Jobst Brandt vs. Tire Glue

[Peter Cole]

still me wrote:
> On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 18:10:44 -0400, Peter Cole
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> "PageRank" is a trademark for a technique based on weighted link counts.
>> The algorithm is patented. It changed the search engine world. Overnight.
>
> Whatever. Page ranking is a technology every search tool employs.
> Google's is not exactly perfect - as evidenced by they poor bias
> towards hi-exposure, but low-applicability results that typically show
> up in any search - and by their continued tuning of the algorithm to
> try to make it return results that count. It's early results were
> marginal at best.

They've been around for 7 years or so and don't seem to have any major
competition. They're profitable and have been building infrastructure as
fast as they can. Algorithms can be changed overnight, but
infrastructure takes years and billions. With the infrastructure in
place and paid for, there are lots of other potential applications for
it. Google is actually building the first globally distributed massive
super computer -- scary or exciting, take your pick -- but certainly a
power that hasn't existed before. I, for one, welcome our new overlords.

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 07:26:35 -0400, Peter Cole
<[email protected]> wrote:

>still me wrote:
>> On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 18:10:44 -0400, Peter Cole
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> "PageRank" is a trademark for a technique based on weighted link counts.
>>> The algorithm is patented. It changed the search engine world. Overnight.
>>
>> Whatever. Page ranking is a technology every search tool employs.
>> Google's is not exactly perfect - as evidenced by they poor bias
>> towards hi-exposure, but low-applicability results that typically show
>> up in any search - and by their continued tuning of the algorithm to
>> try to make it return results that count. It's early results were
>> marginal at best.
>
>They've been around for 7 years or so and don't seem to have any major
>competition. They're profitable and have been building infrastructure as
>fast as they can. Algorithms can be changed overnight, but
>infrastructure takes years and billions. With the infrastructure in
>place and paid for, there are lots of other potential applications for
>it. Google is actually building the first globally distributed massive
>super computer -- scary or exciting, take your pick -- but certainly a
>power that hasn't existed before. I, for one, welcome our new overlords.

I can't help think of "I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that."
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

 

[dvt]

Robert Chung wrote:
> On Aug 2, 1:17 pm, "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> and I referenced Le Cycle's testing in the last year, where they
>> showed that of the top ten tires, clincher and tubular, half were of each
>> type. I can't recall the order, etc., but it's in my earlier posting. The
>> print magazine has the full detailed testing.

> http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/lecycle.png

What is the meaning (and the units) for each axis? Here are my guesses...

Slip.angle.wet is the angle (in degrees) at which the tyre slips in some
cornering simulation. Higher slip.angle.wet implies better traction.

Rollout is the distance (units are anyone's guess) the tyre rolls in
some sort of coast down test. Higher rollout implies lower rolling
resistance.

At the risk of raising Sandy's ire, the link to the test source [1]
doesn't help me. Even if I ordered the back issue, I wouldn't be able to
understand it since I can't read French.

1. http://www.lecycle.fr/sommaire.php?num=360

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

Everyone confesses that exertion which brings out all the powers of body
and mind is the best thing for us; but most people do all they can to
get rid of it, and as a general rule nobody does much more than
circumstances drive them to do. -Harriet Beecher Stowe, abolitionist and
novelist (1811-1896)

 

[Sandy]

Dans le message de news:[email protected],
dvt <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> Robert Chung wrote:
>> On Aug 2, 1:17 pm, "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> and I referenced Le Cycle's testing in the last year, where they
>>> showed that of the top ten tires, clincher and tubular, half were
>>> of each type. I can't recall the order, etc., but it's in my
>>> earlier posting. The print magazine has the full detailed testing.
>
>> http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/lecycle.png
>
> What is the meaning (and the units) for each axis? Here are my
> guesses...
> Slip.angle.wet is the angle (in degrees) at which the tyre slips in
> some cornering simulation. Higher slip.angle.wet implies better
> traction.
> Rollout is the distance (units are anyone's guess) the tyre rolls in
> some sort of coast down test. Higher rollout implies lower rolling
> resistance.
>
> At the risk of raising Sandy's ire, the link to the test source [1]
> doesn't help me. Even if I ordered the back issue, I wouldn't be able
> to understand it since I can't read French.

