Jan: No Doyenne

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Davey Crockett, Apr 22, 2004.

  1. Tom Kunich wrote:

    > "Richard Adams" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    >>Tom Kunich wrote:
    >>
    >>>"Richard Adams" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>>news:[email protected]
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>He'd best watch himself. Jens Voigt is doing pretty nicely in Georgia
    >>>>and has had a pretty decent season so far. Good move to CSC.
    >>>
    >>>You couldn't POSSIBLY be comparing TdG with TdF? Jens won't finish in

    >
    > the
    >
    >>>top 10.

    >>
    >>No, I'm simply stating that other riders are doing very well, much
    >>better after some team changes. Riis certainly seems to have a positive
    >>effect on former domestiques and lieutenants. After all, even Julich
    >>seems to be having a renaissance season. He certainly knows what the
    >>tour podium looks like.

    >
    >
    > Oh, I agree completely with you on that count. Riis is working miracles with
    > his people. He seems able to get the best out of each man. But his team
    > strategy is to get stage wins and he does that by taking guys who are so far
    > back on GC that the pack won't chase them and then having them go on long
    > early breaks.
    >
    > Now, there's a certain genius to that since he has CSC plastered all over
    > the headlines, but that isn't winning the Tour.


    Which could lead back to the fertile "what-if" ground of Tyler Hamilton,
    but that's been beaten to death. I think a healthy Tyler would have had
    Jan looking over his shoulder.
     


  2. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >
    > > Oh, I agree completely with you on that count. Riis is working miracles

    > with
    > > his people. He seems able to get the best out of each man. But his team
    > > strategy is to get stage wins and he does that by taking guys who are so

    > far
    > > back on GC that the pack won't chase them and then having them go on

    long
    > > early breaks.
    > >
    > > Now, there's a certain genius to that since he has CSC plastered all

    over
    > > the headlines, but that isn't winning the Tour.
    > >

    >
    > But of the approx 22 teams in the TdF each year, how many riders have a
    > realistic chance of winning it? If that was all there was to the race,

    then
    > they wouldn't celebrate stage winners or the various jersey holders (other
    > than yellow of course). What reason do those other teams have for entering
    > the race, if not to win individual GC?


    I'm not criticizing Riis's strategy. He doesn't have anyone that can
    challenge Lance and yet he's managed to pick up a mess of one day and stage
    wins and now has probably the second best known team in Europe. The sponsors
    must be deleriously happy with Riis.
     
  3. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Richard Adams" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Tom Kunich wrote:
    > >
    > > Now, there's a certain genius to that since he has CSC plastered all

    over
    > > the headlines, but that isn't winning the Tour.

    >
    > Which could lead back to the fertile "what-if" ground of Tyler Hamilton,
    > but that's been beaten to death. I think a healthy Tyler would have had
    > Jan looking over his shoulder.


    I think that Jan and Lance are on the same level and Beloki, Hamilton and
    maybe Mayo and Zubeldia. And just within range of these four guys are Basso,
    Moreau and Vinokourov. If Jan and Lance didn't show up we would have a
    wing-ding of a race like Fignon and LeMond in '89 with the jersey bouncing
    back and forth all race.

    I also believe that Landis only needs two more years of good training to be
    at Tour level.

    I'd like to know what happened to Horner on Bald Mountain. He lost 10
    seconds to Lance who isn't in anything like his Tour shape. After seeing the
    speed and power of Horner I can't figure that one out.
     
  4. Tom Kunich wrote:

    > "Richard Adams" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    >>Tom Kunich wrote:
    >>
    >>>Now, there's a certain genius to that since he has CSC plastered all

    >
    > over
    >
    >>>the headlines, but that isn't winning the Tour.

    >>
    >>Which could lead back to the fertile "what-if" ground of Tyler Hamilton,
    >>but that's been beaten to death. I think a healthy Tyler would have had
    >>Jan looking over his shoulder.

