John Kerry: Nice wheels

<snip>

Quoted message said:

This post explains this picture I found of you on the net:

home.kc.rr.comdoug.jpgOpen ↗

<snip>

No, that protects him from the Republican thought control
beams - I wear it too, only I use those little colored
plastic wrap covers with the elastic. My conservative co-
workers are unaware that they really don't control my every
thought and action as they just think I am weird for wearing
a hairnet at a software concern.

App, who has witnessed the effects of these beams on people
like Mark Hickey.

snippage>

Quoted message said:

And she even misspelled "snookered". Harumph.

snippage>

"vindictives": Harumph back at ya.

App

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(Appkiller) said:

C'mon, the reason the guy was a clerk is 'cuz everyone
knew he

was a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

little short in the head and liked to drink A LOT.

Blah, blah, blah.

It's kinda funny don't you think?

Those who are taking issues with Kerry generally state
specific actions, quotes and voting records.

O.K. Here is a specific action. The decision to attack Iraq
was probably the worst decision made by a president in
40 years. JFK's decision on Viet Nam was bad, too, but
at least he had an excuse in the form of promises made
by prior administrations going all the way back to
Wilson and the last vestiges of the Truman Doctrine.
Bush was not compelled to attack Iraq. That was his
decision, and it was a really, really stupid one.
Stupid and expensive. Our children will be paying for
that one, and maybe our grandchildren. -- Jay Beattie.

On Mon, 5 Apr 2004 22:27:46 -0400, "Doug Taylor"

may have said:

wonkette.comclass war alert 014496.phpOpen ↗

P.S. You got a problem with dropping 3K on a bike? Dude,
you have no idea...

A Serotta.

Please, somebody, tell me this isn't one of the ones with
the dumb flex joints on the seat stays. I would really hate
to have to find out that Kerry's that easy to fool.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(JP) said:

So don't give me that [censored] that nobody claimed he was a

rancher. We

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

know what he and his gang did. There is a connection
between

the myth

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of George Bush the Cowboy and the myth of the threat
of Iraqi

WMD. The

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

people who make up these stories don't care who gets
hurt as

long as

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

their political objectives are met, and our troops
are dying

for it.

Quoted message said:

"The people who make up these stories" about the Iraqi WMD

include

Quoted message said:

President Clinton, pretty much his entire staff, the UN
weapons inpection team, and every legitimate intelligence
organization

in the

Quoted message said:

world. But the media is trying to spin it like it's
something

GWB

Quoted message said:

thought up on a slow day in DC.

Maybe you were comfortable with Saddam's good
intentions toward

the

Quoted message said:

US. I wasn't - nor were most people in the US. It's a

different

Quoted message said:

world than it used to be, and the war against terrorism is

exactly

Quoted message said:

that. A real "shooting war". Clearly Saddam was on
the wrong

side of

Quoted message said:

that war and paid for it. So was the Taliban. Others are
as

well,

Quoted message said:

but the lessons they've learned watching Iraq are paying

dividends

Quoted message said:

(think Libya).

The future of Iraq and Afghanistan depends on the
citizenry's willingness to step up and fight the "enemy
within". The vast majority support the creation of a
democratic government - they

now

Quoted message said:

have their chance handed to them on a silver platter
(think

about how

Quoted message said:

many Iraqis would have died overthrowing Saddam directly).

We have created our very own West Bank/Gaza/Kosovo/Lebanon
tar baby. Bush does not understand the Middle East and has
foolishly triggered an ethnic/religious civil war that will
not respond to American democracy. And we get to pay to
contain it. -- Jay Beattie.

The only thing preventing it from eventually becoming a
"World War" is the fact that no South American country will
give a damn -- until militant Islam spreads there too.

"Jay Beattie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(JP) said:

So don't give me that [censored] that nobody claimed he was a

rancher. We

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

know what he and his gang did. There is a connection
between

the myth

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of George Bush the Cowboy and the myth of the threat of
Iraqi

WMD. The

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

people who make up these stories don't care who gets
hurt as

long as

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

their political objectives are met, and our troops are
dying

for it.

Quoted message said:

"The people who make up these stories" about the
Iraqi WMD

include

Quoted message said:

President Clinton, pretty much his entire staff, the UN
weapons inpection team, and every legitimate
intelligence organization

in the

Quoted message said:

world. But the media is trying to spin it like it's
something

GWB

Quoted message said:

thought up on a slow day in DC.

