Jay's new Electra Amsterdam "Fred": a Dutch city bike is reborn inChicago



A

Andre Jute

Guest
Congratulations on collecting your new Electra Amsterdam, Jay. Tell us
all about it (1).

Andre Jute
Dutch city bikes forever

(1) I saw a brief note in another thread about a broken folder, but
the momentous occasion of your grown-up commuter should be proudly
marked in a thread of its own.
 
"Andre Jute" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:2c5f117f-047a-4740-954e-74c8e42fe49c@p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> Congratulations on collecting your new Electra Amsterdam, Jay. Tell us
> all about it (1).
>
> Andre Jute
> Dutch city bikes forever
>
> (1) I saw a brief note in another thread about a broken folder, but
> the momentous occasion of your grown-up commuter should be proudly
> marked in a thread of its own.
>

Thanks, Andre, for your kind thoughts;

I am quite thrilled! with my new Electra, which you and the other RBT
experts pointed me toward. ...when I was going in the wrong direction
(again), I somehow righted myself, with your help. It is parked in my
kitchen - no garage for this beauty! Plus, I need to apply Proofide to this
new saddle, at room temp. My bum is a bit sore from today, but IMO Brooks
saddles are for men, who can handle a little pain. Hey, life is pain...get
used to it!

Comparing the Electra with a BF is not a fair fight. BF would throw in the
towel early on.

I will post pics of my fully customized Electra in a week or so, on my
website. I want to have all the spec'ed stuff in place.

On the way home today, I saw a few bike riders. They were ALL riding quite
upright, with drop handlebars. But for those who want to call me Fred, go
ahead. I like riding upright. I can see what is going on. This Electra is
stylin'.

J.
 
On Mar 11, 2:00 am, Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:
> Congratulations on collecting your new Electra Amsterdam, Jay. Tell us
> all about it (1).
>
> Andre Jute
> Dutch city bikes forever
>
> (1) I saw a brief note in another thread about a broken folder, but
> the momentous occasion of your grown-up commuter should be proudly
> marked in a thread of its own.


Jay also wrote in the other thread:
> I think this 'faux Dutch bike" Electra will be just fine, for what I need.


Of course it will.

But I wouldn't call it a "faux Dutch bike" too loudly if I were you.
The chances are that it was built in Taiwan *right next to Dutch bikes
with famous Dutch names sold to Dutch people in The Netherlands*.

Gazelle make a big, big thing of still building most of their own
frames, but most of the Dutch makers buy their frames in. And a big
name in Dutch bikes in the Netherlands is, wait for, Giant, who
everyone knows is Taiwanese.

The irony is that my Trek Cyber Nexus is probably more of a Dutch bike
than almost anything you can buy in The Netherlands except Gazelle --
because Trek still build their own and, like Gazelle again, Trek fit
custom components from their own component house, Bontrager.

Thus today the Dutch city bike is more of a concept and a geographical
description of *greatest concentration of usage* rather than
necessarily a locus of manufacture.

So, I would say whether Jay's Amsterdam is a genuine Dutch city bike
depends on the geometry and the components a lot more than on where it
was built or for whom. My guess is that investigation will show that
Electra's Amsterdam Royal is a real Dutch city bike, merely built for
an American firm to be sold in the States. I would not be surprised at
all if Lou were to tell us it looks and is specced amazingly like such
and such a Dutch brand name's upper-level bike that just
coincidentally (!) happens to be built in the same factory in Taiwan
as Electra's Amsterdam.

If it looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck, and it quacks like
a duck, and the innards are the innards of a duck, but is found in
Chicago -- it is a duck, but found in Chicago.

AN ASIDE ON ESTABLISHING A DUTCH CITY BIKE MARKETING NICHE: In my
never humble opinion, Electra would be amazingly stupid to enter this
(presenty) low unit sales but high margin and high growth-potential
section of the market any other way than by chinese copy of a proven
design and specification; some of the earlier bikes Jay looked at were
designed by guys who though they were smarter than the Dutch, like Joe
Breezer, and they shot themselves in the foot; Electra will take more
than its fair share of this market in the States, precisely because
they were cautious and unadventurous, mark my words.