    >
    >
    > I think that Jan and Lance are on the same level and Beloki, Hamilton and
    > maybe Mayo and Zubeldia. And just within range of these four guys are Basso,
    > Moreau and Vinokourov. If Jan and Lance didn't show up we would have a
    > wing-ding of a race like Fignon and LeMond in '89 with the jersey bouncing
    > back and forth all race.
    >
    > I also believe that Landis only needs two more years of good training to be
    > at Tour level.
    >
    > I'd like to know what happened to Horner on Bald Mountain. He lost 10
    > seconds to Lance who isn't in anything like his Tour shape. After seeing the
    > speed and power of Horner I can't figure that one out.
    >
    >


    Horner's been on a tear. He just blew past Mike Jones at the Sea Otter
    (and I think Jones took it a bit hard) on the final stage, in much the
    same manner he took the SF race last September. Horner's definitely on
    a hot streak, but I suppose he got a dose of reality. Then again, what
    could Horner do with a team like Postal behind him?

    Interesting article in the latest VN featuring Chris. Check it out.
     
  5. h squared

    h squared Guest

    Carl Sundquist wrote:
    >
    > "h squared" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >
    > > > Even if they had caught up

    > >
    > > 64.2 mph? i think you were safe :)
    > > (although crashing at that speed would suck)

    >
    > It did suck. On the next run after the video clip, the rear tire blew off
    > the rim. You can't use much body English in an enclosed HPV to try to
    > compensate for a tire that's washing out from underneath you, so I ended up
    > steering off the road at about 55 mph. Hit a ditch, flipped over, and
    > according to the CHP officer hired to close the road for the runs, I was
    > airborne for about 45 feet


    you could have been freaking killed!! i hope for your parents' sake (if
    they're still alive) that you didn't tell them about that. i remember
    when once i crashed and landed on my face, i had to see my mother that
    same night. she said, "you're quitting." (i was 31 years old, lol..)

    heather
     
  6. TM

    TM Guest

    "Jeff Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >

    So
    > why is it so hard to keep your weight down?


    Agreed. Fat is fat. I think that one could legitimately wonder about
    Ullrich's preparation this year because it is strikingly different from last
    year. I was concerned about how it can get twisted into him being a flawed
    person. In that regard, he functions like an ink blot test on a bike!

    I think, besides an engine, a rider needs to a have smart plan, believe in
    the plan, and have the work ethic to gut it out. The real question in all
    of this, for me, is has any of that changed for Ullrich this year or has he
    just adjusted his plan for a later peak?
     
  7. Randy Walton

    Randy Walton Guest

    If you've ever been up Brasstown 10 seconds ain't much. It's too steep for
    that too qualify as much distance. Having said that, it's also important to
    note that Horner was basically riding for himself all day. The guy is a
    machine but Lance rode protected all day. Add to that the fact that
    "everyone" but Grajales, Armstrong, and Voigt were simply dying on the
    mountain I think Horner did great. To see how spent those guys were when
    the got to the bottom of Brasstown it's not surprising that a lot blew up.
    When they made the turn off the main road onto the spur the grade's about
    15%. Hincapie had been riding protection all day for Lance and he simply
    fell off to the side in front of us and looked totally spent. He limped up
    after that. Many of the Euro's were creeping past after that as well.

    A friend of mine who raced Cat1 and had raced on Brasstown was at the top
    and commented that it was a sufferfest like he had never seen. Even
    Grajales, who rode that climb twice a week all season to train for it looked
    like he had nothing left.

    "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > "Richard Adams" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > Tom Kunich wrote:
    > > >
    > > > Now, there's a certain genius to that since he has CSC plastered all

    > over
    > > > the headlines, but that isn't winning the Tour.

    > >
    > > Which could lead back to the fertile "what-if" ground of Tyler Hamilton,
    > > but that's been beaten to death. I think a healthy Tyler would have had
    > > Jan looking over his shoulder.

    >
    > I think that Jan and Lance are on the same level and Beloki, Hamilton and
    > maybe Mayo and Zubeldia. And just within range of these four guys are

    Basso,
    > Moreau and Vinokourov. If Jan and Lance didn't show up we would have a
    > wing-ding of a race like Fignon and LeMond in '89 with the jersey bouncing
    > back and forth all race.
    >
    > I also believe that Landis only needs two more years of good training to

    be
    > at Tour level.
    >
    > I'd like to know what happened to Horner on Bald Mountain. He lost 10
    > seconds to Lance who isn't in anything like his Tour shape. After seeing

    the
    > speed and power of Horner I can't figure that one out.
    >
    >
     
  8. h squared

    h squared Guest

    Nev Shea wrote:
    >
    >
    > One time that I recall Ullrich giving himself an excuse for losing in
    > advance was when he went to the '98 Vuelta saying he was using it to
    > train for World's . . . but he won that Vuelta anyway.


