Joy-tech cartridge bearing hub sucks?

[Pikachu]

In article <[email protected]>,
jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ron Ruff wrote:
> > On Aug 12, 8:26 am, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> ugh, enduro suck. and their seals are "low friction", i.e. poor contact
> >> so they don't in fact "seal" very well. basically, they're just cheapo
> >> garbage sold as "bike specific" with excessive mark-up.
> >
> > It was my understanding at least, that they have double lips on each
> > seal (LL designation). They certainly cost more than others! Do you
> > know of a better option?
>
>
> http://www.skf.com/portal/skf/home/products?newlink=1_1_6a&lang=en&maincatalog
> ue=1
>
> will cost you nearly 4 times as much.

Given that the failure mode for bicycle sealed bearings is contaminant
intrusion, how will the indicated improvements of "Improved bearing
steel", "Unique SKF heat treatment procedures", and "Improved surface
finish" of these 4-times-as-expensive SKF "Explorer" bearings help?

Pikachu

 

[jim beam]

Pikachu wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Ron Ruff wrote:
>>> On Aug 12, 8:26 am, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> ugh, enduro suck. and their seals are "low friction", i.e. poor contact
>>>> so they don't in fact "seal" very well. basically, they're just cheapo
>>>> garbage sold as "bike specific" with excessive mark-up.
>>> It was my understanding at least, that they have double lips on each
>>> seal (LL designation). They certainly cost more than others! Do you
>>> know of a better option?
>>
>> http://www.skf.com/portal/skf/home/products?newlink=1_1_6a&lang=en&maincatalog
>> ue=1
>>
>> will cost you nearly 4 times as much.
>
> Given that the failure mode for bicycle sealed bearings is contaminant
> intrusion,

eh? what's your data source for that little nugget? what about the
bearings that fail though mileage, overload, misalignment, brinelling
during inexpert maintenance, etc.?

> how will the indicated improvements of "Improved bearing
> steel", "Unique SKF heat treatment procedures", and "Improved surface
> finish" of these 4-times-as-expensive SKF "Explorer" bearings help?
>
> Pikachu

here's why:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/1110408641/

 

[Pikachu]

In article <[email protected]>,
jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:

> Pikachu wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> http://www.skf.com/portal/skf/home/products?newlink=1_1_6a&lang=en&maincata
> >> logue=1
> >>
> >> will cost you nearly 4 times as much.
> >
> > Given that the failure mode for bicycle sealed bearings is contaminant
> > intrusion,
>
> eh? what's your data source for that little nugget? what about the
> bearings that fail though mileage, overload, misalignment, brinelling
> during inexpert maintenance, etc.?

My data source is my own limited experience, and my reading of the
general consensus of internet sources such as this newsgroup. As
reference only, I have been wrenching on bicycles for about 25 years,
albeit non-professionally, but I know of no wheel bearings that failed
from mileage, overload or brinelling.

Regardless, are you stating that most bearings do not fail from
contaminant intrusion? From prior postings, it would seem that you
consider seal design to be one of the most important aspect of bearing
design, as used on bicycle wheels. In fact, one can presuppose that
your staunch recommendation for cartridge type bearings over traditional
cups-n-cones bearings is your claim of better seals on the cartridge
type bearings. Is it not?


> > how will the indicated improvements of "Improved bearing
> > steel", "Unique SKF heat treatment procedures", and "Improved surface
> > finish" of these 4-times-as-expensive SKF "Explorer" bearings help?
>
> here's why:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/1110408641/

My Enduro "Max" bearings certainly do not look anything like that.
According to Enduro, they are "2RS" with "Dual-lip medium/high contact"
seals that upon cursory inspection are not different than the bearings
on my Phil Wood hubs. The contact seals apply a noticeable drag when
the uninstalled bearing is turned by hand. Price? Less than $3 each.

Again, how can the SKF "Explorer" bearings improve upon these, as used
in bicycle wheels?

Pikachu

 

[jim beam]

Pikachu wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Pikachu wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>> jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://www.skf.com/portal/skf/home/products?newlink=1_1_6a&lang=en&maincata
>>>> logue=1
>>>>
>>>> will cost you nearly 4 times as much.
>>> Given that the failure mode for bicycle sealed bearings is contaminant
>>> intrusion,
>> eh? what's your data source for that little nugget? what about the
>> bearings that fail though mileage, overload, misalignment, brinelling
>> during inexpert maintenance, etc.?
>
> My data source is my own limited experience, and my reading of the
> general consensus of internet sources such as this newsgroup. As
> reference only, I have been wrenching on bicycles for about 25 years,
> albeit non-professionally, but I know of no wheel bearings that failed
> from mileage, overload or brinelling.

if you're using bearings with seals like the one in my picture, then
yes, they probably /will/ suffer grit intrusion. and most "bike
quality" bearings are like that from what i've seen.

>
> Regardless, are you stating that most bearings do not fail from
> contaminant intrusion?

not if they have proper seals, no. the skf bearings on my mavic cosmos
wheels have endured /way/ more abuse than shimano bearings in the same
wet weather application.

> From prior postings, it would seem that you
> consider seal design to be one of the most important aspect of bearing
> design, as used on bicycle wheels.

not in bearing design, in bike application.

> In fact, one can presuppose that
> your staunch recommendation for cartridge type bearings over traditional
> cups-n-cones bearings is your claim of better seals on the cartridge
> type bearings. Is it not?

only if the bearing quality is sufficient! cheap bearings have poor
seals. that's one of the things that makes them cheap.

>
>
>>> how will the indicated improvements of "Improved bearing
>>> steel", "Unique SKF heat treatment procedures", and "Improved surface
>>> finish" of these 4-times-as-expensive SKF "Explorer" bearings help?
>> here's why:
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/1110408641/
>
> My Enduro "Max" bearings certainly do not look anything like that.

have you removed one seal and done a light test?

> According to Enduro, they are "2RS" with "Dual-lip medium/high contact"
> seals that upon cursory inspection are not different than the bearings
> on my Phil Wood hubs. The contact seals apply a noticeable drag when
> the uninstalled bearing is turned by hand. Price? Less than $3 each.

how do you know it's seal drag? have you compared drag with and without
seals on the same bearing?

>
> Again, how can the SKF "Explorer" bearings improve upon these, as used
> in bicycle wheels?

quality. experience.