Jan: No Doyenne

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Davey Crockett, Apr 22, 2004.

  1. And judging by the shape he's in with around a couple of months+ to go, he'll have as much chance of winning the Tour as the kelme and Cofidis lads.
    --
    le Vent a Dos
    Davey Crockett
    Six-Day site: http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html
     
    Tags:


  2. "Davey Crockett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]rs.com...
    > And judging by the shape he's in with around a couple of months+ to go,

    he'll have as much chance of winning the Tour as the kelme and Cofidis lads.

    I think Jan is waiting to see how Armstrong does on Friday. If Armstrong
    climbs well, Jan will beging training in earnest on Saturday.
     
  3. Davey Crockett schreef:

    > And judging by the shape he's in with around a couple of months+ to go, he'll have as much chance of winning the Tour as the kelme and Cofidis lads.
    > --


    He'll keep Vino out of the wind in the flat stages.
     
  4. Van Hoorebeeck Bart <[email protected]> writes:

    > Davey Crockett schreef:
    >
    >> And judging by the shape he's in with around a couple of months+ to go, he'll have as much chance of winning the Tour as the kelme and Cofidis lads.
    >> --

    >
    > He'll keep Vino out of the wind in the flat stages.
    >

    Davey slaps his head!!

    Jeeperz I never thought of that.

    Say's ``Now whadda ya think of that Jim Bowie? It's part of the team strategy!!!''

    --
    le Vent a Dos
    Davey Crockett
    Six-Day site: http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html
     
  5. Van Hoorebeeck Bart wrote:
    >
    > Davey Crockett schreef:
    >
    >
    >>And judging by the shape he's in with around a couple of months+ to go, he'll have as much chance of winning the Tour as the kelme and Cofidis lads.
    >>--

    >
    >
    > He'll keep Vino out of the wind in the flat stages.
    >


    Heck, he'll keep the whole team out of the wind.
     
  6. Richard Adams <[email protected]> writes:

    > Van Hoorebeeck Bart wrote:
    >> Davey Crockett schreef:
    >>
    >>>And judging by the shape he's in with around a couple of months+ to go, he'll have as much chance of winning the Tour as the kelme and Cofidis lads.
    >>>--

    >> He'll keep Vino out of the wind in the flat stages.
    >>

    >
    > Heck, he'll keep the whole team out of the wind.
    >


    In a slightly different vein, I really feel sorry for Jan,

    He won it fair and square in 1997 and was always a better rider than the rider who is going for a sixth go-around this year.

    It's just devastating to think that, all other things being equal, he could be going for consecutive win number 8!!!

    Just my two-bits worth from a guy who doesn't care who wins, so long as he's 10 minutes ahead of You-Knnow_Who.

    --
    le Vent a Dos
    Davey Crockett
    Six-Day site: http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html
     
  7. Davey Crockett <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]rs.com>...
    > Richard Adams <[email protected]> writes:
    >
    > > Van Hoorebeeck Bart wrote:
    > >> Davey Crockett schreef:
    > >>
    > >>>And judging by the shape he's in with around a couple of months+ to go, he'll have as much chance of winning the Tour as the kelme and Cofidis lads.
    > >>>--
    > >> He'll keep Vino out of the wind in the flat stages.
    > >>

    > >
    > > Heck, he'll keep the whole team out of the wind.
    > >

    >
    > In a slightly different vein, I really feel sorry for Jan,
    >
    > He won it fair and square in 1997 and was always a better rider than the
    > rider who is going for a sixth go-around this year.


    No. He's not. All things being equal, better riders win races over
    people who are not as good as them. Everybody has a little bad luck,
    but the fact that Ullrich has lost the tour four or five times since
    the year he won says something. Sure maybe Ullrich has more natural
    talent, but if year in and year out he's losing, then he's not better
    than the competition. In fact, if you believe that he has more talent
    then the only real choice you have is that he's a slacker, or that he
    doesn't have the head of a champion.