No offense taken. However, working as a lawyer all over the world, mostly
with petro engineers, they talk across languages when data is before them.
They also tend to gain a little foreign vocabulary on the way. The numbers,
as you may note in Robert's chart, are pretty indicative of what is being
discussed, and your inferences of what they mean will let you have an easy
time with the print article. I suspect it's some sense of linguistic
embarassment that keeps Americans from becoming acquainted with languages
other than English, but the USA is pretty multilingual these days.

Another reason to get the mag - they do very nice ride itineraries, so if
you happen to fall into a plane coming here, you have a leg up on some nice
routes. Especially the Hard Hill that is now a monthly feature. Reading
kilometres and percentages, while looking at pictures can make for fun
reading and learning. And finding a girl to help translate the more
difficult stuff.
--
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine
*******

La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
-- Einstein, A.

 

[[email protected]]

On Aug 6, 7:27 pm, "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:
> And finding a girl to help translate the more
> difficult stuff.

AKA "a bedside dictionary."

 

[[email protected]]

On Aug 6, 5:24 pm, dvt <[email protected]> wrote:

> >http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/lecycle.png
>
> What is the meaning (and the units) for each axis? Here are my guesses...
>
> Slip.angle.wet is the angle (in degrees) at which the tyre slips in some
> cornering simulation. Higher slip.angle.wet implies better traction.
>
> Rollout is the distance (units are anyone's guess) the tyre rolls in
> some sort of coast down test. Higher rollout implies lower rolling
> resistance.

Yup, and yup.

As I said, the real lesson is that the distributions overlap so it
doesn't make much sense to talk about tubulars vs. clinchers. One must
specify which tubular, and which clincher. Perhaps surprisingly, many
"plain" tires show better wet traction than many "rain" tires.

BTW:
http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/lecycle2.png

Price is more highly correlated with RR than with wet traction.

 

[still me]

On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 05:14:09 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>> as evidenced by they poor bias
>>towards hi-exposure, but low-applicability results that typically show
>>up in any search -
>
>WTF are you talking about.
>
>The fact that you write "typically" and "any" in the same sentence
>that way shows you're spreading FUD.

Aside from my spell checker mangling a typo into "they poor" instead
of "their" as intended, the grammatical error is slight.

However, the fact that you'd suggest that a syntax error has a bearing
on the validity of the facts tells me that you're just looking to
flame and argue. Your post also tells me that you're another lame
career academian with a self-inflated sense of importance. I hope you
rely pumped yourself up with your last post, I know everyone here is
very impressed.

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Tue, 07 Aug 2007 00:27:53 GMT, still me <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 05:14:09 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> as evidenced by they poor bias
>>>towards hi-exposure, but low-applicability results that typically show
>>>up in any search -
>>
>>WTF are you talking about.
>>
>>The fact that you write "typically" and "any" in the same sentence
>>that way shows you're spreading FUD.
>
>Aside from my spell checker mangling a typo into "they poor" instead
>of "their" as intended, the grammatical error is slight.
>
>However, the fact that you'd suggest that a syntax error has a bearing
>on the validity of the facts tells me that you're just looking to
>flame and argue.

It's not a grammar or syntax error that I was pointing to -- it's an
error of meaning. It seems to me you're simply pushing a point that's
wrong, and mixing strong words ("all") to force it, while also trying
to make it more plausible with words like "typically".

