Just can't get adjusted to this bike



P

Preston Crawford

Guest
Lower back pain, still some knee pain. I don't know what to do. I even
went as far as to take the bike back to my other LBS and paid them to get
a fitting done on it and while the fitting is better I'm still in pain and
still feel like I'm leaning too far forward. I don't know if I'm just
injured at this point. Just getting used to a new bike or if this 55 frame
doesn't work for my body type (remembering that my old Trek 1000 was a
58). I'm so spun around, I don't know what to do. I just want to ride, be
comfortable and stop screwing around with my bike.

Preston
 
Preston Crawford wrote:
> Lower back pain, still some knee pain. I don't know what to do. I

even
> went as far as to take the bike back to my other LBS and paid them to

get
> a fitting done on it and while the fitting is better I'm still in

pain and
> still feel like I'm leaning too far forward. I don't know if I'm just


> injured at this point. Just getting used to a new bike or if this 55

frame
> doesn't work for my body type (remembering that my old Trek 1000 was

a
> 58). I'm so spun around, I don't know what to do. I just want to

ride, be
> comfortable and stop screwing around with my bike.
>
> Preston


So, when they did the fit at the "other" bike shop what did they
say/do? Were there major adjustments? Did they say the frame was the
wrong size?
I have no idea what is actually causing your problems but it seems to
be that you have to find someone you trust and determine if the bike is
fit correctly or not.
In my experience if the bike was fit properly the first time you should
not be seeing anything other than some very minor tweaking when you re
do the fit a short while later. But, if you are in pain I think that
could throw the whole process off. The idea is to get you into an
efficient and comforable position. So, if you are starting out in pain
I think the process will be not very good.
 
On 2005-01-10, gds <[email protected]> wrote:
> So, when they did the fit at the "other" bike shop what did they
> say/do? Were there major adjustments? Did they say the frame was the
> wrong size?


Pretty much. They said it nicely, of course, not trying to say anything
bad about the other shop or anything. But the fitter was concerned that
since was 6'1", that my long torso, in spite of my short legs,
necessitated a bigger bike, even if it meant doing funky things to get it
to fit (as they did with my other bike). The adjustments in the end were
to get the seat level (the seat post on the bike wasn't the kind that
allowed you to get an exact levelness) and they put a stem on that pushed
me much further out.

> I have no idea what is actually causing your problems but it seems to
> be that you have to find someone you trust and determine if the bike is
> fit correctly or not.


Well, that's the thing. I've had my differences with old LBS over many
things. And I wish they were better about swapping parts out, etc. But
they are renowned for their ability to get people fit. I've had 4 fittings
done there with 3 different people, and they've all gone very well. But we
were always starting with a bike that the person was confident was a good
starting point. That wasn't the case this time. On one occassion, a fitter
even took a fit from an old bike, transferred it to a new bike and the new
bike fit like a glove. So I trust them implicitly because they're trained
by one of the best fitters there is (Google Michael Sylvester).

So basically where the fitter left it was that she thought this current
setup *should* work, but that she was concerned about the size of the
bike. And she told me to give it a couple weeks and then return the parts
to her if it didn't work out.

The problem is, at a certain point, I've got a bike that's seen a lot of
weather and what do I do with that without totally pissing off the other
bike shop, or without losing my shorts by selling it. Plus, it's hard to
suss out whether I'm still feeling pain because the bike just isn't right
or because I'm injured by it not being right earlier. And if it's the
latter. Either way, this process is starting to take to much of my time
and energy that I should be using just biking.

> In my experience if the bike was fit properly the first time you should
> not be seeing anything other than some very minor tweaking when you re
> do the fit a short while later. But, if you are in pain I think that
> could throw the whole process off. The idea is to get you into an
> efficient and comforable position. So, if you are starting out in pain
> I think the process will be not very good.


That's likely. And that's why I'm not sure what to do. Part of me thinks
step A is to just return everything (if I can) or sell it and go running
back to my old bike and just live with having to clean it daily. Another
part of me thinks that step A is to visit the sports doctor and see if
I've been injured in this process. And if I have, if I shouldn't wait. But
the doctor I see is excellent and consequently booked out forever. So it
would take a couple weeks to see him. Thus a couple weeks off the bike. A
couple weeks of owning a bike where I don't know if it's the bike or me at
this point.

So it's coming down to $1300 down the drain and I'm in pain and not riding
and I just want to get riding again and figure out what to do and I'm not
sure where to start.

Preston
 
Preston Crawford wrote:
> On 2005-01-10, gds <[email protected]> wrote:
> > So, when they did the fit at the "other" bike shop what did they
> > say/do? Were there major adjustments? Did they say the frame was

the
> > wrong size?

