Joy-tech cartridge bearing hub sucks?



T

Tomek Li

Guest
Hi all,

Being nowadays financially a bit on a lean side, I've purchased some four month ago a set of really cheap wheels Vuelta Starlite. They come with cart bearing hubs by Taiwanese company Joy-Tech. While the front wheel seems to be OK, the rear bearings have become very rough - actually unridable - after mere two hundred miles. Without second thought, I've replaced bearings, because 6000 series bearings come really cheap. Surprisingly there are only two such bearings in the hub, while I would expect three to be there. Anyway, again after I've put no more than 300 m, the same has happened. I would like to strike out, that I've installed bearings properly, no banging and excessive force, just pressed them into sockets using hub's quick release. Is it a design fault or what?

My warranty is gone, since I've replaced the first ones myself, and I'm trying to figure out how to repair damage. The hub is Shimano pattern, drilled 24 holes, anybody knows any source of reasonably priced hub I could use as replacement, as I hate idea of disposing off the wheel as a whole?

Cheers,

Tomek Li
 
J

jim beam

Guest
Tomek Li wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Being nowadays financially a bit on a lean side, I've purchased some
> four month ago a set of really cheap wheels Vuelta Starlite. They come
> with cart bearing hubs by Taiwanese company Joy-Tech. While the front
> wheel seems to be OK, the rear bearings have become very rough -
> actually unridable - after mere two hundred miles. Without second
> thought, I've replaced bearings, because 6000 series bearings come
> really cheap. Surprisingly there are only two such bearings in the hub,
> while I would expect three to be there. Anyway, again after I've put no
> more than 300 m, the same has happened. I would like to strike out, that
> I've installed bearings properly, no banging and excessive force, just
> pressed them into sockets using hub's quick release.


that could be one issue. when installing bearings, only apply force to
the race on which there's interference. pressing on the inner race when
the interference is on the outer can cause brinelling and consequently
much reduced service life.

> Is it a design
> fault or what?


much more likely, it's just cheap bearings and poor adjustment. 6000's
are usually cheap and nasty and don't last. you can track down some
higher quality ones at your local bearing supply house, but be prepared
to pay a lot more than a buck each or whatever it is the bulk online
retailers sell for. and for adjustment, makes sure that they don't
become over-tight when the skewer is clamped shut - that is typically
the case with q/r systems.

>
> My warranty is gone, since I've replaced the first ones myself, and I'm
> trying to figure out how to repair damage. The hub is Shimano pattern,
> drilled 24 holes, anybody knows any source of reasonably priced hub I
> could use as replacement, as I hate idea of disposing off the wheel as a
> whole?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Tomek Li
 
A

A Muzi

Guest
Tomek Li wrote:
> Being nowadays financially a bit on a lean side, I've purchased some
> four month ago a set of really cheap wheels Vuelta Starlite. They come
> with cart bearing hubs by Taiwanese company Joy-Tech. While the front
> wheel seems to be OK, the rear bearings have become very rough -
> actually unridable - after mere two hundred miles. Without second
> thought, I've replaced bearings, because 6000 series bearings come
> really cheap. Surprisingly there are only two such bearings in the hub,
> while I would expect three to be there. Anyway, again after I've put no
> more than 300 m, the same has happened. I would like to strike out, that
> I've installed bearings properly, no banging and excessive force, just
> pressed them into sockets using hub's quick release. Is it a design
> fault or what?
>
> My warranty is gone, since I've replaced the first ones myself, and I'm
> trying to figure out how to repair damage. The hub is Shimano pattern,
> drilled 24 holes, anybody knows any source of reasonably priced hub I
> could use as replacement, as I hate idea of disposing off the wheel as a
> whole?


When you installed the bearings, did you open them and fill with a good
quality grease ? Many bearings are sold with a protective oil coating to
prevent corrosion during transit/storage but not really 'lubricated ' in
any real sense.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
T

Tomek Li

Guest
"A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]

>
> When you installed the bearings, did you open them and fill with a good
> quality grease ? Many bearings are sold with a protective oil coating to
> prevent corrosion during transit/storage but not really 'lubricated ' in
> any real sense.


No, I haven't, just assumed, that they are properly greased. Perhaps I was
wrong. I have one more set of bearings home - Japanese KYK 6000ZCR, which
are more expensive than the ones I used previously. They are sealed with a
metallic gasket, so I'm wondering if it makes sense to pry them open just to
check how well lubricated they are. The seal looks quite fragile.