It can't be both those things.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

 

[[email protected]]

On Aug 6, 1:52 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Aug 6, 5:24 pm, dvt <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > >http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/lecycle.png
>
> > What is the meaning (and the units) for each axis? Here are my guesses...
>
> > Slip.angle.wet is the angle (in degrees) at which the tyre slips in some
> > cornering simulation. Higher slip.angle.wet implies better traction.
>
> > Rollout is the distance (units are anyone's guess) the tyre rolls in
> > some sort of coast down test. Higher rollout implies lower rolling
> > resistance.
>
> Yup, and yup.
>
> As I said, the real lesson is that the distributions overlap so it
> doesn't make much sense to talk about tubulars vs. clinchers. One must
> specify which tubular, and which clincher. Perhaps surprisingly, many
> "plain" tires show better wet traction than many "rain" tires.
>
> BTW:http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/lecycle2.png
>
> Price is more highly correlated with RR than with wet traction.

Really [On the overlap question] ???
When I look at the first plot, I see that
the tires highest in rollout are mostly tubulars,
although the distributions do overlap as you say.
Also the rain tires tend to be low in rollout.

I would have guessed that this was not something
intrinsic to tubular vs clincher, but an effect of
weight. (I was guessing the tubulars are more likely
to be fancy light tires that have little rubber and
low RR, while rain tires are probably heavier and
have high RR). Your second plot suggests I'm not
right about the weight, but that maybe price is
the direct correlative. There are no cheap
icky tubulars any more, so maybe that leaves the
remaining tubies at the high price/low RR end of
the spectrum.

BTW, nobody's ever answered the implied question in
the title, "Jobst Brandt vs. Tire Glue." I will
offer a guess: Tire glue is stickier at first, but
Jobst is more difficult to peel off once applied
to a subject.

Ben

 

[dvt]

[email protected] wrote:
> On Aug 6, 5:24 pm, dvt <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/lecycle.png
>> What is the meaning (and the units) for each axis? Here are my guesses...
>>
>> Slip.angle.wet is the angle (in degrees) at which the tyre slips in some
>> cornering simulation. Higher slip.angle.wet implies better traction.
>>
>> Rollout is the distance (units are anyone's guess) the tyre rolls in
>> some sort of coast down test. Higher rollout implies lower rolling
>> resistance.
>
> Yup, and yup.

Thanks for the answer.

> As I said, the real lesson is that the distributions overlap so it
> doesn't make much sense to talk about tubulars vs. clinchers. One must
> specify which tubular, and which clincher. Perhaps surprisingly, many
> "plain" tires show better wet traction than many "rain" tires.
>
> BTW:
> http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/lecycle2.png

Ahhh, the ChungChart!

> Price is more highly correlated with RR than with wet traction.

That is interesting, isn't it?

There is a group of 4-6 tyres with low cost and high rollout in your
chart. Maybe the article would be worth the price if I could translate
enough French to figure out which tyres made up that group.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

Everyone confesses that exertion which brings out all the powers of body
and mind is the best thing for us; but most people do all they can to
get rid of it, and as a general rule nobody does much more than
circumstances drive them to do. -Harriet Beecher Stowe, abolitionist and
novelist (1811-1896)

 

[[email protected]]

On Aug 7, 10:58 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:

> > As I said, the real lesson is that the distributions overlap so it
> > doesn't make much sense to talk about tubulars vs. clinchers. One must
> > specify which tubular, and which clincher. Perhaps surprisingly, many
> > "plain" tires show better wet traction than many "rain" tires.
>
> > BTW:http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/lecycle2.png
>
> Really [On the overlap question] ???

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

> Your second plot suggests I'm not
> right about the weight, but that maybe price is
> the direct correlative. There are no cheap
> icky tubulars any more, so maybe that leaves the
> remaining tubies at the high price/low RR end of
> the spectrum.

There is, however, an expensive icky tubular:
http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/lecycle3.png

> BTW, nobody's ever answered the implied question in
> the title, "Jobst Brandt vs. Tire Glue." I will
> offer a guess: Tire glue is stickier at first, but
> Jobst is more difficult to peel off once applied
> to a subject.