Maybe you were comfortable with Saddam's good intentions
toward

the

Quoted message said:

US. I wasn't - nor were most people in the US. It's a

different

Quoted message said:

world than it used to be, and the war against
terrorism is

exactly

Quoted message said:

that. A real "shooting war". Clearly Saddam was on
the wrong

side of

Quoted message said:

that war and paid for it. So was the Taliban. Others
are as

well,

Quoted message said:

but the lessons they've learned watching Iraq are paying

dividends

Quoted message said:

(think Libya).

The future of Iraq and Afghanistan depends on the
citizenry's willingness to step up and fight the "enemy
within". The vast majority support the creation of a
democratic government - they

now

Quoted message said:

have their chance handed to them on a silver platter
(think

about how

Quoted message said:

many Iraqis would have died overthrowing Saddam
directly).

We have created our very own West Bank/Gaza/Kosovo/Lebanon
tar baby. Bush does not understand the Middle East and has
foolishly triggered an ethnic/religious civil war that
will not respond to American democracy. And we get to pay
to contain it. -- Jay Beattie.

A piece of dead cow said:

Doug said:

A man of the people. You got to be **#$%^& kidding! This
guy is living testament to the fact that we should have
huge inheritance taxes!

Maybe you should ask a farmer in the midwest who wants to
pass his family farm onto his son how he feels about
inheritance taxes.

Under the pre Bush II US tax laws, a single person would pay
no inheritance taxes on the first 1-million of net worth of
a farm and that exemption would double to 2-million if the
farm was not sold for at least 10 years. These amounts would
be double for a married couple inheriting a farm.

Very few FAMILY OPERATED farms are worth more than the above
amounts. Even the Farm Bureau that has opposed inheritance
taxes has not been able to produce a single case where a
family operated farm was lost due to inheritance taxes.

People using this argument against inheritance taxes are
either ignorant or emitting male bovine excrement.

--
Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

But Rush says it. Hannity says it. It must be true!

Gag me!

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

A piece of dead cow said:

Doug said:

A man of the people. You got to be **#$%^& kidding!
This guy is

living

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

testament to the fact that we should have huge
inheritance taxes!

Maybe you should ask a farmer in the midwest who wants
to pass his family farm onto his son how he feels about
inheritance taxes.

Under the pre Bush II US tax laws, a single person would
pay no inheritance taxes on the first 1-million of net
worth of a farm and that exemption would double to 2-
million if the farm was not sold for at least 10 years.
These amounts would be double for a married couple
inheriting a farm.

Very few FAMILY OPERATED farms are worth more than the
above amounts. Even the Farm Bureau that has opposed
inheritance taxes has not been able to produce a single
case where a family operated farm was lost due to
inheritance taxes.

People using this argument against inheritance taxes are
either ignorant or emitting male bovine excrement.

--
Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

Mark Hickey wrote:

[a defense of Bush II]

A bike shop owner told me that he refrained from getting
involved in off-topic Usenet flame wars because it could
cost him sales. On can only wonder how Mr. Hickey's pro-
Republican position will affect Habanero sales.

--
Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

Bruce Jackson said:

... Some of the evidence used to justify the war were
fabrications. The aluminum tubes supposedly to build an
uranium centerfuge were not apropriate for that use...

Typically maraging steel, not aluminium alloy is used in the
construction of gas centrifuges.

Another win for the "steel is real" crowd.

--
Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Tom Sherman
Mark Hickey wrote:

[a defense of Bush II]

A bike shop owner told me that he refrained from getting
involved in off-topic Usenet flame wars because it could
cost him sales. On can only wonder how Mr. Hickey's pro-
Republican position will affect Habanero sales.

--
Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

Dear Tom,

Given how evenly the U.S. is split between
the Republican and Democrat parties, it's
unlikely that Mark needs to worry much
about such veiled threats--after all, you
weren't going to buy an upright bicycle,
were you?

Disappointedly,

Carl Fogel

I thought that it was Republicans who preferred recumbents
-- because it is easier for them to drag their knuckles
while riding!

"carlfogel" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Sherman said:

Mark Hickey wrote: [a defense of Bush II] A bike shop
owner told me that he refrained from getting involved
in off-topic Usenet flame wars because it could cost
him sales. On can only wonder how Mr. Hickey's pro-
Republican position will affect Habanero sales.
--
Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

Dear Tom,

Given how evenly the U.S. is split between the Republican
and Democrat parties, it's unlikely that Mark needs to
worry much about such veiled threats--after all, you
weren't going to buy an upright bicycle, were you?

