Jan Slammed Again

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Bill C, Jul 8, 2005.

  1. Bill C

    Bill C Guest

    Altig on Ullrich, "I'm tired of his excuses"

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/tour05/news/?id=/news/2005/jul05/jul08news3
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q1682456B

    Ouch, but nothing that hasn't been said over and over by a lot of
    people. I seriously hope someone is doing in-depth coverage, maybe for
    a book, of T-Mobile this year. It's got to be a soap opera inside the
    team unless they've wrapped Jan in a cocoon. They used to be fiercely
    protective of him, especially against anyone questioning his mental
    toughness. I caught some serious shit and learned not to mention it
    around people associated with the team.
    Bill C
     
    Tags:


  2. AT

    AT Guest

    On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 04:34:15 -0700, Bill C wrote:

    > Altig on Ullrich, "I'm tired of his excuses"
    >
    > http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/tour05/news/?id=/news/2005/jul05/jul08news3
    > http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q1682456B
    >
    > Ouch, but nothing that hasn't been said over and over by a lot of
    > people. I seriously hope someone is doing in-depth coverage, maybe for
    > a book, of T-Mobile this year. It's got to be a soap opera inside the
    > team unless they've wrapped Jan in a cocoon. They used to be fiercely
    > protective of him, especially against anyone questioning his mental
    > toughness. I caught some serious shit and learned not to mention it
    > around people associated with the team.
    > Bill C


    Do you know whether Coast/Bianchi were equally protective of Jan?

    --
    Andreas
     
  3. alan_atwood

    alan_atwood Guest

    All the more reason why they should make Vino the leader when the race
    hits the Alps. I think Vino's the biggest threat to Lance's #7.

    Alan
     
  4. Laz

    Laz Guest

    "Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Altig on Ullrich, "I'm tired of his excuses"
    >
    >

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/tour05/news/?id=/news/2005/jul05/jul08news3
    > http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q1682456B
    >
    > Ouch, but nothing that hasn't been said over and over by a lot of
    > people. I seriously hope someone is doing in-depth coverage, maybe for
    > a book, of T-Mobile this year. It's got to be a soap opera inside the
    > team unless they've wrapped Jan in a cocoon. They used to be fiercely
    > protective of him, especially against anyone questioning his mental
    > toughness. I caught some serious shit and learned not to mention it
    > around people associated with the team.
    > Bill C
    >


    Why don't you tell us ? No one here is associated with the team . ( Jan
    claims to being abducted nightly by aliens that walk through walls and now
    has a problem sitting ????? )

    Laz
     
  5. Bill C

    Bill C Guest

    Laz wrote:
    > "Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > Altig on Ullrich, "I'm tired of his excuses"
    > >
    > >

    > http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/tour05/news/?id=/news/2005/jul05/jul08news3
    > > http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q1682456B
    > >
    > > Ouch, but nothing that hasn't been said over and over by a lot of
    > > people. I seriously hope someone is doing in-depth coverage, maybe for
    > > a book, of T-Mobile this year. It's got to be a soap opera inside the
    > > team unless they've wrapped Jan in a cocoon. They used to be fiercely
    > > protective of him, especially against anyone questioning his mental
    > > toughness. I caught some serious shit and learned not to mention it
    > > around people associated with the team.
    > > Bill C
    > >

    >
    > Why don't you tell us ? No one here is associated with the team . ( Jan
    > claims to being abducted nightly by aliens that walk through walls and now
    > has a problem sitting ????? )
    >
    > Laz