>
> Pretty much. They said it nicely, of course, not trying to say

anything
> bad about the other shop or anything. But the fitter was concerned

that
> since was 6'1", that my long torso, in spite of my short legs,
> necessitated a bigger bike, even if it meant doing funky things to

get it
> to fit (as they did with my other bike). The adjustments in the end

were
> to get the seat level (the seat post on the bike wasn't the kind that


> allowed you to get an exact levelness) and they put a stem on that

pushed
> me much further out.
>
> > I have no idea what is actually causing your problems but it seems

to
> > be that you have to find someone you trust and determine if the

bike is
> > fit correctly or not.

>
> Well, that's the thing. I've had my differences with old LBS over

many
> things. And I wish they were better about swapping parts out, etc.

But
> they are renowned for their ability to get people fit. I've had 4

fittings
> done there with 3 different people, and they've all gone very well.

But we
> were always starting with a bike that the person was confident was a

good
> starting point. That wasn't the case this time. On one occassion, a

fitter
> even took a fit from an old bike, transferred it to a new bike and

the new
> bike fit like a glove. So I trust them implicitly because they're

trained
> by one of the best fitters there is (Google Michael Sylvester).
>
> So basically where the fitter left it was that she thought this

current
> setup *should* work, but that she was concerned about the size of the


> bike. And she told me to give it a couple weeks and then return the

parts
> to her if it didn't work out.
>
> The problem is, at a certain point, I've got a bike that's seen a lot

of
> weather and what do I do with that without totally pissing off the

other
> bike shop, or without losing my shorts by selling it. Plus, it's hard

to
> suss out whether I'm still feeling pain because the bike just isn't

right
> or because I'm injured by it not being right earlier. And if it's the


> latter. Either way, this process is starting to take to much of my

time
> and energy that I should be using just biking.
>
> > In my experience if the bike was fit properly the first time you

should
> > not be seeing anything other than some very minor tweaking when you

re
> > do the fit a short while later. But, if you are in pain I think

that
> > could throw the whole process off. The idea is to get you into an
> > efficient and comforable position. So, if you are starting out in

pain
> > I think the process will be not very good.

>
> That's likely. And that's why I'm not sure what to do. Part of me

thinks
> step A is to just return everything (if I can) or sell it and go

running
> back to my old bike and just live with having to clean it daily.

Another
> part of me thinks that step A is to visit the sports doctor and see

if
> I've been injured in this process. And if I have, if I shouldn't

wait. But
> the doctor I see is excellent and consequently booked out forever. So

it
> would take a couple weeks to see him. Thus a couple weeks off the

bike. A
> couple weeks of owning a bike where I don't know if it's the bike or

me at
> this point.
>
> So it's coming down to $1300 down the drain and I'm in pain and not

riding
> and I just want to get riding again and figure out what to do and I'm

not
> sure where to start.
>
> Preston


Well it sounds to me like you should at least go back to where you
bought and had the bike fit (same place I assume) and let them know the
problems you are having, the comments of the other person who tried to
re-fit the bike and that you are not a happy camper. If they are legit
they should try (real hard)to make it right. Reputation is pretty
important for a LBS and so... .
To me if they fit and sold you a bike frame that is innapropriate they
should be taking any economic hit and not you.
 
"Preston Crawford" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Lower back pain, still some knee pain. I don't know what to do. I even
> went as far as to take the bike back to my other LBS and paid them to get
> a fitting done on it and while the fitting is better I'm still in pain and
> still feel like I'm leaning too far forward. I don't know if I'm just
> injured at this point. Just getting used to a new bike or if this 55 frame
> doesn't work for my body type (remembering that my old Trek 1000 was a
> 58). I'm so spun around, I don't know what to do. I just want to ride, be
> comfortable and stop screwing around with my bike.
>
> Preston


I was looking through some of your old posts related to this and I don't
recall seeing anyone referring you to the "KOPS Myth" info. Take a look at
Keith Bontrager's take on bike fit. Seems like many people have there seats
to far forward which weights the shoulders and arms and it all goes downhill
from there.


The following is some really interesting advice on position that considers
your body composition and flexibility rather than dogmatic rules. If you've
got the time, start with the bottom article first. It focuses on your bodies
fore / aft balance point and it's relationship to the bottom bracket.
Everything else follows from there. If you can work your way through this
you can be comfortable.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=2004/letters08-09
Knee over pedal spindle
http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=2004/letters07-26#Cleat
Cleat position #1 and #2
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/kops.html
Myth of KOPS, Bontrager


Bill
 
"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> I was looking through some of your old posts related to this and I don't
> recall seeing anyone referring you to the "KOPS Myth" info. Take a look at
> Keith Bontrager's take on bike fit. Seems like many people have there
> seats
> to far forward which weights the shoulders and arms and it all goes
> downhill
> from there.


