Jeez what is Lemond's hard on!

[swampy1970]

Still trying to sell the same old lies...

Lemond stated in an interview that his trusty masseur gave him injections for iron and b12 following blood test midway through the Giro. He said this on live TV during the 89 Tour when talking about his comeback...

http://www.bikeradar.com/blogs/article/the-greatest-tour-of-all-by-greg-lemond-22419

If he was anemic due to an iron deficiency then it's b12 and iron thats going to get the job done.

I dont buy the comments that he didnt realise that asthma could have that much effect and thag just 3 iron shots turned his season around in a week. He had the best team bosses during the 80s during his time at renault and la vie claire. The guy isnt that nieve - he knows whats what. He was one of the more knowledgable and better prepared cyclists which is why he was so good.

That part i have a problem is that even if you take iron via injection rather than orally its still not going to fix your anemia within a week and a half. Your ferritin levels may start sorting itself out and the iron stores MAY start to increase with massive b12 combined with vitamin c... But you still havent got tk the point where youre helping production of red blood cells and thats even if you stay off the bike and rest.

I've been down the being anemic route and had to deal with 4 weeks of rest and frequent injections of iron and b12 just to get back to the point where my blood work showed minimum recommended levels - 36%Hct

Everything I've read in placs like pubmed support my thoughts.

I was a big LeMond fanboy at the end of the 80s. I dug his attitude even though he lacked the killer instinct of Hinault. Hell, I had the brancale shoes, cinelli aero potty for time trialing!... But as soon as he started saying he'd taken a couple of iron shots for anemina and within days he's raised his game immensley within days just raised a red flag bigger than the one that sits atop the Kremlin.

The fact that iron doesnt work that fast in severely anemic people isnt a lie - its a fact. Deal with it, Bro Deal.

Conversely, even epo doesnt fit the bill if he started taking tge stuff halfway through the Giro. That stuff doesnt work overnight either....

So what's your take on it - and keep out of the usual deflections keep it purely on LeMonds performance.

 

[hpearson]

SLOVAK

Thanks for the info on the Trek case.

My main point, to stick with the parallel was I a really didn't see Hank Aaron leading the charge against Bonds in the media. Skeptical, yes it was rumored that Aaron was skeptical which makes his actions even more impressive and classy. He pressed on like a gentleman, regardless of his personal beliefs.

We have all seen the video where Lemond cant leave the drug testing conversation alone when press conference was about the fight against cancer. His zeel and inappropriateness over shadow the fact he is probably right about Lance. He's goofy!

Personally I think Lemond views himself as the real hero here and is jealous that all he accomplished was eclipsed by Lance so quickly and by so much. I dont think he can stand that fact that he has, in a way, been passed over to live a live in obscurity due to the timing of his championships and the popularity of cycling in this country at that time. I think he envies the life of fame and wanted that form of recognition. What he got was obscurity and before this is all over it will be infamy if he is not careful.

I remember a story about Bobby Fisher after beating Boris Spatsky where the press said that Spatsky made a mistake at some point during the match. At the beginning of the press conference Bobby Fisher pulls our a minature chess board a begins to show everyone at nausea that even if Spatsky had not made that move he still would have won.

The point is that you won Greg, you were the best during your time but that is all you are going to get. Let the investigators deal with Lance. You dont need to pull out you miniature chess set a prove that you were better or more gifted.



.

 

[slovakguy]

hp, i can only offer that there is more behind the scenes in the lemond-armstrong conflict. i'd like to convince you that it has little to do with jealousy on lemond's part, but i doubt that i would do as effective a job as that which you can find in print. i'd recommend david walsh's "from lance to landis" as a good primer for what has happened in the past between the two, particularly the phone call armstrong placed to lemond which g.l. recounts for walsh's book.