Andre Jute
When I rule the world, there will be a tax on hairsplitting, and a
bigger tax on log rolling, because it subverts the political process
by giving pressure groups power over the majority
 
Andre Jute wrote:
> On Mar 11, 2:00 am, Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Congratulations on collecting your new Electra Amsterdam, Jay. Tell us
>> all about it (1).
>>
>> Andre Jute
>> Dutch city bikes forever
>>
>> (1) I saw a brief note in another thread about a broken folder, but
>> the momentous occasion of your grown-up commuter should be proudly
>> marked in a thread of its own.

>
> Jay also wrote in the other thread:
>> I think this 'faux Dutch bike" Electra will be just fine, for what I need.

>
> Of course it will.
>
> But I wouldn't call it a "faux Dutch bike" too loudly if I were you.
> The chances are that it was built in Taiwan *right next to Dutch bikes
> with famous Dutch names sold to Dutch people in The Netherlands*.
>
> Gazelle make a big, big thing of still building most of their own
> frames, but most of the Dutch makers buy their frames in. And a big
> name in Dutch bikes in the Netherlands is, wait for, Giant, who
> everyone knows is Taiwanese.
>
> The irony is that my Trek Cyber Nexus is probably more of a Dutch bike
> than almost anything you can buy in The Netherlands except Gazelle --
> because Trek still build their own and, like Gazelle again, Trek fit
> custom components from their own component house, Bontrager.
>
> Thus today the Dutch city bike is more of a concept and a geographical
> description of *greatest concentration of usage* rather than
> necessarily a locus of manufacture.
>
> So, I would say whether Jay's Amsterdam is a genuine Dutch city bike
> depends on the geometry and the components a lot more than on where it
> was built or for whom. My guess is that investigation will show that
> Electra's Amsterdam Royal is a real Dutch city bike, merely built for
> an American firm to be sold in the States. I would not be surprised at
> all if Lou were to tell us it looks and is specced amazingly like such
> and such a Dutch brand name's upper-level bike that just
> coincidentally (!) happens to be built in the same factory in Taiwan
> as Electra's Amsterdam.



To my knowledge there are no more Dutch bicycle companies who build
there own frames. Maybe some steel models are still made here. Almost
all aluminum frames are specd here but welded in the Far East. The bare
frames come over in large quantities and are painted and put together
over here. Some companies are large enough to customize some parts like,
handlebars, seats, stems etc but most are off the shelf parts from the
parts companies like Shimano. IMHO you can put together a typical
'Dutch' style bike anywhere in the world. Just spec it the same way.
Here are some links to the major Dutch bike companies:

http://www.gazelle.nl/nl/
http://www.batavus.nl/
http://www.koga.com/

A smaller company almost in my backyard is:

http://www.rih.nl/
I visited it several times. There is a nice video on the website showing
exactly what they do:

http://www.rih.nl/site/bedrijf/video/index.php

Just click around and enjoy.

Lou


It has a nice vie
 
On Mar 11, 7:54 am, Lou Holtman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Mar 11, 2:00 am, Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Congratulations on collecting your new Electra Amsterdam, Jay. Tell us
> >> all about it (1).

>
> >> Andre Jute
> >> Dutch city bikes forever

>
> >> (1) I saw a brief note in another thread about a broken folder, but
> >> the momentous occasion of your grown-up commuter should be proudly
> >> marked in a thread of its own.

>
> > Jay also wrote in the other thread:
> >> I think this 'faux Dutch bike" Electra will be just fine, for what I need.

>
> > Of course it will.

>
> > But I wouldn't call it a "faux Dutch bike" too loudly if I were you.
> > The chances are that it was built in Taiwan *right next to Dutch bikes
> > with famous Dutch names sold to Dutch people in The Netherlands*.