    What's to tell? Jan has never had the burning drive to win, or avoid
    losing which might be even stronger. They had a hard time getting him
    to stay in shape and control his diet. He would work hard when they
    stayed on him and got him into a planned program.
    Everyone I know loved him as a person and that was part of why they
    were so defensive, but he has always needed his personal support group
    around him to keep him on track. I think he'd be more than happy to
    retire and open a club somewhere if he didn't think that would
    disappoint the people around him.
    Hell I'm one of his biggest fans and he makes me nuts, but he is the
    person he is and that's not going to change. What kills me, and the
    others is the potential that we think is there, that has never been
    realized. Where with Lance he has squeezed every last drop of ability
    he has out for the event he cares about.
    I'm not condemning Jan, just saying that my impression is that he
    doesn't have a burning drive and has trouble staying focused on the
    level of training and racing he'd need to beat Lance so they do
    everything they can to keep him going the right direction and not
    getting distracted.
    I'm not sure what happened with Coast. I was already back here in the
    States and didn't ask because it was probably a pretty sore subject.
    Like I've said I'm pretty much out of the loop now though I talk to a
    couple of people occasionally, but that's more friends and family
    stuff. I'm mostly going on past knowledge of what the situation was,
    and it seems to be that not much has changed except that people are
    being more open about it now.
    Bill C
     
  6. Bill C wrote:
    > Laz wrote:
    > What's to tell? Jan has never had the burning drive to win, or avoid
    > losing which might be even stronger. They had a hard time getting him
    > to stay in shape and control his diet. He would work hard when they
    > stayed on him and got him into a planned program.
    > Everyone I know loved him as a person and that was part of why they
    > were so defensive, but he has always needed his personal support group
    > around him to keep him on track. (snip)


    > What kills me, and the
    > others is the potential that we think is there, that has never been
    > realized. Where with Lance he has squeezed every last drop of ability
    > he has out for the event he cares about.
    > I'm not condemning Jan, just saying that my impression is that he
    > doesn't have a burning drive and has trouble staying focused on the
    > level of training and racing he'd need to beat Lance so they do
    > everything they can to keep him going the right direction and not
    > getting distracted.


    Somewhat of a conundrum, no? Armstrong, with drive to not lose that
    makes him hard to live with for some people, or Jan, whom people like
    except for his lack of an Armstrong-like drive to win. Ain't life
    funny? --TP
     
  7. trg

    trg Guest

    <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email protected]...
    |
    |
    | Bill C wrote:
    | > Laz wrote:
    | > What's to tell? Jan has never had the burning drive to win, or avoid
    | > losing which might be even stronger. They had a hard time getting him
    | > to stay in shape and control his diet. He would work hard when they
    | > stayed on him and got him into a planned program.
    | > Everyone I know loved him as a person and that was part of why they
    | > were so defensive, but he has always needed his personal support group
    | > around him to keep him on track. (snip)
    |
    | > What kills me, and the
    | > others is the potential that we think is there, that has never been
    | > realized. Where with Lance he has squeezed every last drop of ability
    | > he has out for the event he cares about.
    | > I'm not condemning Jan, just saying that my impression is that he
    | > doesn't have a burning drive and has trouble staying focused on the
    | > level of training and racing he'd need to beat Lance so they do
    | > everything they can to keep him going the right direction and not
    | > getting distracted.
    |
    | Somewhat of a conundrum, no? Armstrong, with drive to not lose that
    | makes him hard to live with for some people, or Jan, whom people like
    | except for his lack of an Armstrong-like drive to win. Ain't life
    | funny? --TP

    Armstrong's curse, his battle with cancer, tuned out to be his strength and
    somewhat of a blessing in his career.
    Jan's blessing, his incredible natural talent, turned out to be his weakness
    and somewhat of a curse in his career.
     
  8. Laz

    Laz Guest

    "Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    >
    > Laz wrote:
    > > "Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > > > Altig on Ullrich, "I'm tired of his excuses"
    > > >
    > > >

    > >

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/tour05/news/?id=/news/2005/jul05/jul08news3
    > > > http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q1682456B
    > > >
    > > > Ouch, but nothing that hasn't been said over and over by a lot of
    > > > people. I seriously hope someone is doing in-depth coverage, maybe for
    > > > a book, of T-Mobile this year. It's got to be a soap opera inside the
    > > > team unless they've wrapped Jan in a cocoon. They used to be fiercely
    > > > protective of him, especially against anyone questioning his mental
    > > > toughness. I caught some serious shit and learned not to mention it
    > > > around people associated with the team.
    > > > Bill C
    > > >