 

[leerobbs]

I would like to understand what evidence can be obtained at this point to convict LA on doping. It appears all the new information is all he said she said. If someone could please explain to me what they can uncover at this point to convict in court. All the tests to this point were not conclusive to indicate he doped. It would appear to me it would take a series of positive tests to convict him. Someone saying they smoked dope with me one time in the back of a truck would not be sufficient evidence to convict me of possession or consumption of marijuana. I don't believe he was clean but they have not produced the sufficient evidence to prove that. If the proof was there I believe the French would have roasted him years ago. Has there ever been a doping suspension where they did not have a positive reading? I don't want to hear about the so called positives from several years ago, if that was a valid issue he would have already been strung up so that is a dead issue. Help me to understand.

 

[leanman]

you know who my idols is? my buddy that lives down the street. he digs holes all day in the heat of summer and cold of winter. then trains. takes his one a day vitamin and improves a bit each year.no drugs in him..of course he wont get any higher than a cat 2, but he's healthy...
eddy merckx = blood transfusions. i read he had a lot of them..tom simpson = dead from drugs. read paul kimmmages book.
greg lemond, lance etc. all cheats.....one year a few years ago, my friend kept a record of who all got caught on drugs starting janurary 1st and there were 20 or so by march...hahahaha. (borrow some of lances masking agents)
now you got he masking agents. blah blah blah. bottom line like the world class doctors said, the same guys would still win, but at a much slower pace..27mph average on day 20... wtf!!
didnt everyone on lances team over the years get busted?? herras, hamilton, landis, etc.. etc... etc..
johan m
basso
vino
etc.....

its a fuc**** joke. i ride to stay fit. these clowns, like all pros in any sport at the elite level cheat.
hope they all get busted...
a younger guy on my team a few years ago went over to live in belgium at that one house that hosts americans for 3-6 months at a time, living their dream out trying to get noticed and possibly make it on a division 2-3 team. he said all the amatures he raced against took so many drugs. he seen it all.
what about that one book "a dog in a hat "its called i think. an american pro living in belgium doing ok, but not keeping up at all with the others on drugs.
bust them all..

 

[roadhouse]

I would like to understand what evidence can be obtained at this point to convict LA on doping. It appears all the new information is all he said she said. If someone could please explain to me what they can uncover at this point to convict in court. All the tests to this point were not conclusive to indicate he doped. It would appear to me it would take a series of positive tests to convict him. Someone saying they smoked dope with me one time in the back of a truck would not be sufficient evidence to convict me of possession or consumption of marijuana. I don't believe he was clean but they have not produced the sufficient evidence to prove that. If the proof was there I believe the French would have roasted him years ago. Has there ever been a doping suspension where they did not have a positive reading? I don't want to hear about the so called positives from several years ago, if that was a valid issue he would have already been strung up so that is a dead issue. Help me to understand.

the federal investigation is NOT designed to hunt down and diagnose old samples or even new ones, it is to find out if US money (federal money used to fund US Team Postal) was used towards doping as in the investigator is going on a paper trail hunt and if it is found that money went to doping or anywhere it was not supposed to, even hinting in the slightest towards doping, well then, i'm sure people can put two and two together and say Lance doped but the main thing is the money trail, not so much hunting for positive tests in doping. federal imprisonment for fraud.

the Landis e-mails opened this door.

 

[hpearson]

Thanks Slov,

I will check it out. Lemond has appeared to be a gentleman any time I have seen him interviewed that is why I dont understand his actions on this one and hate to see it. He can hate Armstrong privately but publicly it just looks bad and frankly allows for the same mistakes I may be making with regard to Lemond's motivation.

LEEROBBS - . Federal investigators use crooks to convict crooks all the time by cutting them a deal and then the house of cards folds up. This is how it works - They drag George Hincappie into a room and start the questioning. They state why he has been ask to appear and tell him they have a few question regarding illegal drug usage during his time at US Postal service. The lead investigator will look him square in the eye and say "Mr. Hincappie, before we start let me assure you that if you lie to me about anything in this investigation you are going to jail, do you understand that? If you tell the truth and the there is evidence of such drug use we will go easy on you and you will probably not have to serve jail time. One last thing is we had Hamilton and Zabriske in yesterday and they have told us everything already, so lets proceed"

I can assure you if there has been wrong doing Hincappie will roll or someone else will and then the house of cards will begin to fall. They do not need a positive test to convict Lance. All they need is sworn testimonies on how they beat the drug testing and it is game over!