>
> > Gazelle make a big, big thing of still building most of their own
> > frames, but most of the Dutch makers buy their frames in. And a big
> > name in Dutch bikes in the Netherlands is, wait for, Giant, who
> > everyone knows is Taiwanese.

>
> > The irony is that my Trek Cyber Nexus is probably more of a Dutch bike
> > than almost anything you can buy in The Netherlands except Gazelle --
> > because Trek still build their own and, like Gazelle again, Trek fit
> > custom components from their own component house, Bontrager.

>
> > Thus today the Dutch city bike is more of a concept and a geographical
> > description of *greatest concentration of usage* rather than
> > necessarily a locus of manufacture.

>
> > So, I would say whether Jay's Amsterdam is a genuine Dutch city bike
> > depends on the geometry and the components a lot more than on where it
> > was built or for whom. My guess is that investigation will show that
> > Electra's Amsterdam Royal is a real Dutch city bike, merely built for
> > an American firm to be sold in the States. I would not be surprised at
> > all if Lou were to tell us it looks and is specced amazingly like such
> > and such a Dutch brand name's upper-level bike that just
> > coincidentally (!) happens to be built in the same factory in Taiwan
> > as Electra's Amsterdam.

>
> To my knowledge there are no more Dutch bicycle companies who build
> there own frames. Maybe some steel models are still made here. Almost
> all aluminum frames are specd here but welded in the Far East. The bare
> frames come over in large quantities and are painted and put together
> over here. Some companies are large enough to customize some parts like,
> handlebars, seats, stems etc but most are off the shelf parts from the
> parts companies like Shimano. IMHO you can put together a typical
> 'Dutch' style bike anywhere in the world. Just spec it the same way.
> Here are some links to the major Dutch bike companies:
>

http://www.gazelle.nl/nl/
http://www.batavus.nl/
http://www.koga.com/

Thanks for the information, Lou. What I thought.

> A smaller company almost in my backyard is:
>
> http://www.rih.nl/
> I visited it several times. There is a nice video on the website showing
> exactly what they do:
>
> http://www.rih.nl/site/bedrijf/video/index.php


A super movie. I looked into the RIH Prisma (city sports with hub
gears and rear roller/front disc brakes) before I bought my Gazelle
Toulouse, but landed it would have cost twice what the Gazelle cost.
But what a beautifully executed bike, especially that smooth welding,
and the conformable leather grips:
http://www.rih.nl/site/modellen/prisma/beschrijving/index.php

> Just click around and enjoy.
>
> Lou
>
> It has a nice vie


Indeed. Thanks for taking the trouble to inform the fans, Lou. We
appreciate it.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review
 
On Mar 10, 7:44 pm, "Jay" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Andre Jute" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:2c5f117f-047a-4740-954e-74c8e42fe49c@p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...>Congratulations on collecting your new Electra Amsterdam, Jay. Tell us
> > all about it (1).

>
> > Andre Jute
> >Dutchcity bikes forever

>
> > (1) I saw a brief note in another thread about a broken folder, but
> > the momentous occasion of your grown-up commuter should be proudly
> > marked in a thread of its own.

>
> Thanks, Andre, for your kind thoughts;
>
> I am quite thrilled! with my new Electra, which you and the other RBT
> experts pointed me toward. ...when I was going in the wrong direction
> (again), I somehow righted myself, with your help. It is parked in my
> kitchen - no garage for this beauty! Plus, I need to apply Proofide to this
> new saddle, at room temp. My bum is a bit sore from today, but IMO Brooks
> saddles are for men, who can handle a little pain. Hey, life is pain...get
> used to it!
>
> Comparing the Electra with a BF is not a fair fight. BF would throw in the
> towel early on.
>
> I will post pics of my fully customized Electra in a week or so, on my
> website. I want to have all the spec'ed stuff in place.
>
> On the way home today, I saw a few bike riders. They were ALL riding quite
> upright, with drop handlebars. But for those who want to call me Fred, go
> ahead. I like riding upright. I can see what is going on. This Electra is
> stylin'.
>
> J.