Cheers,

Tomek Li
 
T

Tomek Li

Guest
"jim beam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]

>
> that could be one issue. when installing bearings, only apply force to
> the race on which there's interference. pressing on the inner race when
> the interference is on the outer can cause brinelling and consequently
> much reduced service life.


This time I'll follow your suggestion, I have one more set of bearings
handy.
Thank you!

Cheers,

Tomek Li
 
A

A Muzi

Guest
> "A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote
>> When you installed the bearings, did you open them and fill with a good
>> quality grease ? Many bearings are sold with a protective oil coating to
>> prevent corrosion during transit/storage but not really 'lubricated ' in
>> any real sense.


Tomek Li wrote:
> No, I haven't, just assumed, that they are properly greased. Perhaps I was
> wrong. I have one more set of bearings home - Japanese KYK 6000ZCR, which
> are more expensive than the ones I used previously. They are sealed with a
> metallic gasket, so I'm wondering if it makes sense to pry them open just to
> check how well lubricated they are. The seal looks quite fragile.


As discussed here recently, an RS may be opened and resealed without any
trouble. A ZZ can't. There are a _lot_ of variants available in bearing
covers, shields, seals. The bearing maker doesn't know if you are going
to use this in an enclosed oil bath or in a dusty airflow or in a bicycle.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
R

Ron Ruff

Guest
On Aug 11, 7:51 am, "Tomek Li" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I would like to strike out, that I've installed bearings properly, no banging and excessive force, just pressed them into sockets using hub's quick release. Is it a design fault or what?


You probably want to use Enduro bearings (better sealed), and use a
socket that is the very slightly smaller than the outer diameter of
the bearing to press them in. As jim beam mentioned, if you apply a
lot of force to the inner race you could damage the bearing.
 
T

Tomek Li

Guest
"jim beam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Is it a design fault or what?

>
> much more likely, it's just cheap bearings and poor adjustment. 6000's
> are usually cheap and nasty and don't last. you can track down some
> higher quality ones at your local bearing supply house, but be prepared to
> pay a lot more than a buck each or whatever it is the bulk online
> retailers sell for. and for adjustment, makes sure that they don't become
> over-tight when the skewer is clamped shut - that is typically the case
> with q/r systems.


I've fit one more - the last one I have - set of bearings. As long as I did
not put the wheel on the bike everything was ok, bearings were running
smoothly. After applying skewer, things turn nasty.
The Joy-Tech axle is a smooth, non-threaded kind. There are two aluminum
elements which are supposed to fulcrum against the q/r skewing force, and
these are to be blocked on the axle with one tiny (M3) allen bolt each.
Before tightening the bolts, the slide along the axle free. I can hardly
believe, that such fixing is strong enough as to withstand the skewing
force, which is quite large.
After a second thougth, I've filed small indents on the surface of axle as
to provide the blocking bolts with some positive engagemet, not allowing for
even smallest amount of movement under q/r force.
Now I'm going for a ride as to check if it all makes any sense,

Thank you all,

Tomek Li
 
J

jim beam

Guest
Tomek Li wrote:
> "jim beam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> Is it a design fault or what?

>> much more likely, it's just cheap bearings and poor adjustment. 6000's
>> are usually cheap and nasty and don't last. you can track down some
>> higher quality ones at your local bearing supply house, but be prepared to
>> pay a lot more than a buck each or whatever it is the bulk online
>> retailers sell for. and for adjustment, makes sure that they don't become
>> over-tight when the skewer is clamped shut - that is typically the case
>> with q/r systems.

>
> I've fit one more - the last one I have - set of bearings. As long as I did
> not put the wheel on the bike everything was ok, bearings were running
> smoothly. After applying skewer, things turn nasty.
> The Joy-Tech axle is a smooth, non-threaded kind. There are two aluminum
> elements which are supposed to fulcrum against the q/r skewing force, and
> these are to be blocked on the axle with one tiny (M3) allen bolt each.
> Before tightening the bolts, the slide along the axle free. I can hardly
> believe, that such fixing is strong enough as to withstand the skewing
> force, which is quite large.
> After a second thougth, I've filed small indents on the surface of axle as
> to provide the blocking bolts with some positive engagemet, not allowing for
> even smallest amount of movement under q/r force.
> Now I'm going for a ride as to check if it all makes any sense,
>
> Thank you all,
>
> Tomek Li
>
>


there's a thin shimming washer used on some older ultegra crank sets.
if you can find one of those, you might be able to use it on the axle.
 
J

jim beam

Guest
Ron Ruff wrote:
> On Aug 11, 7:51 am, "Tomek Li" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I would like to strike out, that I've installed bearings properly, no banging and excessive force, just pressed them into sockets using hub's quick release. Is it a design fault or what?

