Johnny Can’t Climb – Needs Help

[LT Intolerant]

First off sorry for the long post but I need help. Here’s my dilemma. I can hang with good riders, Cat 3s & good 4s (read: sandbaggers) on climbs of 5 minutes or less, but get shelled on longer climbs (10-12 mins for example).



Here is some background…



Masters Cat 4 age 48

Weight – 154 lbs.

FTP – 266

15 min AP – 281W

10 min AP – 290W

5 min AP – 364W

1 min AP – 569W



I use Hunter Allen’s Winter and Spring programs as a guideline for weekly training (have seen FTP go from 250 to 266 in past 6 months) but I use Friel’s periodization formula for yearly hours (currently on course to do 600 hrs. in ’07 after doing 500 hrs. in ’06).



Given that I’m in my Base Period right now I’m doing a lot of SST climbing (3 x15min, 2 x 30m) during the week, and group rides on weekends that see me all over the power spectrum (Endo to AC). Typical week looks like this...



Mon - recovery ride

Tue - Power wkt on the bike

Wed - SST Climbing

Thu - Speed wkt or more SST

Fri - recovery ride or rest

Sat - Group

Sun - Group



As race season approaches (looking to peak in April for NorCal events like Copperopolis & Wente) I’ll incorporate structured LT, Vo2, and AC intervals during the week and continue the group rides on the weekends. .



· Is there something I could/should be doing differently to build my FTP so I can hang in there past 5 mins?

· Is the spread between my 5 min power and FTP indicative of something I’m missing in my training?

· Should I be doing LT work now to build FTP now (seems early to me)?



Any help would be greatly appreciated!



LT Intolerant

 

[whoawhoa]

First off sorry for the long post but I need help. Here’s my dilemma. I can hang with good riders, Cat 3s & good 4s (read: sandbaggers) on climbs of 5 minutes or less, but get shelled on longer climbs (10-12 mins for example).



Here is some background…



Masters Cat 4 age 48

Weight – 154 lbs.

FTP – 266

15 min AP – 281W

10 min AP – 290W

5 min AP – 364W

1 min AP – 569W



I use Hunter Allen’s Winter and Spring programs as a guideline for weekly training (have seen FTP go from 250 to 266 in past 6 months) but I use Friel’s periodization formula for yearly hours (currently on course to do 600 hrs. in ’07 after doing 500 hrs. in ’06).



Given that I’m in my Base Period right now I’m doing a lot of SST climbing (3 x15min, 2 x 30m) during the week, and group rides on weekends that see me all over the power spectrum (Endo to AC). Typical week looks like this...



Mon - recovery ride

Tue - Power wkt on the bike

Wed - SST Climbing

Thu - Speed wkt or more SST

Fri - recovery ride or rest

Sat - Group

Sun - Group



As race season approaches (looking to peak in April for NorCal events like Copperopolis & Wente) I’ll incorporate structured LT, Vo2, and AC intervals during the week and continue the group rides on the weekends. .



· Is there something I could/should be doing differently to build my FTP so I can hang in there past 5 mins?

· Is the spread between my 5 min power and FTP indicative of something I’m missing in my training?

· Should I be doing LT work now to build FTP now (seems early to me)?



Any help would be greatly appreciated!



LT Intolerant

I didn't check the power profile on cyclingpeaks.com, but from memory it appears your abilities are definitely leaning towards the anaerobic side. Continual LT development should do the trick for the longer climbs.

What sort of weekly TSS are you doing? This time of year, many people are fairly time limited so I might bump the weeknight stuff up to mid-high l4 to raise threshold. Come springtime you can probably do more SST stuff when you have more time to train.

 

[LT Intolerant]

Thx for the quick reply and advice whoawhoa -

Currently my weekly TSS runs 700-1000, my CTL is 95 and ATL 125. I'm puting in roughly 12 or so hours per week on average (the benefit of living in S Barbara).

Last a huge apology to everyone for the formatting on my original post. I'm horrified as it certainly didn't WYSIWYG based on what i typed up in MS Word!

LT

 

[nrhorwitz]

Thx for the quick reply and advice whoawhoa -

Currently my weekly TSS runs 700-1000, my CTL is 95 and ATL 125. I'm puting in roughly 12 or so hours per week on average (the benefit of living in S Barbara).

Last a huge apology to everyone for the formatting on my original post. I'm horrified as it certainly didn't WYSIWYG based on what i typed up in MS Word!

LT

I just did a quick calculation with the profile.

8.05 watts per kg for 1 min (Cat 2-3)
5.14 watts per kg for 5 minutes (Cat 1-2)
3.78 watts per kg for 20 minutes (Cat 3-4)

I think whoawhoa is right, you seem to be very good on the anaerobic side. Do you have any 5 seconds data (just out of curiousity)?

 

[peterpen]

I'd ditch one of the group rides on the weekend - those rarely are as effective as solo training.