I'm at the Taipei Cycle show and there are quite a few Dutch commuter
bicycles here, including some real hauler type bikes." The response to
"are you selling in the U.S.?" is always the same, "no, no shops will
take the risk." They sell a lot of units to visitors to the
Netherlands who ship them back.
 
"Andre Jute" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:2c5f117f-047a-4740-954e-74c8e42fe49c@p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> Congratulations on collecting your new Electra Amsterdam, Jay. Tell us
> all about it (1).
>
> Andre Jute
> Dutch city bikes forever
>
> (1) I saw a brief note in another thread about a broken folder, but
> the momentous occasion of your grown-up commuter should be proudly
> marked in a thread of its own.
>
>

I expect to get most of my spec'ed parts from RTC tomorrow (Fri 14-Mar). I
know RBT folks are impatient to see how this bike turned out, but I just
can't take pics of these stock grips. And I need the extra long seat post to
mount my DiNotte taillight and the Arkel seatbag, etc. I do not want to
waste RBT's time on a half-baked Electra. Especially not when this bike will
be a very important part of my commuting life for years to come.

I do think the stock Electra taillight is a puny piece of ****, not on a par
with the other bike components. But I will have redundant head and tail
lights, especially for winter use. So this is not a big deal.

And my bum gets a little sore late in the day. But IMO, one must *earn* a
new Brooks saddle. Wimps buy whatever else, often at greater cost, and
shorter life. Brooks saddles are an acquired taste.

J.
 
Jay wrote:

> And my bum gets a little sore late in the day. But IMO, one must *earn* a
> new Brooks saddle. Wimps buy whatever else, often at greater cost, and
> shorter life. Brooks saddles are an acquired taste.


That's the mantra, just keep chanting.
 
In article <[email protected]>, Jay
<[email protected]> wrote:

> And my bum gets a little sore late in the day. But IMO, one must *earn* a
> new Brooks saddle. Wimps buy whatever else, often at greater cost, and
> shorter life. Brooks saddles are an acquired taste.
>
> J.
>


Paying extra for the privilege of discomfort. Sounds like you want to
earn a case of hemorrhoids as well. But what do I know. Far from
aggravating discomfort, my opting for a B17 actually alleviated it.
 
On Mar 14, 6:33 am, Peter Cole <[email protected]> wrote:
> Jay wrote:
> > And my bum gets a little sore late in the day. But IMO, one must *earn* a
> > new Brooks saddle. Wimps buy whatever else, often at greater cost, and
> > shorter life. Brooks saddles are an acquired taste.

>
> That's the mantra, just keep chanting.


You can gimbal mount Tibetan prayer wheels to your handlebars as well!

Velo makes the most marvelous sporty city saddles IMHO these days:

http://www.velosaddles.com/products_detail.php?cat_id=6&id=33

Nice wide support. Cut away base,so you never bottom out. Cushy with
no numb bits. Narrow nose. Cheap. About $25. Yeah, it's ugly, but you
sit on it.
 
"Peter Cole" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:BotCj.10207$dK3.4686@trndny03...
> Jay wrote:
>
>> And my bum gets a little sore late in the day. But IMO, one must *earn* a
>> new Brooks saddle. Wimps buy whatever else, often at greater cost, and
>> shorter life. Brooks saddles are an acquired taste.

>
> That's the mantra, just keep chanting.
>

Peter, really...I am disappointed. I expected better from you. My 2 yr old
Brooks saddle on my folder will probably last a lifetime. I suggest: If you
and my friend LO are on the same page, turn the page (but don't tell LO).

After a brief break in period, my handsome 2 yr old B17 is tradition and
beauty rolled into one. A work of art.

Please reconsider. If you and LO agree, can this possibly be a good thing,
for your RBT reputation?

