year ban. It’s over for him.

 

[jhuskey]

It should be remembered that a lawyer is never concerned whether the defendant is innocent or guilty but how to achieve the best result for their client. Landis's lawyer is not trying to establish Floyd's innocence but he is trying to find areas where he can get Landis off or lessen his penalty. That’s what he is paid to do. An important part of any trial is to whip up excitement prior to going to trail in the media to create pre-trial doubt. In this case the USADA review panel. If they continually read reports in the paper about French conspiracies, poor handling of samples, leaked reports will they start to believe it themselves ? Will they feel the pressure of public opinion ? Will they feel the pressure of the cycling organizations who in part fund them ? Although juries and review panels are supposed to remain impartial it is very easy for them to be drawn into public debate, feeling and emotion. This is what Landis’s lawyer is doing - raising doubt through the media. Its crude but its works.

What Jackobs will argue is that if the lab couldn’t follow protocol in the leaking of information to media outlets then how can we trust the sample ? doubt. This is how the 1999 EPO case against Armstrong was cleared, doubt. However the fact remains that the testing is well proven, water-tight and all protocols where followed by the lab and the information of a positive A sample was passed to the UCI (McQuid’s subsequent remarks are not valid here). Landis will be found guilty and stripped of his Tour de France title and receive a two year ban. It’s over for him.

Prosecutors use the same ploy and publically try defendants,sometimes before they are charged with anything. They throw a load of **** against the wall and see what sticks.
The questions about the validity of the test has been floating around for several weeks now.
I would not be shocked to hear a decision go either way,however I believe his racing career is over,no matter what happens.

Your earlier thread about going underground has become reality. A lot of people active in pro cycling have stopped talking and are maintaining a low profile.
It seems the media has proclivity to twist and skew statements. Imagine that!

 

[whiteboytrash]

Right you are. The media is very powerful tool. Not wanting to get political but the "war on terror" is a good example of this. Fear, uncertainly and doubt. Does Saddam have WDM ? Maybe ? not sure but if he did imagine what he could do ? What should we do ? Act ? He could kill our children in our own country ! Let's get him ! Same goes here. Positive sample. The lab is dodgy, mishandles samples, leaks reports to the media, conspires against Americans. What should we do ? Maybe they did fudge the result ? Sample now in question, public outcry ! Free Floyd ! USADA must acquit ! The USADA is anti-American !

You can see how it all starts. Let the process follow its course and let’s not get caught up in pre-trial mud slinging and understand the (e)motives of the arguments.

Prosecutors use the same ploy and publically try defendants,sometimes before they are charged with anything. They throw a load of **** against the wall and see what sticks.
The questions about the validity of the test has been floating around for several weeks now.

I would not be shocked to hear a decision go either way,however I believe his racing career is over,no matter what happens.

Your earlier thread about going underground has become reality. A lot of people active in pro cycling have stopped talking and are maintaining a low profile.
It seems the media has proclivity to twist and skew statements. Imagine that!

 

[rejobako]

Not wanting to get political

Then don't. You lack the credibility and intelligence.

I show up on this dying forum every now and then to see if there's anyone here discussing cycling. It's always the same stale doping debate, and you gnashing your teeth about Americans.

I'll check back in a few months to see if your physicians can do any better in prescribing medication that makes you less of an asshole.

Until then, wipe often.

 

[whiteboytrash]

Then don't. You lack the credibility and intelligence.

I show up on this dying forum every now and then to see if there's anyone here discussing cycling. It's always the same stale doping debate, and you gnashing your teeth about Americans.

I'll check back in a few months to see if your physicians can do any better in prescribing medication that makes you less of an asshole.

Until then, wipe often.

Hey man what you do is your own choice buy whilst you're gone could you chat to you cycliing buddies and tell them to clean up ? They have a track record of using dope and then blaming it on the French when they get stung...... now who is the political one ?

 

[Lonnie Utah]

Not wanting to get political but the "war on terror" is a good example of this.

Hey!

Have you seen my woody?

http://haveyouseenmywoody.blogspot.com/

(Sorry for the hijack!)

L

 

[helmutRoole2]

Possibly, but in that case, the 2005 EPO experiment was so loosely done that L'Equipe could easily have leaked back to the lab who the doping control numbers belonged to. Remember that was a clinical trial of a new EPO method, not a doping control under the usual oversight. In any case, either LNDD or someone at WADA (who funded the experiment) leaked the results of the experiment - which were supposed to be confidential.

In the Landis case, the lab was most likely the source of the leak on the CI test. Had to be - L'Equipe published it on Sunday when the CI test supposedly wasn't completed until Saturday. In order to make Sunday print (the results were printed on Sunday, not released on their website - gotta make that money), the information would have to have been communicated late Saturday night, and would have to have come from someone in LNDD.

That in itself is not an absolute indication of malfeasance, but it speaks volumes about the character of the people running the tests. When one of their primary duties is confidentiality, and they seem to be having trouble keeping results confidential, it tends to make one wonder what else they're being slipshod about.

I didn't know all that. If that's true, then Landis should walk... you know, the same way OJ did: Not guilty, but not innocent either.

 

[Lonnie Utah]

I didn't know all that. If that's true, then Landis should walk... you know, the same way OJ did: Not guilty, but not innocent either.

But you know, that's the whole problem with the way this thing went down. No matter what happens, Floyd can NEVER clear his name, (even if he's 100% innocent.)

L

 

[helmutRoole2]

But you know, that's the whole problem with the way this thing went down. No matter what happens, Floyd can NEVER clear his name, (even if he's 100% innocent.)

L

I thought of that. It's ****ed up. I'm in a haze right now. I used to enjoy cycling for all the doping scandals. This one's got me crossed.