Disappointedly,

Carl Fogel

--

(Appkiller) said:

Mark Hickey <[email hidden]> wrote ...

<snipped a whole lot because it's just too dang long for
anyone with a life to read>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I actually prefer having a president who doesn't get
horribly caught up in every junk science trend that
comes along. Suddenly it's Bush's fault that there is
mercury in fish for example, because he proposed
relaxing the mercury emissions from coal-fired power
plants somewhat from Clinton's very difficult standards.
That saved the power companies a LOT of money (read,
saved you and me a LOT of money), and won't affect the
amount of mercury in fish measurably since less that 1%
of the mercury released into the atmosphere comes from
US coal fired power plants now (and this is before the
improvements that will reduce that dramatically even
under the "Bush standard"😉.

Really? Where is the citation for that? Oh, yeah, that
came from that study funded by the power industry. No
conflict of interest there, that's for damn sure. It's the
people whose vision doesn't extend beyond their own wallet
that are screwing up this world. Why don't you eat fish
every day from Lake Michigan and come back to me in a
coupla years? They warn pregnant women not to eat it at
all and suggest not eating more than one meal per week of
fish from same.

And what about W's little loophole that allows the power
plants to upgrade their facilities without adding the
legally required scrubbers and emission reduction
equipment? All they have to do is upgrade in small monetary
amounts doing the changes piecemeal - or at least
documenting them that way.

A few "facts" that your news source seems to be leaving out
of the discussion.

1) Bush is not "increasing" the abilty for power plants to
increase the amount of mercury, but has enacted standards
that will remove 70% of the mercury output.
2) The Clinton administration did NOTHING. They were sued by
environmental groups for doing nothing. Their "solution"?
They waited until Bush had been elected, but not yet
sworn in... then "enacted" a plan to eliminate 90% of the
mercury output from the coal and oil power plants. If
Bush had actually tried to meet the plan's goals, the
price of power generated by these plants would have gone
up tremendously (there's a lot of doubt as to whether it
could be done at any price).
3) Less than 1% of the mercury in fish can come from US
power plants now. So Bush's "evil plan" would a) save the
taxpayers a ton of money and b) reduce the mercury to
99.3% of its current level instead of
4.1%. A volcano could double it.
5) As to the dangers of mercury in fish, Harvard researchers
can't find effects of fish-borne mercury poisoning even
in populations who eat huge amounts of "contaminated
fish". Other than Japan's horribly polluted Minamata Bay
(where they dumped mercury-laden waste in the bay for 20
years), it's simply not a huge issue (certainly not worth
spending the enormous amount of money to "fix",
particularly when the "fix" scarcely changes the
situation).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The thing is, the effort and money that would have gone
to fixing this "problem" can be used on something more
important (which could be almost anything).

That was the next thing I was going to type - but I
already did...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

... you've told me what I need to know about your
critical thinking skills. It's a lot like talk radio
(either side of the fence). When someone calls in spewing
"vindictives" (sic) there really isn't much room to
engage in debate. Generally the host sighs and hits the
hang-up button.

Sounds a lot like the screams from the right over
Clinton, huh?

Actually, yes it does.

Quoted message said:

Well, welcome to the wonderful world of human
interaction over politics: two parts hysteria, three
parts lies, four parts personal interest and one tiny
part interest in the well-being of others. Your ratio
may vary but probably not.

I like facts... see above. I'd much rather see all the money
Clinton's "mercury trap" plan (which worked - see all the
hysteria it created?) would have cost us if GWB would have
caved in to junk science to avoid the appearance of "not
caring about the poor dying children"?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thanks to GWB, it's survived the Clinton/Gore recession.

Quoted message said:

Well, here's two votes that aren't going to mean anything.

Hey, I'm from Illinois so I think I get to vote early
and often (and even after I'm dead). Or is that only
Cook county?

Besides, last time I voted for president was in Palm Beach
County (via an absentee ballot that Gore didn't want to
count). My vote really DID count in that election (brought
the winning margin up by a healthy portion of one percent).

Quoted message said:

Ride on,

See, we can agree on something... ;-)

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of
the $695 ti frame

Jay Beattie said:

O.K. Here is a specific action. The decision to attack
Iraq was probably the worst decision made by a
president in 40 years. JFK's decision on Viet Nam was
bad, too, but at least he had an excuse in the form
of promises made by prior administrations going all
the way back to Wilson and the last vestiges of the
Truman Doctrine. Bush was not compelled to attack
Iraq. That was his decision, and it was a really,
really stupid one. Stupid and expensive. Our children
will be paying for that one, and maybe our
grandchildren. -- Jay Beattie.