    i should clarify that the type of excuse i was talking about is the one
    that lives in your own head that you're not even aware of existing, not
    the kind you say out loud to others.

    and again, like i wrote the first time, thinking about jan just makes me
    think of that stuff, i'm not saying it applies to him.

    bye,
    hh
     
  9. Jeff Jones <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I thought "mental toughness" was something that's part of your make up from
    > a young age, or maybe something you get in your teens. I dunno, to be
    > honest. I do know that although I'm paid (and ride) a hell of a lot less
    > than Jan and I'm not a pro cyclist, I still have no problems maintaining my
    > weight at a reasonable level for cycling. Of course I'm not the only one.


    > I guess the funny thing is that you have to be mentally tough to ride a
    > three week grand tour, not to mention finish first or second in it. You also
    > have to have the discipline to train yourself to be ready at that level. So
    > why is it so hard to keep your weight down?


    > OK, I'd better not write him off yet as he has a good track record in the
    > Tour. But Ullrich was in better shape and seemed to be better mentally with
    > the Coast/Bianchi chaos last year than he is with the old crowd in Telekom
    > this year.


    Well, food is one of the things that people respond to very
    differently. That's why some people never put on weight, without
    making any effort, and others have eating disorders.

    What I never can tell about the yearly "Jan is fat" circus is how
    much of it is cause or symptom. Assuming he's carrying a few extra
    pounds (I can't tell by looking at pictures), is he off the pace just
    because of that, or is it a symptom of not enough training to burn it
    off? That is, is it power or weight? Considering that he is
    consistently about the second best climber in the Tour, it seems hard
    to believe that say 5 extra pounds alone is enough to put him off the
    back behind relative domestiques in the Fleche.

    Of course, getting out there in January and February to train is
    part of mental toughness, as you alluded. I don't know how to
    define mental toughness, either, beyond self-confidence and
    stubbornness. It's possible to think of examples to the point
    of pigheadedness (Hinault, Armstrong, etc) - these guys must have
    had it from an early age. Most of us probably know amateur racers
    who are stubborn, finish-at-all-costs types even if they are back
    markers, and then guys who are strong but will drop out of a race
    if they flat or get dropped or have a mechanical. I dunno if you
    can make one out of the other, but there must be some component
    of motivation that can be reinforced - look at what riders say
    about Riis, or even what Armstrong says about Bruyneel convincing
    him that he could be a Tour contender.

    Ben
    Not clear I'm qualified to talk as I DNFed a Fred ride Saturday.
     
  10. Nev Shea

    Nev Shea Guest

    h squared <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > Nev Shea wrote:
    >>
    >> One time that I recall Ullrich giving himself an excuse for losing in
    >> advance was when he went to the '98 Vuelta saying he was using it to
    >> train for World's . . . but he won that Vuelta anyway.

    >
    > i should clarify that the type of excuse i was talking about is the
    > one that lives in your own head that you're not even aware of
    > existing, not the kind you say out loud to others.
    >
    > and again, like i wrote the first time, thinking about jan just makes
    > me think of that stuff, i'm not saying it applies to him.


    No need to clarify -- all that was perfectly clear in your previous
    post. I guess I mentioned that as an opposite example of Ullrich
    discounting his chances to win but winning anyway. Unless I'm mistaken,
    after he took the leader's jersey in that race, he also said he didn't
    expect to keep it because his team wasn't very good (for that race).

    Also, I was trolling to see if anyone else could recall Ullrich making
    excuses in advance for not winning, at least outside of early season
    races or when his knee was hurt. With no other examples, I can only
    assume that an in-form Ullrich always likes his chances for victory, no
    matter what Bob Roll says.

    Also -- all that stuff you wrote about folks sabotaging their chances
    doesn't just apply to racing. In my opinion, you'll also see people do
    similar things at work, in school, relationships, etc. In layman's terms
    they are called "fuck ups".

    NS
    amateur psychologist
     
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