>
> You probably want to use Enduro bearings (better sealed),


ugh, enduro suck. and their seals are "low friction", i.e. poor contact
so they don't in fact "seal" very well. basically, they're just cheapo
garbage sold as "bike specific" with excessive mark-up.

> and use a
> socket that is the very slightly smaller than the outer diameter of
> the bearing to press them in. As jim beam mentioned, if you apply a
> lot of force to the inner race you could damage the bearing.
>
 
R

Ron Ruff

Guest
On Aug 12, 8:26 am, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
> ugh, enduro suck. and their seals are "low friction", i.e. poor contact
> so they don't in fact "seal" very well. basically, they're just cheapo
> garbage sold as "bike specific" with excessive mark-up.


It was my understanding at least, that they have double lips on each
seal (LL designation). They certainly cost more than others! Do you
know of a better option?
 
L

Lou Holtman

Guest
Ron Ruff wrote:
> On Aug 12, 8:26 am, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>> ugh, enduro suck. and their seals are "low friction", i.e. poor contact
>> so they don't in fact "seal" very well. basically, they're just cheapo
>> garbage sold as "bike specific" with excessive mark-up.

>
> It was my understanding at least, that they have double lips on each
> seal (LL designation). They certainly cost more than others! Do you
> know of a better option?
>
>



2RS

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu (http://www.nb.nu)
 
J

jim beam

Guest
Ron Ruff wrote:
> On Aug 12, 8:26 am, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>> ugh, enduro suck. and their seals are "low friction", i.e. poor contact
>> so they don't in fact "seal" very well. basically, they're just cheapo
>> garbage sold as "bike specific" with excessive mark-up.

>
> It was my understanding at least, that they have double lips on each
> seal (LL designation). They certainly cost more than others! Do you
> know of a better option?



http://www.skf.com/portal/skf/home/products?newlink=1_1_6a&lang=en&maincatalogue=1

will cost you nearly 4 times as much.
 

daveornee

New Member
Sep 18, 2003
2,763
0
0
Ron Ruff said:
On Aug 12, 8:26 am, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
> ugh, enduro suck. and their seals are "low friction", i.e. poor contact
> so they don't in fact "seal" very well. basically, they're just cheapo
> garbage sold as "bike specific" with excessive mark-up.


It was my understanding at least, that they have double lips on each
seal (LL designation). They certainly cost more than others! Do you
know of a better option?
SKF are good and so are ALPINE, BARDEN, FAFNIR, GMN, NHBB, & RHP.
As another poster has already stated, make sure to get the ones with Rubber Seals on both sides (sometimes noted as 2RS and other designations such as SS). More seal drag some times makes for better protection from real world bicycle environmental issues. As Mr. Muzi has already stated, make sure their is good grease under the seals totally coating the bearing's surfaces (If it is "totally packed with grease then there is less "room" for contaminants.)
I think that CAREFULLY lifting the seal lips after a wet ride is a good practice to clean out (dry out any water and whatever the water washed inside) and leave a coating of fresh grease on the rubber lips too.
 
N

Nate Knutson

Guest
On Aug 12, 1:20 am, "Tomek Li" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "jim beam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> Is it a design fault or what?

>
> > much more likely, it's just cheap bearings and poor adjustment. 6000's
> > are usually cheap and nasty and don't last. you can track down some
> > higher quality ones at your local bearing supply house, but be prepared to
> > pay a lot more than a buck each or whatever it is the bulk online
> > retailers sell for. and for adjustment, makes sure that they don't become
> > over-tight when the skewer is clamped shut - that is typically the case
> > with q/r systems.

>
> I've fit one more - the last one I have - set of bearings. As long as I did
> not put the wheel on the bike everything was ok, bearings were running
> smoothly. After applying skewer, things turn nasty.
> The Joy-Tech axle is a smooth, non-threaded kind. There are two aluminum
> elements which are supposed to fulcrum against the q/r skewing force, and
> these are to be blocked on the axle with one tiny (M3) allen bolt each.
> Before tightening the bolts, the slide along the axle free. I can hardly
> believe, that such fixing is strong enough as to withstand the skewing
> force, which is quite large.
> After a second thougth, I've filed small indents on the surface of axle as
> to provide the blocking bolts with some positive engagemet, not allowing for
> even smallest amount of movement under q/r force.
> Now I'm going for a ride as to check if it all makes any sense,
>
> Thank you all,
>
> Tomek Li


I've dealt with hubs that sound like this before, but it's been a
while. I believe the way they're supposed to work is that the sliding
aluminum caps with the grub screws are supposed to contact the inner
race of the bearing, and the grub screws are there to prevent the caps
from rotating, not to resist the force of the QR. There may have been
a thin spacer between the bearing and the caps, too.
 