    Being a better racer than somebody else is about winning more than
    them. Who knows, there could be 20 people who either are racing or
    have been racing that have more talent than Lance or Jan. Maybe they
    don't have the right work ethic. Or maybe they have too many doubts
    and lose because they are weak in the head. But you know what? If
    that's the case, they aren't as good.

    Professional bike racing is about having the whole package. Climbing,
    time trialing, sprinting, suffering in the rain and heat, crosswinds,
    cobbles, short, steep climbs, 20 km mountain passes and having the
    mindset that goes along with it. The best riders just go out and win
    races. The best bike racers win because they are stronger, smarter
    and harder. They win because they make that final counter attack even
    though they feel like they are going to die. That make that attack
    because every nerve ending in their body says "GO NOW!" It hurts
    terribly, but they win because at the moment it mattered most, the
    others were weak.

    If I had a dollar for every bike racer I knew who had an enourmous
    talent, but never went anywhere I'd be rich. Look at the other end.
    Look at a guy like Mike Sayers. We were team mates 8 or 10 years ago.
    To put it bluntly, Mike wasn't exactly oozing with raw talent. He
    got dropped on any real hill. But Mike wanted to be a bike racer and
    he worked HARD! He's been a pro for years now and raced in the
    FUCKING Tour of Flanders! I could probably name off a number of guys
    who everybody thought had more talent who are still racing industrial
    park crits in Nor Cal if they are racing at all.

    Having said that, I have an enourmous amount of respect for Jan, but
    here we are yet again, it's late April and Jan is having to skip the
    harder races because he's not fit enough to finish them. I'm sure he
    will get much fitter, and I'll bet he's on the podium in Paris this
    year again. But it won't be on the top step unless something happens
    to the guy who got his third win of the year today. Somebody else my
    beat Armstrong, but it won't be Jan...

    Kevin Metcalfe
    [email protected]
    Pleasant Hill, Ca
     
  8. lazysegall

    lazysegall Guest

    Davey Crockett wrote:
    > Richard Adams <[email protected]> writes:
    > > Van Hoorebeeck Bart wrote:
    > >> Davey Crockett schreef:
    > >>
    > >>>And judging by the shape he's in with around a couple of months+ to
    > >>>go, he'll have as much chance of winning the Tour as the kelme and
    > >>>Cofidis lads.
    > >>>--
    > >> He'll keep Vino out of the wind in the flat stages.
    > >>

    > >
    > > Heck, he'll keep the whole team out of the wind.
    > >

    > In a slightly different vein, I really feel sorry for Jan,
    > He won it fair and square in 1997 and was always a better rider than the
    > rider who is going for a sixth go-around this year.
    > It's just devastating to think that, all other things being equal, he
    > could be going for consecutive win number 8!!!
    > Just my two-bits worth from a guy who doesn't care who wins, so long as
    > he's 10 minutes ahead of You-Knnow_Who.
    > --
    > le Vent a Dos Davey Crockett Six-Day site: http://members.rogers.com/si-
    > xday/sixday.htmlhttp://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html




    There is a good response to thie, unless of course you are implying that
    lance is on drugs and Jan isn't. If that is what you think then say it
    and be the troll, but just remember that Jan and not Lance is the only
    one who has tested positive for drugs.



    --
     
  9. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Kevin Metcalfe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > No. He's not. All things being equal, better riders win races over
    > people who are not as good as them.


    Kevin, you DO realize that this will be morphed into "Metcalfe said that Jan
    sucks"? Good to see you around. What have you been up to? Doing any riding
    these days?
     
  10. "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Kevin Metcalfe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > >
    > > No. He's not. All things being equal, better riders win races over
    > > people who are not as good as them.

    >
    > Kevin, you DO realize that this will be morphed into "Metcalfe said that Jan
    > sucks"?