20 years ago, Reagan pressing the USSR resulted in the same
kind of language. His radical tax cuts were going to
"bankrupt the nation". His resolve broke the USSR's back,
and he brought the stumbling US economy out of the sleepwalk
of the '70's.

Bush was faced with a credible threat of WMD (so said the
previous administration, the UN weapons inspectors, and
every credible intelligence agency in the world), in the
hands of a brutal regime that openly supported terrorists. A
regime that was shooting at our aircraft regularly and that
had tried to assassinate an ex-president.

Maybe you thought he should sit back and wait... I
personally didn't. Imagine what you'd be saying about GWB
right now if we had gotten hit by WMD that were determined
to have come from Iraq if Bush hadn't taken out Saddam.
Just imagine!

According to (some of) the Democrats trying (unsuccessfully)
to grill Condi Rice this morning, Bush should be strung up
for possibly having heard that possibly, Al Qaida operatives
might be planning to hijack an airplane somewhere sometime,
and not "figuring out" that somehow that meant they were
going to do what they did on 9/11. Imagine now if Bush had
decided to take no action against Iraq and we lost thousands
of Americans to Iraqi WMDs. Heck, I've heard people suggest
Bush should resign because the terrorists were able to get
box cutters aboard an airplane. Really.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of
the $695 ti frame

Doug said:

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Bush has taken the only real action to turn around our
horribly failing public school system in many years. The

Quoted message said:

NEA whines

about it, but schools are going to actually >be held
accountable for RESULTS (imagine that).

Are you referring to the unfunded mandate called "No Child
Left Behind," that many local school systems simply cannot
afford to implement, and hence, has resulted in increased
local and state taxes?

The test measures basic skills that any reasonably well
educated child should pass. If it costs a little more but
forces schools to perform, I'd say it's a bargain.

Besides, it seems to me that cutting funding for NCLB is a
lot better than not having had a NCLB program (like previous
administrations).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Iraq Of course the middle east is a simple place with
easy to solve> problems

in your view. Were that it were so.

But you have to recognize the problems and acknowledge
them. Mark my words, we are not fighting just insurgents in
the Sunni Triangle right now. We are fighting the
population of Iraq, and regular armed forceds of both Syria
and Iraq.

We are fighting at most a very small percentage of the
population of Iraq. Polls indicate 90% of the Iraqis want a
democratic non-militant government.

Quoted message said:

For the first time in history, the Sunnis and [censored] have
stopped killing each other, and have joined forces against
the U.S. Remeber Bush telling us that the Shiites, who were
oppressed by Saddam, would be our allies?

It's not like the two factions have joined - from what I
read, the Sunnis are giving some praise to Al-Sadr's
Shiite faction.

Quoted message said:

We have done just what analysts and are allies in the
middle east have warned against for years -- we've removed
Saddam, created a power vaccuum in Iraq that will, at some
point, degenerate into an all-out civil war, and most
likely another fundamentalist regime, and the entire middle
east will be destabilized.

That could happen - or not. The Iraqis have the option of
taking their future into their own hands, which is why I
think handing over power to them is crucial. Will it be 100%
smooth? Not a chance. Probably no rougher than 1776 in the
US though.

Quoted message said:

The "victory" in Iraq was entirely pyrrhic. Either we
occupy the country indefinitely and our troops continue to
die on a daily basis, or we leave and watch the entire
middle east fall into turmoil.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the "entire middle east"
been "in turmoil" for thousands of years? The only countries
that have overcome this in the region are the democracies.

Quoted message said:

Powell was right. Iraq is not Viet Nam. It's far more
chilling a scenario. If we continue the occupation, we
must ignore Iran, WHICH IS DEVELOPING WMDs, as it buys
time by sending its troops into Fallujah disguised as
"insurgents." If we retaliate against Iraq or conduct
preemptive strikes, we have a two-front war. Make that a
three-front war when Syria joins the fray. Then what? What
do we do when Syria (already caught moving arms into the
area) and Iran start raining North Korean missles equipped
with chemical warheads down on our troops? Do we use the
tactical nukes that we recently moved into the area?

I don't think it'll come to that. We may be busy, but we
could still take out Iran and Syria. At least now they know
it's not all "bluff and bluster". Now if only the UN would
step up and actually DO something... (I know, that's asking
too much).