For me, I just don't care, since I have already been branded a 'wingnut'.
But I kind of like it.

Wingnut J.
 
On Mar 14, 12:16 am, "Jay" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Andre Jute" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:2c5f117f-047a-4740-954e-74c8e42fe49c@p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...>Congratulations on collecting your new Electra Amsterdam, Jay. Tell us
> > all about it (1).

>
> > Andre Jute
> > Dutch city bikes forever

>
> > (1) I saw a brief note in another thread about a broken folder, but
> > the momentous occasion of your grown-up commuter should be proudly
> > marked in a thread of its own.

>
> I expect to get most of my spec'ed parts from RTC tomorrow (Fri 14-Mar). I
> know RBT folks are impatient to see how this bike turned out, but I just
> can't take pics of these stock grips. And I need the extra long seat post to
> mount my DiNotte taillight and the Arkel seatbag, etc. I do not want to
> waste RBT's time on a half-baked Electra. Especially not when this bike will
> be a very important part of my commuting life for years to come.
>
> I do think the stock Electra taillight is a puny piece of ****, not on a par
> with the other bike components. But I will have redundant head and tail
> lights, especially for winter use. So this is not a big deal.


I have three supposedly "upmarket" Dutch and German taillights which
are all in one way or another unsatisfactory (fragility,
waterproofing, light- and motion-sensing electronics not working well)
-- but the one thing they have in common in that the light output is
wretched. Day and night I depend instead on a battery -operated.
Cateye TL-LD1100 which throws lots of light to the side as well and
offers several flashing modes. It's been so successful in earning me
space on the road that I am planning to install a flashing light to
the front as well, to operate day and night.

> And my bum gets a little sore late in the day. But IMO, one must *earn* a
> new Brooks saddle. Wimps buy whatever else, often at greater cost, and
> shorter life. Brooks saddles are an acquired taste.
>
> J.


I sit comfortably on a Cheeko90 which has no nose; the makers of
Cheeko are earning my money but damn sure not by causing me pain!

Andre Jute
Am I really the last hedonist? Or is just that cyclists are drawn
exclusively from among the sado-masochists?
 
"Peter Cole" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:BotCj.10207$dK3.4686@trndny03...
>
> That's the mantra, just keep chanting.
>

....must...ride...through...the...pain

j.
 
Jay wrote:
> "Peter Cole" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:BotCj.10207$dK3.4686@trndny03...
>> Jay wrote:
>>
>>> And my bum gets a little sore late in the day. But IMO, one must *earn* a
>>> new Brooks saddle. Wimps buy whatever else, often at greater cost, and
>>> shorter life. Brooks saddles are an acquired taste.

>> That's the mantra, just keep chanting.
>>

> Peter, really...I am disappointed. I expected better from you. My 2 yr old
> Brooks saddle on my folder will probably last a lifetime. I suggest: If you
> and my friend LO are on the same page, turn the page (but don't tell LO).
>
> After a brief break in period, my handsome 2 yr old B17 is tradition and
> beauty rolled into one. A work of art.
>
> Please reconsider. If you and LO agree, can this possibly be a good thing,
> for your RBT reputation?
>
> For me, I just don't care, since I have already been branded a 'wingnut'.
> But I kind of like it.
>
> Wingnut J.
>
>


Brooks saddles seem to have either lovers or haters. I'm a hater, but I
know many lovers. When I hear someone say a Brooks must be "earned"
through discomfort, my suspicion is that they are a hater who haven't
realized it yet.

Other than comfort, I don't have any expectations from a saddle. I don't
particularly like the way Brooks saddles look, nor do I care for their
fussiness, heft or price. I might tolerate all that if I found them
unusually comfortable, but to me they're crippling.
 