I think the proliferation of this Bontrager article does a disservice to
many transportational/recreational riders who are told that "KOPS is a
myth," without further investigation. Bontrager doesn't really address the
relationsop of knee/pedal as it affects knee stress especially in older/less
fit riders.

My belief is that by starting a fitting with KOPS and making sure there's
room to move the saddle back even more, riders can achieve a position that's
less stessful on the knees and more suitable for spinning up hills. This
mandates a frame that is sufficiently large, if not a bit too large.

This is the opposite of the way road bikes are generally fit to racing
riders, and isn't the result usually achieved by typical fitting methods.

I would advise Preston to check whether the bike allows KOPS with the saddle
at the correct height and positioned somewhere near the center of its rails.
The best-fitting bike, IMO, is achieved by first putting the saddle in that
position, and then adjusting the stem for reach and height. If anything
extreme is required -- extra-long seat posts, super-long or -short stems,
etc. -- then a frame with different geometry or size may be indicated.

RichC
 
On 2005-01-10, Rich Clark <[email protected]> wrote:
> I think the proliferation of this Bontrager article does a disservice to
> many transportational/recreational riders who are told that "KOPS is a
> myth," without further investigation. Bontrager doesn't really address the
> relationsop of knee/pedal as it affects knee stress especially in older/less
> fit riders.
>
> My belief is that by starting a fitting with KOPS and making sure there's
> room to move the saddle back even more, riders can achieve a position that's
> less stessful on the knees and more suitable for spinning up hills. This
> mandates a frame that is sufficiently large, if not a bit too large.


This is the big question with me. My current bike, my Trek 1000, fits
perfect. Granted, they had to do something really funky to get a proper
stem height, but it fits perfectly. So it made sense to me when the other
LBS went with a smaller frame. My thinking being that if the 58 was long
that in order to get tall the shop had to come up with that funky quill
stem, then maybe the 58 is too big. But for whatever reason, the 55 just
isn't working. So perhaps with my long torso the 58 is what I need to
stretch out. It's just that I have a weird build, perhaps.

I don't know.

Preston
 
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:34:15 -0600, Preston Crawford
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Lower back pain, still some knee pain. I don't know what to do. I even
>went as far as to take the bike back to my other LBS and paid them to get
>a fitting done on it and while the fitting is better I'm still in pain and
>still feel like I'm leaning too far forward. I don't know if I'm just
>injured at this point. Just getting used to a new bike or if this 55 frame
>doesn't work for my body type (remembering that my old Trek 1000 was a
>58). I'm so spun around, I don't know what to do. I just want to ride, be
>comfortable and stop screwing around with my bike.
>
>Preston


Hi, are you in pain when you ride your old bike[the one that fits]?
If so, then you are going to have to wait, until the discomfort is
gone and then evaluate the new bike, again.
And if you are in pain on the old one, go see the doctor, even if it
takes a while to get in.
If you keep riding, while, hurt, it probably won't get better.


Life is Good!
Jeff
 
Preston Crawford wrote:
>
> This is the big question with me. My current bike, my Trek

1000, fits
> perfect.


Well, I would try this.
Take every possible measurement on the Trek 1000, and
compare them to the measurements on your newer bike. You
can do these in pairs (i.e. distance between pedals on
bike1, bike2, then seat angle on bike1, bike2, etc.) This
may give you some idea what the big differences are and
provide some food for your thought.
 
"Preston Crawford" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
<snip>
> > My belief is that by starting a fitting with KOPS and making sure

there's
> > room to move the saddle back even more, riders can achieve a position

that's
> > less stessful on the knees and more suitable for spinning up hills. This
> > mandates a frame that is sufficiently large, if not a bit too large.

>
> This is the big question with me. My current bike, my Trek 1000, fits
> perfect. Granted, they had to do something really funky to get a proper
> stem height, but it fits perfectly. So it made sense to me when the other
> LBS went with a smaller frame. My thinking being that if the 58 was long
> that in order to get tall the shop had to come up with that funky quill
> stem, then maybe the 58 is too big. But for whatever reason, the 55 just
> isn't working. So perhaps with my long torso the 58 is what I need to
> stretch out. It's just that I have a weird build, perhaps.
>
> I don't know.
>
> Preston