Quoted message said:

Additionally, I will also suggest that if you think we are
safer know than you were on 9/11, you are sadly mistaken.
If you think Shrub learned from
9/11, why is it that Sadr wasn't arrested weeks ago, when
the arrest warrant was first issued, and our forces had
the opportunity to grab him? Shrub has learned nothing!
This entire "uprising" could have been avoided.

Kerry called Al-Sadr a "legitimate voice" (then immediately
back pedaled (cycling content) and said "a voice"😉, and
lamented shutting down the newspaper he was using to incite
the population to kill coalition soldiers. I haven't read of
an opportunity to arrest Al-Sadr since he began his
uprising, to be honest.

Quoted message said:

Your "environmental" points I'll let someone else respond
to. I'll just say that I doubt you'd or Shrub would know
"junk science" from good science if it bit you on the ass.

Please read my previous post on the "mercury crisis". It's
a perfect example of how nonsense prevails in an election
year. Most people honestly think GWB has relaxed existing
standards and that hundreds or thousands of precious
little babies are gonna die as a result. It's a positive
non-issue (and it didn't have to bite me on the ass - the
facts are out there once you stop relying on NBC or ABC
for your "news"😉.

For example, you might read the article titled "New Power
Plant Rule to Achieve Largest Emission Reductions in a
Decade" from the EPA at: yosemite.epa.govadmpreOpen ↗
ss.nsf/b1ab9f485b098972852562e7004dc686/17302e1973309325852-
56df200686549?OpenDocument

Quoted message said:

I'm going riding. Enough of this [censored].

Good idea.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of
the $695 ti frame

Tom Sherman said:

Mark Hickey wrote:

[a defense of Bush II]

A bike shop owner told me that he refrained from getting
involved in off-topic Usenet flame wars because it could
cost him sales. On can only wonder how Mr. Hickey's pro-
Republican position will affect Habanero sales.

I don't "flame". I agree that would negatively affect my
sales. I know that some of my customers are on the opposite
side of the political spectrum, and some aren't. If I lose
sales as a result, oh well... I'll survive. And if that
means more conservatives than liberals end up riding nice
bikes, so be it. ;-)

Mark "besides, Kerry looks like he'd be hard to fit anyway"
Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the
$695 ti frame

(Appkiller) said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

This post explains this picture I found of you on
the net:

home.kc.rr.comdoug.jpgOpen ↗

<snip>

No, that protects him from the Republican thought control
beams - I wear it too, only I use those little colored
plastic wrap covers with the elastic. My conservative co-
workers are unaware that they really don't control my every
thought and action as they just think I am weird for
wearing a hairnet at a software concern.

App, who has witnessed the effects of these beams on people
like Mark Hickey.

Heh heh... when all you have is network news, anything that
goes against "the mantra" probably DOES sound pretty
strange. Go do some independent research on the subjects -
you might (will) be surprised.

Oh, and I wouldn't suggest going to sites like
www.gwbisabigpoopoohead.com.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of
the $695 ti frame

Elmo Spam King said:

Mark Hickey said:

No doubt GB Sr. was a war hero. If you don't think the
National Guard pilots are "warriors", then you have to
say that there are no "warriors" in the absence of war.
The fighter pilots are doing VERY dangerous duty in times
of peace as well - there aren't that many of them, and
still they are killed in training regularly.

Hoo, boy. Disingenuous doesn't even begin to cover your
side of this argument.

Now you're going into the abstract merits of NG
fighter pilots generally as though GWB was a typical
NG fighter pilot.

He was probably very typical of the NG fighter pilot in
that time.

Quoted message said:

Still not ONE National Guardsman has come forward from the
base on which he claims to have been stationed that can
admit to having even met the man -- his supposed commanding
officer included.

The guy who suddenly remembered he probably wasn't there
himself during the time he "remembered not seeing Bush"?
Heh. Look, the fact is GWB got an honorable discharge and
completed his duty. Either the NG is so horribly screwed up
that no one knew where anyone was at any time - or he was
actually where he said he was. It's clear the records aren't
all that complete.

Quoted message said:

The guy doesn't READ, Mark. His entire life is a series of
PR moves orchestrated by handlers. To call him a "liar" is
almost unfair, but only because he likely has no idea what
it is you and I call sincerity.