If there is no wrong doing Hincappie will merely say " I did nothing, saw nothing and heard nothing" and if everyone says the same, which I personally hope is the case, that will end the discussion probably forever.

LEANMAN - Dont agree that these guys are cheats. UCI and WADA are to blame here. These are just kids when the pressure to dope is placed on then but when everyone is doing it and you want to win and you have a certain trust in a older more experienced and accomplished team director and a large pro contract what do you do. There might be a few that have the moral maturity to say no and walk away from the sport or stay with it starving as a class "C" rider always scraping by financially but as you have so clearly outlined hardly any do!

I think it is easy to pass judgment when you are not actually in the same circumstances. As for me at the age of 19 on the world stage. Yeah! hand me the syringe!

UCI and WADA need to get there act together. They have been fumbling the ball down the field like idiots. They need to protect these kids. Lane wasn't always Lance. Single mom, bad male figures in his life, no faith, no education just raw talent and there are a lot like him.

 

[6fhscjess]

Lemond could have taken EPO if he'd wanted to. It was used in the Peleton during his career. He won the Tour in '89 (post shot gun blast) & '90 & within a few years found himself being creamed by drug fuel no bodies. He could have 'got on the program' if he'd wanted.

If I remember correctly Greg claimed at the time that the lead pellets left inside him caused a condition over time that affected his performance.
As you said drugs were available during Greg's career and even before there were performance enhancing substances.
Greg may or may not have used them but since he is crying so loudly it makes me wonder if he feels quilty about something?
We will probably never know for sure because the testing procedures and many of the people involved in this are questionable and it will always be ones word against anothers.

 

[leerobbs]

the federal investigation is NOT designed to hunt down and diagnose old samples or even new ones, it is to find out if US money (federal money used to fund US Team Postal) was used towards doping as in the investigator is going on a paper trail hunt and if it is found that money went to doping or anywhere it was not supposed to, even hinting in the slightest towards doping, well then, i'm sure people can put two and two together and say Lance doped but the main thing is the money trail, not so much hunting for positive tests in doping. federal imprisonment for fraud.

the Landis e-mails opened this door.

This seems kinda crazy to me. I wish the federal government was so quick to hunt down every dollar that is wasted on everything else! To investigate the possiblity that some of the USPS money was spent on dopping 5 to 12 years ago is a little bit extreme. We have so much going on with the boarder, oil in the gulf, jobs the economy blowing up and we are investigating this...as John McEnroe used to scream...you have got to be kidding! And what will be accomplished if they find a paper trail? How will anything positive come out of it? Every other cyclist who has been caught has been suspended and then they come back, except for Landis, and the beat goes on. I don't think that doping has been eliminated from cycling, baseball, track, football, golf, WWF,MMA, you name it. The only way to stop it is to issue a lifetime ban on the first offense.

 

[roadhouse]

This seems kinda crazy to me. I wish the federal government was so quick to hunt down every dollar that is wasted on everything else! To investigate the possiblity that some of the USPS money was spent on dopping 5 to 12 years ago is a little bit extreme. We have so much going on with the boarder, oil in the gulf, jobs the economy blowing up and we are investigating this...as John McEnroe used to scream...you have got to be kidding! And what will be accomplished if they find a paper trail? How will anything positive come out of it? Every other cyclist who has been caught has been suspended and then they come back, except for Landis, and the beat goes on. I don't think that doping has been eliminated from cycling, baseball, track, football, golf, WWF,MMA, you name it. The only way to stop it is to issue a lifetime ban on the first offense.