    He doesn't suck, there is just something missing that has more to do
    with his mentality than anything else I think.

    Talent is a great thing to have, but I think that most of the people
    around here (r.b.r) have no idea how important the mental aspect of
    cycling is. That is what has made Merckx, Hinault, Indurain and
    Armstrong so great.

    > Good to see you around. What have you been up to? Doing any riding
    > these days?


    I'm doing a fair amount of riding, but not training per se. I'm going
    to make a cameo apperance at the Wente masters crit this weekend, but
    I'm not going near any race with a hill...

    Kevin Metcalfe
    [email protected]
     
  11. warren

    warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Kevin
    Metcalfe <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I'm doing a fair amount of riding, but not training per se. I'm going
    > to make a cameo apperance at the Wente masters crit this weekend,


    Please don't hook me in the sprint. I get scared when you big burly
    pursuiters start throwing your weight around.

    -WG
     
  12. h squared

    h squared Guest

    Kevin Metcalfe wrote:
    >


    >
    > Talent is a great thing to have, but I think that most of the people
    > around here (r.b.r) have no idea how important the mental aspect of
    > cycling is.


    a long time ago i was reading about the mental aspects of racing and
    there was one thing that interested me that makes me think of jan
    (although i'm not saying it's his problem, don't know anything about him really).

    the problem was that even though someone wanted to win, they always
    managed to sabotage their efforts somehow, eg, didn't train enough even
    though they knew better, partied the night before the big race, etc. and
    the solution proposed was that they were doing these things, maybe
    without realizing why, but so that if they did lose, they always had an
    out. what they were really afraid of was that if they did their very
    very best and made no mistakes, what if they still lost? they would have
    to face up to the fact that even their best wasn't good enough.

    also, being *so* good at something that not getting first is a failure
    can't be a great place to be for some people.

    heather
     
  13. TM

    TM Guest

    "h squared" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > but so that if they did lose, they always had an
    > out. what they were really afraid of was that if they did their very
    > very best and made no mistakes, what if they still lost? they would have
    > to face up to the fact that even their best wasn't good enough.


    How many times did you hear somebody say to someone else, 'but you studied
    for the exam - no wonder you did so well'. Fear of failure.

    To turn the question on its head, Pro Cycling has an article in the issue
    with the picture of LA on the cover where he says, words to the effect,
    '*we* are always afraid someone is doing better and more than *us*'. What
    would you think if your buddy at the group ride said something like that to
    you? Moreover, would you let your buddy off with the 'my brake rubbed all
    day', 'i didn't drink enough', 'i gave you the win', 'you didn't wait for
    me' litany without wondering about it?

    My point is that we can pick apart the character of any professional athlete
    and it says more about us than it does them. Sometimes you lose because
    you're slower. Sometimes you win because you're faster.

    Are you guys suggesting that the people who finish ahead of you in a race
    (assuming you race) do so because you don't have the heart or mind of a
    champion?
     
  14. h squared

    h squared Guest

    TM wrote:
    >


    > To turn the question on its head, Pro Cycling has an article in the issue
    > with the picture of LA on the cover where he says, words to the effect,
    > '*we* are always afraid someone is doing better and more than *us*'. What
    > would you think if your buddy at the group ride said something like that to
    > you? Moreover, would you let your buddy off with the 'my brake rubbed all
    > day', 'i didn't drink enough', 'i gave you the win', 'you didn't wait for
    > me' litany without wondering about it?


    i'm sorry, i don't really understand what you're asking/saying. my post
    was about how some people always seem to sabotage their efforts until
    you just want to slap them. i'm not sure what you mean by, "would you
    just let your buddy off...without wondering about it". i *do* wonder
    about it, and my post was about one (only one, and probably not the
    correct one, but it's interesting to me) of the ways that question could
    be answered.

    if it's not interesting to you, that's ok. there's never a lot of stuff
    on this group on how to get mentally tougher so i figure people don't
    want to talk about it.

    heather
     
  15. TM

    TM Guest

    "h squared" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >my post was about one (only one, and probably not the
    > correct one, but it's interesting to me) of the ways that question could
    > be answered.