On Mar 18, 12:29 pm, Peter Cole <[email protected]> wrote:
> Jay wrote:
> > "Peter Cole" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:BotCj.10207$dK3.4686@trndny03...
> >> Jay wrote:

>
> >>> And my bum gets a little sore late in the day. But IMO, one must *earn* a
> >>> new Brooks saddle. Wimps buy whatever else, often at greater cost, and
> >>> shorter life. Brooks saddles are an acquired taste.
> >> That's the mantra, just keep chanting.

>
> > Peter, really...I am disappointed. I expected better from you. My 2 yr old
> > Brooks saddle on my folder will probably last a lifetime. I suggest: If you
> > and my friend LO are on the same page, turn the page (but don't tell LO).

>
> > After a brief break in period, my handsome 2 yr old B17 is tradition and
> > beauty rolled into one. A work of art.

>
> > Please reconsider. If you and LO agree, can this possibly be a good thing,
> > for your RBT reputation?

>
> > For me, I just don't care, since I have already been branded a 'wingnut'.
> > But I kind of like it.

>
> > Wingnut J.

>
> Brooks saddles seem to have either lovers or haters. I'm a hater, but I
> know many lovers. When I hear someone say a Brooks must be "earned"
> through discomfort, my suspicion is that they are a hater who haven't
> realized it yet.
>


Succinctly put! Actually, I don't even hate them--find a B17 out of
the box not too bad, and handsome--but overly expensive and fussy if
one's simply looking for function.

> Other than comfort, I don't have any expectations from a saddle. I don't
> particularly like the way Brooks saddles look, nor do I care for their
> fussiness, heft or price. I might tolerate all that if I found them
> unusually comfortable, but to me they're crippling.


I find that a B17/Flyer is the same way for me after a few months as
well. After it breaks in the slightest, no amount of fiddling with the
angle or tension can get it from becoming "the thing I think about
instead of enjoying the ride". Gimme a Rolls or a Turbo on the
sporting ride, and a WTB or Velo for the city bike and I'm happy. With
the latter, I can stand up every five miles and let the bits and bobs
get some circulation. Avocets ain't too bad either.

What's funny is that I know the theory of why the leather saddle
should be comfy--I've experienced that little window of comfort where
your bones are perfectly supported and you're almost invisibly
supported, but then the dang thing breaks in slightly and the fight
begins...you slide forward, so you push back with your hands, you tire
of that, tilt the nose up, more up, slide around, too much up, numb,
down again...or there's the setting up of a plastic shelled saddle for
me: clamp exact middle of rail, adjust so straight edge is dead level,
ride.
 
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:49:49 -0700 (PDT), landotter
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mar 18, 12:29 pm, Peter Cole <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Jay wrote:
>> > "Peter Cole" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >news:BotCj.10207$dK3.4686@trndny03...
>> >> Jay wrote:

>>
>> >>> And my bum gets a little sore late in the day. But IMO, one must *earn* a
>> >>> new Brooks saddle. Wimps buy whatever else, often at greater cost, and
>> >>> shorter life. Brooks saddles are an acquired taste.
>> >> That's the mantra, just keep chanting.

>>
>> > Peter, really...I am disappointed. I expected better from you. My 2 yr old
>> > Brooks saddle on my folder will probably last a lifetime. I suggest: If you
>> > and my friend LO are on the same page, turn the page (but don't tell LO).

>>
>> > After a brief break in period, my handsome 2 yr old B17 is tradition and
>> > beauty rolled into one. A work of art.

>>
>> > Please reconsider. If you and LO agree, can this possibly be a good thing,
>> > for your RBT reputation?

>>
>> > For me, I just don't care, since I have already been branded a 'wingnut'.
>> > But I kind of like it.

>>
>> > Wingnut J.

>>
>> Brooks saddles seem to have either lovers or haters. I'm a hater, but I
>> know many lovers. When I hear someone say a Brooks must be "earned"
>> through discomfort, my suspicion is that they are a hater who haven't
>> realized it yet.
>>

>
>Succinctly put! Actually, I don't even hate them--find a B17 out of
>the box not too bad, and handsome--but overly expensive and fussy if
>one's simply looking for function.
>
>> Other than comfort, I don't have any expectations from a saddle. I don't
>> particularly like the way Brooks saddles look, nor do I care for their
>> fussiness, heft or price. I might tolerate all that if I found them
>> unusually comfortable, but to me they're crippling.