it's the way of the world, crazy, but the US government doesn't like anyone messing with thier money, ask the irs, and they'll go after anyone they have to to make that clear. and i agree with you with the lifetime ban 110%, always will believe that too. i don't think Basso, Vino or Landis or Di Luca or anyone should be allowed to race professionally ever again and i personally don't pay them any attention although i did like seeing Basso win the Giro for his cycling ability with Team Liquigas but i can't say i appreciate him too much as we'll just never really believe in him, will never have that kind of everlasting faith and trust as many do Lance as he has never had one single positive test. and those who have been busted shouldn't be out there now such as Basso whom won the Giro, that says a lot for how lenient things actually are and have been, showing signs that things may never change.
as for the doping taking place or rather the misuse of federal money as it pertains to doping 5-12 years and going after it now, Landis came out just months, possibly even within the last month, before the 8 year i believe it is statute of limitations was over, so it was a speak now or forever hold your tongue situation.

i'll try and find and post a few articles you can read.

i think that the only positive that may come from all of this is that the end result for doping might finally come down to the lifetime ban after a few cyclists end up in federal prison if all of these allegations are found to be true.

The federal investigator assigned to this case is some kind of bigshot too from what i've heard, has a few other huge cases of fraud where he has sent a few big shot people to prison for lying to him in previous investigations so the US is not taking this lightly , not at all.

 

[roadhouse]

here's a very lengthy yet very descriptive article on Landis and pretty much his entire involvement with Lance, from the beginning along with a slight insight to Novitszy, the federal investigator.

"Federal investigators are looking into Mr. Landis's allegations. The probe is being led by Jeff Novitzky, a special agent for the Food and Drug Administration's Office of Criminal Investigations who led the investigation of the Bay Area Laboratory Cooperative case that implicated many professional athletes in steroid use."

Floyd Landis, Lance Armstrong and Doping Allegations - WSJ.com

 

[Ted B]

Having said that Greg Lemond is a massive tool, a 3rd grader with a bad temper. Like some many savants that are singular in focus he never developed any maturity. He is a whiner, jealous, self absorbed and insecure. ...

True, Lemond isn't smooth when it comes to tact. I see it as a matter of sour grapes, when in the early '90s Lemond watched much of the peloton gradually drop him when EPO use became widespread. Back then, a puzzled Lemond noted how the average speed of the TdF increased significantly in the span of a few short years. Gee, I wonder why?

As for Lemond never doping, well, at least not to his knowledge. It seems strange that the 'iron injections' he was given after a Giro stage in '89 can suddenly bring one from a bad day into a spectacular recovery. We'll never know what that really was.

Anyway, while I'm not impressed with Lemond's demeanor in all of this, I support a lifetime ban for any rider caught taking EPO, anabolic steroids, blood transfusions, etc., and less severe penalties for banned OTC substances.

 

[vspa]

I think Lemond just burn-out for some reason, in his last 3 or 4 seasons. It's not easy to adapt from being the best to getting drop constantly. Then Armstrong came in without honestly praising Lemonds legacy to American cycling. I mean anyone would have a very hard time coping with all that and feeling ignored after winning 3 tdf and 2 worlds among other achievements...

 

[leerobbs]

I think that Lemond is really hurt because he does not get the attention that he should for his time trial record. He still has the fastest average time trial speed in the history of the tour. This was done in 1989 at a time when Lemond was not doping according to him. Since that time it has been determined that doping has been rampant throughout the pro peleton. With EPO, blood doping, and all other sorts of drugs this record still stands. This is a commentary on his riding ability and fitness. He is without question the best clean rider in the history of the sport. He should be recognized as such and held in high regard for being the only modern day rider who was and is better naturally than those who are doping, or have doped.

 

[pennstater]

I think that Lemond is really hurt because he does not get the attention that he should for his time trial record. He still has the fastest average time trial speed in the history of the tour. This was done in 1989 at a time when Lemond was not doping according to him. Since that time it has been determined that doping has been rampant throughout the pro peleton. With EPO, blood doping, and all other sorts of drugs this record still stands. This is a commentary on his riding ability and fitness. He is without question the best clean rider in the history of the sport. He should be recognized as such and held in high regard for being the only modern day rider who was and is better naturally than those who are doping, or have doped.