I always find it amazing that people can honestly believe a
dunce can be elected to the most powerful position on the
planet. How naive is that? I have to wonder how he graduated
(with reasonably good grades) from Yale AND Harvard if he
"doesn't read".

Quoted message said:

Even your much vaunted "Little House in Midland" was more a
residence of record than a home. The family spent most of
its time on the family estates in Maine.

Yeah, Maine is a real hotbed for the oil industry (where GB
Sr. made his fortune). Heh. But if you can post a citation
showing the "Maine mansion" that served as GWB's "real"
boyhood home, I'll gladly check it out.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of
the $695 ti frame

Doug Taylor said:

Mark Hickey said:

Quoted message said:

>Well, other than the fact he WAS a fighter pilot

Come, now, Mark - do you REALLY want to go into the
National Guard thing? BFD. The implication was that he is
a warrior. In fact, he is a chicken hawk. His dad, like
that famous liberal, George McGovern, was the combat vet
war hero.

No doubt GB Sr. was a war hero. If you don't think the
National Guard pilots are "warriors", then you have to say
that there are no "warriors" in the absence of war. The
fighter pilots are doing VERY dangerous duty in times of
peace as well - there aren't that many of them, and still
they are killed in training regularly.

I for one wouldn't ever suggest to a NG fighter pilot that
he is NOT a warrior and that his service to this country
is unimportant.

Mark, Mark, Mark. As a fellow old fart baby boomer, I am
appalled that you so shamelessly take Bush's service in the
NG out of the context of the Vietnam War. Thing were A BIT
different in those days, as you WELL know.

Yeah - the jets were less reliable and more likely to kill
you!

Quoted message said:

Maybe, though, you were just a few years too young during
that war. If so, let me remind you what was going on. The
DRAFT was in effect. If you were a male over the age of 18,
you had 3 possibilities:
1) Enlist in the armed services; 2) get drafted by the
Army; or 3) dodge the draft.

I was close, but just missed it.

Quoted message said:

In events 1 or 2, you had a high likelihood of actually
seeing combat and getting killed or wounded in country.
That would be fine and dandy if you were a brave, gung ho
patriot or a brave, law abiding citizen. But that war was
highly controversial and unpopular, and there were more
than a few not-so-brave-gung-ho-patriotic little boys
around. Me and Bill Clinton and George W. Bush and [censored]
Cheney and Don Rumsfeld and Dan Quayle to name a few. We
were all draft dodgers. You could dodge the draft legally
or illegally. Legal dodges included student deferments and
then a high draft number (me); alternative service (the
rest of the named people). Illegal included not
registering, booking for Canada, etc.

Joining the NG (or the Peace Corps for that matter) was NOT
dodging the draft. It was a legitimate, legal path. Yes, it
did favor those with connections. If your son was about to
get drafted into 'Nam and you had the chance to shuffle him
off to the NG, wouldn't you?

Quoted message said:

Those who dodged the draft had little REALISTIC chance of
actually seeing combat. We were not brave gung ho soldiers.
If we were, we would have enlisted like Kerry and Kerrey
(to name two in the news). Instead, we did what we could to
avoid combat, including having our daddy pull political
strings if need be to get us in the NG even though we had
bad driving records and had been busted at frat parties.

Yes, he got into the NG through "connections". Others like
Gore avoided any dangerous duty when in 'Nam due to
"connections".

Quoted message said:

I will grant that GWB had a more dangerous assignment
flying fighter jets than I did smoking dope and cutting
classes at undergrad school. But make no mistake. Serving
in the NG during the Vietnam war was a dodge, pure and
simple. You can spin it however you want to try and deflect
that point, but it was a dodge. Ask all the real vets.

I don't disagree entirely - I just see it as an alternate,
and still important service to the country.

Quoted message said:

Oh, and P.S. If the government for whatever reason re-
instituited that draft to get bodies to fight in Iraq, see
how popular your little war would be then.

Doubt that's going to happen - the volunteer rates are quite
sufficient I hear. A Marine recruiter buddy of mine tells me
there's a 9 month wait to get into boot camp. Clearly some
young studs out there who believe in the cause. This is NOT
Vietnam (regardless of what Mr. Al Sadr and his buddy Teddy
Kennedy say).

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of
the $695 ti frame

Doug said:

I thought that it was Republicans who preferred recumbents
-- because it is easier for them to drag their knuckles
while riding!

This scathing commentary from a clueless top-poster.
Classic!

Bill "content snipped for coherency (too lazy to move
Douggie's words where they belong)" S.