>
>I find that a B17/Flyer is the same way for me after a few months as
>well. After it breaks in the slightest, no amount of fiddling with the
>angle or tension can get it from becoming "the thing I think about
>instead of enjoying the ride". Gimme a Rolls or a Turbo on the
>sporting ride, and a WTB or Velo for the city bike and I'm happy. With
>the latter, I can stand up every five miles and let the bits and bobs
>get some circulation. Avocets ain't too bad either.
>
>What's funny is that I know the theory of why the leather saddle
>should be comfy--I've experienced that little window of comfort where
>your bones are perfectly supported and you're almost invisibly
>supported, but then the dang thing breaks in slightly and the fight
>begins...you slide forward, so you push back with your hands, you tire
>of that, tilt the nose up, more up, slide around, too much up, numb,
>down again...or there's the setting up of a plastic shelled saddle for
>me: clamp exact middle of rail, adjust so straight edge is dead level,
>ride.



We all have our likes and dislikes. If someone wants a Brooks then
that's fine by me. But, I would prefer to have a less expensive
saddle and be comfortable with my purchase than to have spent big
buck$ and I do mean BIG....comparatively speaking.

Seems to me that a lot of a Brooks is about bragging rights. But
then...once again...that's THEIR choice and not mine.
__o | Every time I see an adult on a bicycle....
_`\(,_ | I no longer despair for the human race.
(_)/ (_) | ---H.G. Wells---
 
On Mar 18, 1:29 pm, Peter Cole <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Brooks saddles seem to have either lovers or haters. I'm a hater, but I
> know many lovers. When I hear someone say a Brooks must be "earned"
> through discomfort, my suspicion is that they are a hater who haven't
> realized it yet.
>
> Other than comfort, I don't have any expectations from a saddle. I don't
> particularly like the way Brooks saddles look, nor do I care for their
> fussiness, heft or price. I might tolerate all that if I found them
> unusually comfortable, but to me they're crippling.


Well, I really like the way they look. It's the retro-grouch in me, I
guess. If I were going to build a bike to be a work of art displayed
in my living room, I'd put a honey-colored Brooks on it.

But for actual riding? No way. I tried several of them (B-17 Narrow,
B-17 Standard, B-66, and purportedly "pre-softened" Pro). I some
cases, I tried them for years. I never got the degree of comfort I
enjoy with a modern saddle. More honestly, I never got them to simply
stop hurting.

Then there was the worry about getting them too wet. And while I'm no
weight-weenie, there was the heft.

I may put the B-66 on the short hop three-speed I'm getting ready to
build. But that's going to be more for art than for function.

In general, no thanks; give me plastic and foam.

- Frank Krygowski
 
Per [email protected]:
>But for actual riding? No way. I tried several of them (B-17 Narrow,
>B-17 Standard, B-66, and purportedly "pre-softened" Pro). I some
>cases, I tried them for years. I never got the degree of comfort I
>enjoy with a modern saddle. More honestly, I never got them to simply
>stop hurting.


There's an aspect of B-17's that nobody seems to talk about.

For the broad-of-butt, they offer more usable sit bone support
width than regular saddles - most of which seem to have a
re-enforced area around the outer edge of the saddle shell.

Take a look under, say, a WTB Speed-V. The intended area for
sit bone support is obvious by the softer grey material and is a
way narrower than the total saddle.

OTOH, with a leather sling saddle, your sit bones can be closer
to the edge - albeit still not on the edge at the widest point.

The dents on my B-17's are about 125mm center-to-center - which
is right on the edge width-wise.