 

[[email protected]]

On Aug 7, 4:19 pm, dvt <[email protected]> wrote:

> There is a group of 4-6 tyres with low cost and high rollout in your
> chart. Maybe the article would be worth the price if I could translate
> enough French to figure out which tyres made up that group.

Doesn't take much French to read a table. However, I would think that
price and RR aren't the only variables one should consider. There are
lots of interesting little oddities one can discover if one reads the
tables.

 

[[email protected]]

On Aug 6, 11:24 am, dvt <[email protected]> wrote:

> Rollout is the distance (units are anyone's guess) the tyre rolls in
> some sort of coast down test. Higher rollout implies lower rolling
> resistance.

Interesting that this testing, which shows tubulars with the best rr
uses a rollout test, presumably on a real bicycle, while all the
others showing clinchers as better seem to use a smooth stationary
drum. Just another factor in the confusion. Wonder how Le Cycle glued
the tires.

 

[[email protected]]

On Aug 6, 1:27 pm, "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I suspect it's some sense of linguistic
> embarassment that keeps Americans from becoming acquainted with languages
> other than English, but the USA is pretty multilingual these days.

I think it's more a state of linguistic isolation. However, to the
degree that the USA is becoming multilingual, it is really more
bilingual with Latin American Spanish, which won't help that much in
translating a French article. My children when they were in private
school were taught French from pre-K on, because, I think, it is
considered the modern classic language, the contemporary equivalent of
Latin. In public schools now they are being taught no foreign
language, and we're in Fairfax County, generally considered to be one
of the best school districts in the US.

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> On Aug 6, 1:27 pm, "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I suspect it's some sense of linguistic embarassment that keeps
> > Americans from becoming acquainted with languages other than
> > English, but the USA is pretty multilingual these days.
>
> I think it's more a state of linguistic isolation. However, to the
> degree that the USA is becoming multilingual, it is really more
> bilingual with Latin American Spanish, which won't help that much in
> translating a French article.

IIRC the last census showed that English and Spanish were the most
common languages spoken in US homes, with everything else lagging far
behind. But I suspect there is a lot of regional variation. Locally we
have a sizeable Spanish speaking population, but we have pretty large
communities of Hmong and Somalis in particular.

> My children when they were in private school were taught French from
> pre-K on, because, I think, it is considered the modern classic
> language, the contemporary equivalent of Latin. In public schools now
> they are being taught no foreign language, and we're in Fairfax
> County, generally considered to be one of the best school districts
> in the US.

Not having kids, I didn't know that public schools have scaled back on
languages. Is that pretty universal? I suppose it's maybe another
consequence of schools focusing their curriculum on training kids to
pass the NCLB tests rather than actually educating them.

 

[A Muzi]

> "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I suspect it's some sense of linguistic
>> embarassment that keeps Americans from becoming acquainted with languages
>> other than English, but the USA is pretty multilingual these days.

[email protected] wrote:
> I think it's more a state of linguistic isolation. However, to the
> degree that the USA is becoming multilingual, it is really more
> bilingual with Latin American Spanish, which won't help that much in
> translating a French article. My children when they were in private
> school were taught French from pre-K on, because, I think, it is
> considered the modern classic language, the contemporary equivalent of
> Latin.

Huh.
I thought it was because there aren't qualified Latin teachers.

[email protected] wrote:
> In public schools now they are being taught no foreign
> language, and we're in Fairfax County, generally considered to be one
> of the best school districts in the US.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[[email protected]]