C

Chalo

Guest
On Aug 12, 9:26 am, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ron Ruff wrote:
> > On Aug 11, 7:51 am, "Tomek Li" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> I would like to strike out, that I've installed bearings properly, no banging and excessive force, just pressed them into sockets using hub's quick release. Is it a design fault or what?

>
> > You probably want to use Enduro bearings (better sealed),

>
> ugh, enduro suck. and their seals are "low friction", i.e. poor contact
> so they don't in fact "seal" very well. basically, they're just cheapo
> garbage sold as "bike specific" with excessive mark-up.


I've had good luck with them so far; they have sometimes outlasted the
German or Japanese bearings they replaced. At bike shop prices, many
of the sizes are less expensive than the cheap Chinese stuff at
bearing houses.

The "bike specific" and value-added part is the complete fill with
waterproof grease. That would make a mess of the average electric
motor.

Chalo
 
R

Ron Ruff

Guest
On Aug 12, 11:18 am, daveornee <[email protected]
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> SKF are good and so are ALPINE, BARDEN, FAFNIR, GMN, NHBB, & RHP.
> As another poster has already stated, make sure to get the ones with
> Rubber Seals on both sides (sometimes noted as 2RS and other
> designations such as SS).


The bearings have rubber seals on both sides (though I think it is
only necessary on the outside), but what I'm wondering about is the
*quality* of this seal as far as keeping out water. I was told that a
double lip is needed on each seal, and the Enduros have this... most
others do not. On the SKF site, type RSH seem to have the best seals
for keeping out water, but I didn't see how they were made. I'd guess
that the Chinese bearings that you can buy for a dollar each don't
have very good seals.
 

daveornee

New Member
Sep 18, 2003
2,763
0
0
Ron Ruff said:
On Aug 12, 11:18 am, daveornee <[email protected]
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> SKF are good and so are ALPINE, BARDEN, FAFNIR, GMN, NHBB, & RHP.
> As another poster has already stated, make sure to get the ones with
> Rubber Seals on both sides (sometimes noted as 2RS and other
> designations such as SS).


The bearings have rubber seals on both sides (though I think it is
only necessary on the outside), but what I'm wondering about is the
*quality* of this seal as far as keeping out water. I was told that a
double lip is needed on each seal, and the Enduros have this... most
others do not. On the SKF site, type RSH seem to have the best seals
for keeping out water, but I didn't see how they were made. I'd guess
that the Chinese bearings that you can buy for a dollar each don't
have very good seals.
I think you have two valuable assertions here:
1. Double lip on the Enduro seals
2. The possibility of leaving off the "Inside" seal; thus reducing seal drag.

Chalo stated another which Mr. Muzi already mentioned; 3. Packing the bearing with water proof grease (often so full that some weeps out the seals).
There are some high quality hub manufacturers out there that use cartridge bearings. It would seem that we could find out from users of the Phil Wood, White Industries, Chris King, and Campy 2007 (all but Record hub) users which brand(s) and models work the best and what configuration works best.
I assert that leaving the "inside" seal on is useful to assist in containing the full load of waterproof grease and otherwise assisting in keeping out contaminants.
Jim Beam asserted that Enduro bearings are "****". Chalo disagrees; and so do I.
 
R

Ron Ruff

Guest
On Aug 13, 7:33 am, daveornee <[email protected]
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> I assert that leaving the "inside" seal on is useful to assist in
> containing the full load of waterproof grease and otherwise assisting
> in keeping out contaminants.


That makes perfect sense... I didn't consider the grease coming out
that side. I guess there is also a chance for a little water intrusion
around the axle/race interface.
 

daveornee

New Member
Sep 18, 2003
2,763
0
0
Ron Ruff said:
On Aug 13, 7:33 am, daveornee <[email protected]
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> I assert that leaving the "inside" seal on is useful to assist in
> containing the full load of waterproof grease and otherwise assisting
> in keeping out contaminants.


That makes perfect sense... I didn't consider the grease coming out
that side. I guess there is also a chance for a little water intrusion
around the axle/race interface.
Yes, and I think Jim Beam needs to take another look at Enduro bearings. They have many different options for bicycle hub cartridge bearings. I think they provide good values for the applications. They have quality materials and good application specific engineering (and implementation) for bicycle hubs with cartridge bearings. The double lip light contact and full contact seals are quite good. They have both ABEC 5 and 10 grade ball bearings as well as high precision in the other bearing surfaces.