My guess is that I've got a 135 or 150 mm butt. The big Brooks
saddles (210+) are too wide, whereas the B-17 (170mm) just barely
fits. Another 10-20 mm and I'd be in pig heaven.

The only conventional saddles that are wide enough are the
"comfort" saddles - and they're not only too wide, but also too
soft.

Show me a Selle Italia SLR that has 135 or 150 mm of usable sit
bone support width, and I might drop my B-17s in a New York
minute.
--
PeteCresswell
 
"landotter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:c03cd26a-6046-4077-b7d1-980b867143fc@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>

>
> Succinctly put! Actually, I don't even hate them--find a B17 out of
> the box not too bad, and handsome--but overly expensive and fussy if
> one's simply looking for function.
>
>> Other than comfort, I don't have any expectations from a saddle. I don't
>> particularly like the way Brooks saddles look, nor do I care for their
>> fussiness, heft or price. I might tolerate all that if I found them
>> unusually comfortable, but to me they're crippling.

>
> I find that a B17/Flyer is the same way for me after a few months as
> well. After it breaks in the slightest, no amount of fiddling with the
> angle or tension can get it from becoming "the thing I think about
> instead of enjoying the ride". Gimme a Rolls or a Turbo on the
> sporting ride, and a WTB or Velo for the city bike and I'm happy. With
> the latter, I can stand up every five miles and let the bits and bobs
> get some circulation. Avocets ain't too bad either.
>
> What's funny is that I know the theory of why the leather saddle
> should be comfy--I've experienced that little window of comfort where
> your bones are perfectly supported and you're almost invisibly
> supported, but then the dang thing breaks in slightly and the fight
> begins...you slide forward, so you push back with your hands, you tire
> of that, tilt the nose up, more up, slide around, too much up, numb,
> down again...or there's the setting up of a plastic shelled saddle for
> me: clamp exact middle of rail, adjust so straight edge is dead level,
> ride.
>

LO, I hate to say...you are not man enough to ride a Brooks saddle.

Looks like the lesser whatevers will be fine for you.

J.
 
On Mar 18, 8:35 pm, "Jay" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "landotter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:c03cd26a-6046-4077-b7d1-980b867143fc@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Succinctly put! Actually, I don't even hate them--find a B17 out of
> > the box not too bad, and handsome--but overly expensive and fussy if
> > one's simply looking for function.

>
> >> Other than comfort, I don't have any expectations from a saddle. I don't
> >> particularly like the way Brooks saddles look, nor do I care for their
> >> fussiness, heft or price. I might tolerate all that if I found them
> >> unusually comfortable, but to me they're crippling.

>
> > I find that a B17/Flyer is the same way for me after a few months as
> > well. After it breaks in the slightest, no amount of fiddling with the
> > angle or tension can get it from becoming "the thing I think about
> > instead of enjoying the ride". Gimme a Rolls or a Turbo on the
> > sporting ride, and a WTB or Velo for the city bike and I'm happy. With
> > the latter, I can stand up every five miles and let the bits and bobs
> > get some circulation. Avocets ain't too bad either.

>
> > What's funny is that I know the theory of why the leather saddle
> > should be comfy--I've experienced that little window of comfort where
> > your bones are perfectly supported and you're almost invisibly
> > supported, but then the dang thing breaks in slightly and the fight
> > begins...you slide forward, so you push back with your hands, you tire
> > of that, tilt the nose up, more up, slide around, too much up, numb,
> > down again...or there's the setting up of a plastic shelled saddle for
> > me: clamp exact middle of rail, adjust so straight edge is dead level,
> > ride.

>
> LO, I hate to say...you are not man enough to ride a Brooks saddle.


Ridden four over twenty years, long enough to admit I didn't find them
optimal, long enough to admit that I was at times even overtly
sanctimonious about them, long enough to admit that I was wrong.

> Looks like the lesser whatevers will be fine for you.


Enjoy your rigidity in multiple manifestations. Suicide is not
uncommon in the most beautiful manors.
 

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