On Aug 7, 7:07 pm, Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
>
> [email protected] wrote:
> > On Aug 6, 1:27 pm, "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > I suspect it's some sense of linguistic embarassment that keeps
> > > Americans from becoming acquainted with languages other than
> > > English, but the USA is pretty multilingual these days.
>
> > I think it's more a state of linguistic isolation. However, to the
> > degree that the USA is becoming multilingual, it is really more
> > bilingual with Latin American Spanish, which won't help that much in
> > translating a French article.
>
> IIRC the last census showed that English and Spanish were the most
> common languages spoken in US homes, with everything else lagging far
> behind. But I suspect there is a lot of regional variation. Locally we
> have a sizeable Spanish speaking population, but we have pretty large
> communities of Hmong and Somalis in particular.
>
> > My children when they were in private school were taught French from
> > pre-K on, because, I think, it is considered the modern classic
> > language, the contemporary equivalent of Latin. In public schools now
> > they are being taught no foreign language, and we're in Fairfax
> > County, generally considered to be one of the best school districts
> > in the US.
>
> Not having kids, I didn't know that public schools have scaled back on
> languages. Is that pretty universal? I suppose it's maybe another
> consequence of schools focusing their curriculum on training kids to
> pass the NCLB tests rather than actually educating them.

There are some elementary schools in Fairfax County where foreign
language is taught, including immersion schools, but they are
exceptions. Foreign language is available starting from 7th grade,
which misses the period when kids benefit the most from exposure to a
foreign language. A large number of schools have an ESL focus. In
general Fairfax County schools are pretty well funded, so I'm not sure
to what degree that enters into the picture.

My kids go to GT centers so there is not a huge amount of time spent
on training them for the tests but even that is probably a waste,
since they are not at risk for failing them. The GT kids help the
average, so they try to squeeze extra points out of them as well.

 

[[email protected]]

On Aug 7, 7:44 pm, A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:
> > "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> I suspect it's some sense of linguistic
> >> embarassment that keeps Americans from becoming acquainted with languages
> >> other than English, but the USA is pretty multilingual these days.
> [email protected] wrote:
> > I think it's more a state of linguistic isolation. However, to the
> > degree that the USA is becoming multilingual, it is really more
> > bilingual with Latin American Spanish, which won't help that much in
> > translating a French article. My children when they were in private
> > school were taught French from pre-K on, because, I think, it is
> > considered the modern classic language, the contemporary equivalent of
> > Latin.
>
> Huh.
> I thought it was because there aren't qualified Latin teachers.

I don't know about in general but the schools where they were taught
French also had Latin and it was required in 6-8th grade.

 

[[email protected]]

On Aug 7, 4:19 pm, dvt <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > On Aug 6, 5:24 pm, dvt <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>>http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/lecycle.png
> >> What is the meaning (and the units) for each axis? Here are my guesses...
>
> >> Slip.angle.wet is the angle (in degrees) at which the tyre slips in some
> >> cornering simulation. Higher slip.angle.wet implies better traction.
>
> >> Rollout is the distance (units are anyone's guess) the tyre rolls in
> >> some sort of coast down test. Higher rollout implies lower rolling
> >> resistance.
>
> > Yup, and yup.

****! I had the slip.angle.wet backwards. It's measured from
vertical, not horizontal, so -->LOWER<-- slip.angle.wet implies better
traction. The rain tires generally do have better traction than plain
tires.

 

[dvt]

[email protected] wrote:
> On Aug 7, 4:19 pm, dvt <[email protected]> wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Aug 6, 5:24 pm, dvt <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/lecycle.png
>>>> What is the meaning (and the units) for each axis? Here are my guesses...
>>>> Slip.angle.wet is the angle (in degrees) at which the tyre slips in some
>>>> cornering simulation. Higher slip.angle.wet implies better traction.
>>>> Rollout is the distance (units are anyone's guess) the tyre rolls in
>>>> some sort of coast down test. Higher rollout implies lower rolling
>>>> resistance.
>>> Yup, and yup.
>
> ****! I had the slip.angle.wet backwards. It's measured from
> vertical, not horizontal, so -->LOWER<-- slip.angle.wet implies better
> traction. The rain tires generally do have better traction than plain
> tires.

The "CotonTech+" looks like a very high performance tyre in that case.
Expensive, too.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

Everyone confesses that exertion which brings out all the powers of body
and mind is the best thing for us; but most people do all they can to
get rid of it, and as a general rule nobody does much more than
circumstances drive them to do. -Harriet Beecher Stowe, abolitionist and
novelist (1811-1896)