Neither Wente nor Crapperopolis have terribly long climbs, but you need to bump up your w/kg a bit. I did well in 35+ cat 4 at both races last year and my max 10min was 288w, max 5' was 348 for Wente, not that far off from your #s. However, I weigh 10lbs less than you.

When you get dropped, what is it like? Is there a surge and you can't hang? Or do you just gradually start to drift OTB? And what is your endurance/ repeatability like? FWIW, my max 5' at Wente came on the final climb but my two max 10' efforts came during attacks earlier in the race.

 

[LT Intolerant]

AP for 5 sec is 1150 - it's funny, we have a couple of solid Masters Cat 2 & 3s that I ride with and I can go with the best of them on any 3-5% grade for 3-5 mins but after that, kapoot!

LT

 

[doctorSpoc]

I think i'm in the same boat as you great AC but really just ok LT... it suck but lots of upper L3 to mid L4 is my mission for this winter... doesn't sound like it is the case for you, but as whoawhoa said.. dip into L4 more if you are ever time challenged. I think the odd higher intensity stuff is good every now and then in an unstructured way.. your group rides should take care of that... go for a flyer every now or hammer a hill and then wait or town sign sprints.. but nothing structured and regular

 

[LT Intolerant]

I'd ditch one of the group rides on the weekend - those rarely are as effective as solo training.

When you get dropped, what is it like? Is there a surge and you can't hang? Or do you just gradually start to drift OTB? And what is your endurance/ repeatability like? FWIW, my max 5' at Wente came on the final climb but my two max 10' efforts came during attacks earlier in the race.

Thanks Peter. I know both courses well (won Crapper and took 2cnd at Wente as a M35+ Cat 4 in '94). But that was before animals like you raced in the M35 C4 category!

Endo is pretty good. I'm ususally pretty fresh when we hit the climb (12 min @ 5%) in our Saturday group ride. I'm usually in Tempo or SST wattage range leading up to climb. Sometimes the group is pushing and I'm closer to LT.

When I do get dropped it's more of a fade than a surge shaking me loose. My repeatability is pretty good (with 5-7% on 2cnd and 3rd efforts) when doing SST, LT, Vo2, or AC intervals.

What would you do in place of one of the weekend group rides? Thx much.

LT

 

[nrhorwitz]

Thanks Peter. I know both courses well (won Crapper and took 2cnd at Wente as a M35+ Cat 4 in '94). But that was before animals like you raced in the M35 C4 category!

Endo is pretty good. I'm ususally pretty fresh when we hit the climb (12 min @ 5%) in our Saturday group ride. I'm usually in Tempo or SST wattage range leading up to climb. Sometimes the group is pushing and I'm closer to LT.

When I do get dropped it's more of a fade than a surge shaking me loose. My repeatability is pretty good (with 5-7% on 2cnd and 3rd efforts) when doing SST, LT, Vo2, or AC intervals.

What would you do in place of one of the weekend group rides? Thx much.

LT

How about this? 110% or 120% of your FTP at 10-15 minutes? That should drive up your FTP after you've done several intervals of that. At least 2-3 intervals of that on a Saturday or Sunday.

I've found that to be helpful when I want to push up my FTP. And I agree with the other poster, it's better than a group ride.

 

[LT Intolerant]

How about this? 110% or 120% of your FTP at 10-15 minutes? That should drive up your FTP after you've done several intervals of that. At least 2-3 intervals of that on a Saturday or Sunday.

I've found that to be helpful when I want to push up my FTP. And I agree with the other poster, it's better than a group ride.

Thx much. I'll give it a try.

LT

 

[Woofer]

I live in the same area with almost the exact same w/kg for every category. You might never keep up on the hillier courses with that low of an FTP in the even the 35+ 4/5 races unless the competition was unusually sparse. In races with four to five minute hills, the low FTP hurts you because you are pushing yourself as hard as you can to stay with the pack before you get to the short hills so you use up some of the ability to use your shorter interval strengths to stay with the pack. If you don't improve that FTP number you may not want to even bother doing races with the longer hills like Copperopolis because unless you lose a significant amount of weight or increase your FTP the result is a forgone conclusion.

 

[LT Intolerant]

If you don't improve that FTP number you may not want to even bother doing races with the longer hills like Copperopolis because unless you lose a significant amount of weight or increase your FTP the result is a forgone conclusion.

Great point! My fear is being doomed (because of my low FTP) to do races that always end in a mass field sprint. Ugh.

LT

 

[peterpen]

Thanks Peter. I know both courses well (won Crapper and took 2cnd at Wente as a M35+ Cat 4 in '94). But that was before animals like you raced in the M35 C4 category!

Endo is pretty good. I'm ususally pretty fresh when we hit the climb (12 min @ 5%) in our Saturday group ride. I'm usually in Tempo or SST wattage range leading up to climb. Sometimes the group is pushing and I'm closer to LT.

When I do get dropped it's more of a fade than a surge shaking me loose. My repeatability is pretty good (with 5-7% on 2cnd and 3rd efforts) when doing SST, LT, Vo2, or AC intervals.

What would you do in place of one of the weekend group rides? Thx much.