    > >
    > > Why don't you tell us ? No one here is associated with the team . ( Jan
    > > claims to being abducted nightly by aliens that walk through walls and

    now
    > > has a problem sitting ????? )
    > >
    > > Laz

    > What's to tell? Jan has never had the burning drive to win, or avoid
    > losing which might be even stronger. They had a hard time getting him
    > to stay in shape and control his diet. He would work hard when they
    > stayed on him and got him into a planned program.
    > Everyone I know loved him as a person and that was part of why they
    > were so defensive, but he has always needed his personal support group
    > around him to keep him on track. I think he'd be more than happy to
    > retire and open a club somewhere if he didn't think that would
    > disappoint the people around him.
    > Hell I'm one of his biggest fans and he makes me nuts, but he is the
    > person he is and that's not going to change. What kills me, and the
    > others is the potential that we think is there, that has never been
    > realized. Where with Lance he has squeezed every last drop of ability
    > he has out for the event he cares about.
    > I'm not condemning Jan, just saying that my impression is that he
    > doesn't have a burning drive and has trouble staying focused on the
    > level of training and racing he'd need to beat Lance so they do
    > everything they can to keep him going the right direction and not
    > getting distracted.
    > I'm not sure what happened with Coast. I was already back here in the
    > States and didn't ask because it was probably a pretty sore subject.
    > Like I've said I'm pretty much out of the loop now though I talk to a
    > couple of people occasionally, but that's more friends and family
    > stuff. I'm mostly going on past knowledge of what the situation was,
    > and it seems to be that not much has changed except that people are
    > being more open about it now.
    > Bill C
    >


    Oh. Yeah, I knew he was too casual about the tour. I thought you inferred
    you had some inside info, like he cries or something like that. I am a bit
    down on him since after he won his tour he said he wanted to win the tour 5
    times. I thought it was a very silly thing to say, and I think it serves him
    right for the casual disrespect to Indurain and Merkx of his statement.

    Laz
     
  9. Sandy

    Sandy Guest

    Dans le message de news:[email protected],
    trg <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
    >
    > Armstrong's curse, his battle with cancer, tuned out to be his
    > strength and somewhat of a blessing in his career.
    > Jan's blessing, his incredible natural talent, turned out to be his
    > weakness and somewhat of a curse in his career.


    A friend of Madison Avenue !

    Hey, Armstrong is neither the first nor one of the few to regain a life
    after cancer. Partly, it's because it was his balls that were affected,
    that he gets extra attention - gets us all goose-pimply. He's also not the
    only one to rise even higher, resolute after a cure. But he makes the play
    with that, 'cause "It's not about the bike". He is also far from one of the
    many who spend great gobs of time with those afflicted with cancer, daily,
    weekly, on call, all the time. So get over it, and maybe he will, too.

    As to Jan Ullrich, the talent being a curse is a bathetic way of portraying
    this guy. He has a character trait that keeps him behind. Watch him attack
    (when ?). See him pay such close attention to Armstrong, and none to
    himself. He does not have the confidence to ride his own race, to use his
    talent. Not a curse, but an unfulfilled potential, and lots of people are
    that way. But he's a star, and we want to have a pat slogan to hang on him.

    Not to mention (but I will) that there are plenty of people who can do great
    things with little natural talent, and the genetic freaks that outdo us are
    not good subjects of idolatry. They just got the genes and did good stuff
    with them.

    Do you write ad copy ?
    --
    Bonne route !

    Sandy
    Vreneuil-sur-Seine FR
     
  10. Sandy wrote:

    > Partly, it's because it was his balls that were affected,
    > that he gets extra attention - gets us all goose-pimply.


    The testicle was easy to remove. "I have testicle cancer" was not an
    easy thing to say on TV; increasing awareness and opening discussion
    about self-examination, a great taboo in the manly world of manly male
    culture was a benefit of his being open about his disease. But it was
    the brain/abdomen/lungs part that was really scary. Well, they only
    took a small part of his brain as it turned out...