Preston, seems like you are over thinking this. If your Trek is comfortable,
why not take both bikes to the shop (first one where you bought the bike)
and ask them match the position. Start with the seat in relationship to the
bottom bracket. Since it is a smaller frame and you have a long torso you
will probably need to get creative with the stem rise and length to get the
bars in the right location. Apologies, if this has already been done.
Bill Brannon
 
On 2005-01-11, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> Preston, seems like you are over thinking this. If your Trek is comfortable,
> why not take both bikes to the shop (first one where you bought the bike)
> and ask them match the position. Start with the seat in relationship to the
> bottom bracket. Since it is a smaller frame and you have a long torso you
> will probably need to get creative with the stem rise and length to get the
> bars in the right location. Apologies, if this has already been done.
> Bill Brannon


No apologies needed. However, that's why I'm not really overthinking this,
because this has been done already. I think the real problem came when I
went from the Castro Valley to the Volpe. They had both bikes in the shop,
and they got it to be close, from what they could see. But then when I
decided the gearing on the Castro Valley was a problem, they put me on a
Volpe and kind of pushed me towards the 55. So I haven't been on a 58
Volpe and had that lined up against my bike to determine whether the
problem is the bike or me. Obviously with the Castro Valley the problem
was gearing. With the Volpe the gearing obviously should be fine so it's
either me or something to do wtih the bike.

I'm taking my bike in today and they're going to compare them.

Preston
 
On 2005-01-11, Jeff Starr <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi, are you in pain when you ride your old bike[the one that fits]?
> If so, then you are going to have to wait, until the discomfort is
> gone and then evaluate the new bike, again.
> And if you are in pain on the old one, go see the doctor, even if it
> takes a while to get in.
> If you keep riding, while, hurt, it probably won't get better.


Oh, totally. That's the debate right now. Whether to jump on my old bike
today, or not. I know I'm not jumping on the Volpe today. but I hate days
of my bike so I'm thinking of riding my old bike today. But yeah, if it
hurts when I ride it, I know it's probably me at that point.

Preston
 
On 2005-01-11, Mike Kruger <[email protected]> wrote:
> Well, I would try this.
> Take every possible measurement on the Trek 1000, and
> compare them to the measurements on your newer bike. You
> can do these in pairs (i.e. distance between pedals on
> bike1, bike2, then seat angle on bike1, bike2, etc.) This
> may give you some idea what the big differences are and
> provide some food for your thought.


They did that the first time with the 58 Castro Valley. But then when the
gearing wasn't good on the Castro Valley they sent me out the door with a
55 Volpe. I was unsure, they seemed sure. Now we're in a spot where the 55
doesn't work and it's like I'd like to be perfectly healed before taking
that bike in (they've offered to swap the 55 for a 58 Volpe), but that
gets us to 3 bikes, at which point I imagine this is becoming a real pain
for the bike shop, not to mention myself.

That is the plan right now, though.

Preston
 
On 2005-01-10, gds <[email protected]> wrote:
> Well it sounds to me like you should at least go back to where you
> bought and had the bike fit (same place I assume) and let them know the
> problems you are having, the comments of the other person who tried to
> re-fit the bike and that you are not a happy camper. If they are legit
> they should try (real hard)to make it right. Reputation is pretty
> important for a LBS and so... .
> To me if they fit and sold you a bike frame that is innapropriate they
> should be taking any economic hit and not you.


I agree. And after talking to them yesterday they're willing to return the
55 for a size 58. Not willing to do a full return, though. So now the
quandry is whether to put myself through this again with another bike and
hope that it works and that I'm not too injured to get this to fit me
right.

Preston
 
Preston Crawford wrote:
> On 2005-01-10, gds <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Well it sounds to me like you should at least go back to where you
> > bought and had the bike fit (same place I assume) and let them know

the
> > problems you are having, the comments of the other person who tried

to
> > re-fit the bike and that you are not a happy camper. If they are

legit
> > they should try (real hard)to make it right. Reputation is pretty
> > important for a LBS and so... .
> > To me if they fit and sold you a bike frame that is innapropriate

they
> > should be taking any economic hit and not you.

>
> I agree. And after talking to them yesterday they're willing to

return the
> 55 for a size 58. Not willing to do a full return, though. So now the


> quandry is whether to put myself through this again with another bike

and
> hope that it works and that I'm not too injured to get this to fit me


> right.
>
> Preston


I wonder how you were feeling during the fit process. I think that
sometimes folks are too willing to "please" the expert (fitter)or folks
are unsure what a good fit feels like. Fit is not just a matter of
measurement and good feedback from the fittee is crucial to a good
final product. My guess is that you will be a lot more conscious of
your part in the process the next time around.
And I think your concerns about waiting a while before getting refit
are sound. If you start out in pain I think it would be very difficult
to have a good fit process.