LT

feh, I'm getting my @ss handed to me in the 3's now - but you'll still have to put up with all the sandbaggers too afraid to upgrade and go up against mutants like Hutchinson, etc.

FWIW, last winter I went from a w/kg FTP similar to your's to more like 280w/66kg. Obviously, losing weight helps. But I did lots of 30' climbs around my then-current FTP and just kept bumping it up. I started with 30' 20w below FTP, then 2x15 10w below FTP, then 3x10 at FTP (all on climbs.) I didn't start doing more intense stuff until January, then started racing in February.
Later in the winter, you might also experiment with under/over type intervals 5 or 6x (3'@90%FTP+3'@110%FTP+3'@90%FTP.) These aren't really aimed at raising FTP, but I'd find w.o.'s like those easier to incorporate into a winter training plan than a steady 10' or 15' well above FTP.

btw, I just went back and looked at my file from Copperopolis - I *thought* that was a hard all-day break.
AP 234w
NP 271w
max 5' 341w
max 10' 319w
Since I'll be doing 4 laps this year, you can bet I won't be the knucklehead attacking first time up the climb.

 

[LT Intolerant]

feh, I'm getting my @ss handed to me in the 3's now

I don't envy you! After that solid '94 season I upgraded and spent all of '95 and '96 getting shelled by M 1/2/3 mutants like Elgart, Winkel, Nolan, and Mount to the point where it drove me out of the sport after the '96 season (made my "comeback" 2 years ago). Now the M35-45 4/5s feel like the M1-3s back in the mid 90s!

I'll try the regimen you suggested and tell my wife, who is one helluva cook, to stay out of the kitchen. Thanks again, and to all for the great advice.

LT

 

[bikeguy]

]Weight – 154 lbs.

FTP – 266

[15 min AP – 281W

10 min AP – 290W

5 min AP – 364W

1 min AP – 569W

First of all, stop using so many fonts it doesn't even have any effect on the text and makes it really hard to snip something and reply.

Looking at your power numbers it looks like a big drop from 5 minutes to 10 minutes. In comparison, my power curve is relatively flatter from 5 to 15 minutes but I probably have been training longer than you. 2 years of endurance training will bring the lactate threshold up (1.5 years ago I was
very similar to your numbers and ratio).

-bikeguy

 

[RipVanCommittee]

but get shelled on longer climbs (10-12 mins for example).

let me guess--Casitas Pass??

Given your 1 minute power, I'm wondering how much of your 5 minute power is actually being fueled by AWC--so I think it's hard to tell from your power profile just how much TH power you're leaving on the table.

I know group rides are fun and all--and I can almost guarantee I've done the group rides you're doing while on vacation. However, I think the bottom line is this: if you want to really try to reach your potential, at a certain point you have to wean off of the group rides. They can have a good 'plot scattering' effect as the season nears, but they just aren't a very good use of time, in general; lots of short bursts, lots of coasting.

The last thing...are you as lean as you can get?

 

[LT Intolerant]

let me guess--Casitas Pass??

Given your 1 minute power, I'm wondering how much of your 5 minute power is actually being fueled by AWC--so I think it's hard to tell from your power profile just how much TH power you're leaving on the table.

...you have to wean off of the group rides.

...are you as lean as you can get?

We have a winner! Casitas Pass it is! I have wondered if AWC is fueling my 5 min power because of the spread between my FTP and my 5 min power, which is supposed to be V02 power, no?

I hear you and others on the group ride thing and will try a different approach.

Insofar as being as lean as possible? Probably not. I'm 5'9", 154, and my Tanita scale gives me readings of 7.5-8.5% body fat. I probably have more muscle mass than the average cyclist too (20+ years of ice hockey when I was younger). I've been as low as 148 lbs. but that was 13 years ago when I was 35. I know I have to drop a few lbs. Thx much for the insight and advice.

LT

 

[joemw]

CP = 266
15' = 281 (281-266=15) and 15x15=225
5' = 364 (364-266=98) and 98x5=490

 

[LT Intolerant]

CP = 266
15' = 281 (281-266=15) and 15x15=225
5' = 364 (364-266=98) and 98x5=490

Sorry Joe. Not following you. What are you trying to say?

 

[joemw]

Sorry Joe. Not following you. What are you trying to say?

Well, I'm sure someone will correct me if I've understood the FTP/CP model wrong, but it appears your 5 minute effort is using a substantial amount more of your AWC then your 15 minute effort. Meaning, you aren't truly maxing out on your 15 minute power. That could of course just mean that you've been fresher when doing a super-hard 5 minute effort compared to when you maxed out on an approximate 15 minute effort. But given equal freshness and motivation, it seems that the 10 and 15 minute power numbers are lower than they could be given your FTP and 5 minute power.

Either way, I've also found that group rides do nothing in terms of raising your FTP, unless you are creative about it. For instance, going off the front and going into TT mode when they are going slow. Or riding off the back and chasing most of the time. Otherwise, look at group rides as an AWC/VO2 type of ride.