    >He's also not the
    > only one to rise even higher, resolute after a cure. But he makes the play
    > with that, 'cause "It's not about the bike". He is also far from one of the
    > many who spend great gobs of time with those afflicted with cancer, daily,
    > weekly, on call, all the time. So get over it, and maybe he will, too.


    Yeah, he could have "played" that all differently. No public
    pronouncements, no Lance Armstrong Foundation, no yellow bands raising
    millions, no "awareness" (the self exam thing again), no Tour for hours
    and hours on OLN. I can only tell you that since Lance has been around
    Austin, he's been known for being open and accessible; less so in
    recent times, but that is partly reaction to (put plainly) some rough
    treatment.

    > As to Jan Ullrich, (snnnip) he's a star, and we want to have >a pat slogan to hang on him.


    "Underachiever" doesn't fit? You know: known big, big talent, rides
    tough, but doesn't study hard enough for the final exam to get to the
    top of the class? The "curse" is the backlash he gets for not being as
    driven as Lance AFAIC. This is not "bathos" or feeling sorry for him by
    any means. He's just an imperfect human; the spotlight is on because of
    his job. He probably could have quit after last year, but he didn't.
    Takes guts, in spite of the "contractual obligations" and large
    paydays.

    > Not to mention (but I will) that there are plenty of people who can do great
    > things with little natural talent, and the genetic freaks that outdo us are
    > not good subjects of idolatry.


    I agree. Let's get into the genome and fix that quirk of human nature
    as quickly as possible.

    > Do you write ad copy ?


    You know a company that's hiring? --TP
     
  11. Bill C

    Bill C Guest

    Laz wrote:
    > "Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > >
    > >
    > > Laz wrote:
    > > > "Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > news:[email protected]
    > > > > Altig on Ullrich, "I'm tired of his excuses"
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > >

    > http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/tour05/news/?id=/news/2005/jul05/jul08news3
    > > > > http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q1682456B
    > > > >
    > > > > Ouch, but nothing that hasn't been said over and over by a lot of
    > > > > people. I seriously hope someone is doing in-depth coverage, maybe for
    > > > > a book, of T-Mobile this year. It's got to be a soap opera inside the
    > > > > team unless they've wrapped Jan in a cocoon. They used to be fiercely
    > > > > protective of him, especially against anyone questioning his mental
    > > > > toughness. I caught some serious shit and learned not to mention it
    > > > > around people associated with the team.
    > > > > Bill C
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > > Why don't you tell us ? No one here is associated with the team . ( Jan
    > > > claims to being abducted nightly by aliens that walk through walls and

    > now
    > > > has a problem sitting ????? )
    > > >
    > > > Laz

    > > What's to tell? Jan has never had the burning drive to win, or avoid
    > > losing which might be even stronger. They had a hard time getting him
    > > to stay in shape and control his diet. He would work hard when they
    > > stayed on him and got him into a planned program.
    > > Everyone I know loved him as a person and that was part of why they
    > > were so defensive, but he has always needed his personal support group
    > > around him to keep him on track. I think he'd be more than happy to
    > > retire and open a club somewhere if he didn't think that would
    > > disappoint the people around him.
    > > Hell I'm one of his biggest fans and he makes me nuts, but he is the
    > > person he is and that's not going to change. What kills me, and the
    > > others is the potential that we think is there, that has never been
    > > realized. Where with Lance he has squeezed every last drop of ability
    > > he has out for the event he cares about.
    > > I'm not condemning Jan, just saying that my impression is that he
    > > doesn't have a burning drive and has trouble staying focused on the
    > > level of training and racing he'd need to beat Lance so they do
    > > everything they can to keep him going the right direction and not
    > > getting distracted.
    > > I'm not sure what happened with Coast. I was already back here in the
    > > States and didn't ask because it was probably a pretty sore subject.
    > > Like I've said I'm pretty much out of the loop now though I talk to a
    > > couple of people occasionally, but that's more friends and family
    > > stuff. I'm mostly going on past knowledge of what the situation was,
    > > and it seems to be that not much has changed except that people are
    > > being more open about it now.
    > > Bill C
    > >