    No, I agreed with you on that point.

    > if it's not interesting to you,


    It is. That is why I posted. I think you're confused because you're looking
    for the way in which I was slamming you and I'm not. I was saying granted,
    but how do we account for this?

    I was merely stating my opinion that sometimes commentators do a disservice
    to athletes by stating that their physical failures are because they aren't
    champion material mentally. How do we know from the couch who wrung every
    last bit of talent and effort out of their ability and came up short to a
    better man? How do we know that the better man isn't stronger physically
    because he is a basket case psychologically?

    I was trying to lift it out of the LA/Jan conflict and talk about mental
    toughness in general, but like you imply, this is difficult at best.
     
  16. "h squared" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > if it's not interesting to you, that's ok. there's never a lot of stuff
    > on this group on how to get mentally tougher so i figure people don't
    > want to talk about it.
    >


    How trainable is that? In all my years w/ the US team, there were only a
    couple of instances where a sports psychologist was brought in to work with
    us. Most of that focused on how deal with external distractions, such as
    security.

    On my own, I met with a sports psych., but it was for improving focus and
    motivation. I don't consider that to be the same as mental toughness,
    though.

    First, we would need to define mental toughness.
     
  17. Nev Shea

    Nev Shea Guest

    h squared <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > a long time ago i was reading about the mental aspects of racing and
    > there was one thing that interested me that makes me think of jan
    > (although i'm not saying it's his problem, don't know anything about
    > him really).
    >
    > the problem was that even though someone wanted to win, they always
    > managed to sabotage their efforts somehow, eg, didn't train enough
    > even though they knew better, partied the night before the big race,
    > etc. and the solution proposed was that they were doing these things,
    > maybe without realizing why, but so that if they did lose, they always
    > had an out. what they were really afraid of was that if they did their
    > very very best and made no mistakes, what if they still lost? they
    > would have to face up to the fact that even their best wasn't good
    > enough.
    >
    > also, being *so* good at something that not getting first is a failure
    > can't be a great place to be for some people.



    One time that I recall Ullrich giving himself an excuse for losing in
    advance was when he went to the '98 Vuelta saying he was using it to
    train for World's . . . but he won that Vuelta anyway.

    NS
     
  18. Jeff Jones

    Jeff Jones Guest

    "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    >
    > How trainable is that? In all my years w/ the US team, there were only a
    > couple of instances where a sports psychologist was brought in to work

    with
    > us. Most of that focused on how deal with external distractions, such as
    > security.
    >

    I thought "mental toughness" was something that's part of your make up from
    a young age, or maybe something you get in your teens. I dunno, to be
    honest. I do know that although I'm paid (and ride) a hell of a lot less
    than Jan and I'm not a pro cyclist, I still have no problems maintaining my
    weight at a reasonable level for cycling. Of course I'm not the only one.

    I guess the funny thing is that you have to be mentally tough to ride a
    three week grand tour, not to mention finish first or second in it. You also
    have to have the discipline to train yourself to be ready at that level. So
    why is it so hard to keep your weight down?

    OK, I'd better not write him off yet as he has a good track record in the
    Tour. But Ullrich was in better shape and seemed to be better mentally with
    the Coast/Bianchi chaos last year than he is with the old crowd in Telekom
    this year.

    Jeff
     
  19. h squared

    h squared Guest

    TM wrote:
    >
    >
    > I was trying to lift it out of the LA/Jan conflict and talk about mental
    > toughness in general, but like you imply, this is difficult at best.


    lol! that's what i was trying to do too. i'm sorry, i really didn't
    understand what you were saying in your last post. i asked my boyfriend
    to help, but he wasn't sure either. thanks for explaining.

    heather
     
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