How do we know that he [Lemond] was clean? Because he is so vehement when talking about doping? There were a slew of dirty riders in the peleton during his days. How could he ride so strong and beat other riders in the field who were doping when he wasn't? Thats an argument I hear a lot on this forum, but usually in regard to Lance. I personally don't think Lemond doped and I'm a big fan

 

[leerobbs]

How do we know that he [Lemond] was clean? Because he is so vehement when talking about doping? There were a slew of dirty riders in the peleton during his days. How could he ride so strong and beat other riders in the field who were doping when he wasn't? Thats an argument I hear a lot on this forum, but usually in regard to Lance. I personally don't think Lemond doped and I'm a big fan

You made some valid points regarding Lemond being dominant in his day and vehemently denying any doping. It is strange that he could be so strong against others who may have been doping. It is also strange that he still has the record for average speed in a time trial with all the riders during the 90's 2000's doped to the gills. You would think that with todays space age bike technology and all the aero design with a motor like LA or even better Fabian Cancellera (both doped to the max)that record we not be standing. He truly is an amazing rider no doubt. If he did not dope then he proves that someone is able to dominate when not doping. Many as you pointed out have used that argument to cast doubt on LA and his accomplishments. And the beat goes on.

 

[vspa]

i think that ITT tour record was beaten by Chris Boardman ??
Anyway the manner in which Lemond faded in his last years was not normal at all, he simply disappeared from every race palmares throughout complete seasons.

My personal favourite retirement process was Gianni Bugno, even though he failed at winning the Tour having done 2 podium places. He concentrated in winning a couple of classics and other one day races. He was good too in some short stage races still. He finally became team captain on the road for Pavel Tonkov in the Giro d' Italia and even scored one last important stage win in La Vuelta in his last year. All these in the span of 5 or 6 years.

The other option important guys do is to retire at the top.

 

[pennstater]

i think that ITT tour record was beaten by Chris Boardman ??
Anyway the manner in which Lemond faded in his last years was not normal at all, he simply disappeared from every race palmares throughout complete seasons.

My personal favourite retirement process was Gianni Bugno, even though he failed at winning the Tour having done 2 podium places. He concentrated in winning a couple of classics and other one day races. He was good too in some short stage races still. He finally became team captain on the road for Pavel Tonkov in the Giro d' Italia and even scored one last important stage win in La Vuelta in his last year. All these in the span of 5 or 6 years.

The other option important guys do is to retire at the top.

I think you are correct. Chris Boardman does/did hold the 1-hour time trial record, but I think the type of bike that was used was called into question (if someone knows more about this please chime in). I'm not sure but I think that was on the track as well. If not does anyone know who has the fastest TT finishing in x amount of km per hour is? Not that it matters because most TTs differ from technical course, flat courses and hilly/mountain courses.

Since we are on TT's I would like to say my favorite/most entertaining was the stage 19 mountain TT where Roberto Heras (doped I'm sure) flew up the mountain to take the jersey from Nozal (doped I'm sure). I like how the vuelta coverage shows how many seconds/minutes the riders are away from each other as podium positions are concerned.

Below is the wikipedia page of the 2003 Vuelta. The final GC is a who's who of dopers. Kind of sad for such a dramatic and entertaining race

Sorry for taking this thread off course, but my friends don't call me Michael Rasmussen for nothing...

2003 Vuelta a España - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[vitamin s]

if you look at the way lemond rode and the way they rode from the indurain era up until now, he does appear to have shown signs of clean riding. he had at least 1 poor day in every tour he rode in minus perhaps 1990, but even then, he wasnt doing the stuff that armstrong did. in 89 he won off of a great time trial of course, but he was a great tactician as well. when delgado took 5 minutes out of him at superbagnere he could have easily lost the tour trying to match him on that climb. armstrong would have simply followed him up the road and probably given him some sort of "look" or something like that. racing on the juice looks a lot different.

i have to admit that this years race was very entertaining, but i cant but help get nostalgic about racing in the pre-epo era. guys could lose 5 minutes on a mountain stage and have to gain it back with attacks from early on in the race. doping and race radios cancel these types of situations out of the equation......shame really. mottet pulled all kinds of stunts that would never work in today's peleton.

 

[Froze]

Maybe even way back in the old days they were doping at the TDF...

1920's TDF smoking riders « Singletrack Forum