    >
    > Oh. Yeah, I knew he was too casual about the tour. I thought you inferred
    > you had some inside info, like he cries or something like that. I am a bit
    > down on him since after he won his tour he said he wanted to win the tour 5
    > times. I thought it was a very silly thing to say, and I think it serves him
    > right for the casual disrespect to Indurain and Merkx of his statement.
    >
    > Laz

    I think that everything there is to know about Jan is out there. I
    don't think his good points get enough coverage, probably because
    everything says he's just a regular guy who happens to race a bike for
    a living and be one of the very best. It's scary to think what could've
    been if he had Lance's mindset, or if Lance had Jan's natural strength.
    I still don't think we'll ever see anyone win like Merckx again because
    it's a whole different game today, but either one would've been close I
    think.
    He was a kid then and got carried away. I really think Riis was the
    key to his success. We'll never know what would've happened if he'd
    gone to CSC but I think it would've been better for both Telekom and
    CSC if he had gone there. My personal opinion is that he KNEW Riis
    wouldn't let him and his entourage continue business as usual and he
    went for the situation he thought he could control and be comfortable
    in.
    If it wasn't for what we all see, where Jan could've been so much
    more, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. He's easily one of
    the best racers of this or any generation, but he's had a rival who's
    fanatical and totally dedicated. We've been lucky enough to watch the
    story of two of the greats of all time play out in front of us. It'll
    be interesting to see what history says about them.
    Bill C
     
  12. Laz

    Laz Guest

    "Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > I think that everything there is to know about Jan is out there. I
    > don't think his good points get enough coverage, probably because
    > everything says he's just a regular guy who happens to race a bike for
    > a living and be one of the very best. It's scary to think what could've
    > been if he had Lance's mindset, or if Lance had Jan's natural strength.
    > I still don't think we'll ever see anyone win like Merckx again because
    > it's a whole different game today, but either one would've been close I
    > think.
    > He was a kid then and got carried away. I really think Riis was the
    > key to his success. We'll never know what would've happened if he'd
    > gone to CSC but I think it would've been better for both Telekom and
    > CSC if he had gone there. My personal opinion is that he KNEW Riis
    > wouldn't let him and his entourage continue business as usual and he
    > went for the situation he thought he could control and be comfortable
    > in.
    > If it wasn't for what we all see, where Jan could've been so much
    > more, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. He's easily one of
    > the best racers of this or any generation, but he's had a rival who's
    > fanatical and totally dedicated. We've been lucky enough to watch the
    > story of two of the greats of all time play out in front of us. It'll
    > be interesting to see what history says about them.
    > Bill C
    >


    I saw Rominger vs. Indurain as that historic battle you allude to. It is
    sad that so many don't know of or remember him ( Rominger ). I don't think
    of Jan in the same light- I think because I see him as someone who gives up,
    a quitter who never really tried.

    Laz
     
  13. gwhite

    gwhite Guest

    Sandy wrote:
    >


    > He is also far from one of the many who spend great
    > gobs of time with those afflicted with cancer, daily,
    > weekly, on call, all the time.


    What is that supposed to mean?
     
  14. Soap opera maybye. OTOH, Jan won his only tour when he was not the leader.

    B

    Bill C a écrit :
    > Altig on Ullrich, "I'm tired of his excuses"
    >
    > http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/tour05/news/?id=/news/2005/jul05/jul08news3
    > http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q1682456B
    >
    > Ouch, but nothing that hasn't been said over and over by a lot of
    > people. I seriously hope someone is doing in-depth coverage, maybe for
    > a book, of T-Mobile this year. It's got to be a soap opera inside the
    > team unless they've wrapped Jan in a cocoon. They used to be fiercely
    > protective of him, especially against anyone questioning his mental
    > toughness. I caught some serious shit and learned not to mention it
    > around people associated with the team.
    > Bill C
    >
     
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