Just how low have you gone (TSB)?

[bgoetz]

You don't realize just how exhausted you were until day 4-5 of a rest week. Well it is day 5 of my rest week and I feel pretty awesome, good enough that I think I went a bit too far with things. I am coming off of a 5 week block and the last two days were a combined 550 TSS, but in any case my TSB on Monday was -41!! Now this may be a bit deceiving because I have a feeling that my FTP has increased, so some of the latter TSS may have not been reflective. In any case I felt like pure hell Monday and truthfully my legs still are not 100%. I still felt productive the last two weeks of the block, at least on the bike. However, my mind was slow and my wife said I was in a constant fog, doing anything beyond sitting on the couch felt like a chore, and I found myself really irritable. In either case I think I will avoid going this deep EVER again, it just ruins me as a person, not so much on the bike, but hell who cares about that if you feel like trash all of the time!! So how low have you gone?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

-37.4 is my TSB lowpoint for the past year, a handful of days at or below -30 and a lot of days (as in over 3 consecutive months) that were TSB negative during the winter build.

Frankly I don't find TSB in isolation to be that useful. I'm more interested in CTL dynamics and to some extent ATL dynamics. Sure they're all linked but hitting -30 after a string of -20 to -25 days is different than hitting -30 because of a one day huge ride that sets me back for a bunch of days to recover. And hitting -30 early in a build cycle when CTL is low (clearly not your case) isn't always that stressful as that big day might not really have been that big but hit -30 when your CTL is already North of 100 and do so from a one day huge ride and you'll likely be wiped out for a while as the TSS for that one day ride has to be really big.

-Dave

 

[bgoetz]

Yeah, my CTL is north of 90, heading into Saturday I was already low, then that big hit on the weekend buried me. Just based on how good I feel now, I can't allow myself to feel that bad again. I just didn't realize how out of sorts I was until now. It didn't reflect so much to the bike, but just in general. I wonder how much of that has to do with the fact that ALL of my training has been comprised of indoors or sub freezing temps. The whole weekend was a high of 25, windy, and a snowy mess!

 

[JibberJim]

Originally Posted by bgoetz .

Yeah, my CTL is north of 90, heading into Saturday I was already low, then that big hit on the weekend buried me.

Just based on how good I feel now, I can't allow myself to feel that bad again. I just didn't realize how out of sorts I was until now. It didn't reflect so much to the bike, but just in general. I wonder how much of that has to do with the fact that ALL of my training has been comprised of indoors or sub freezing temps. The whole weekend was a high of 25, windy, and a snowy mess!

Very recently I was -80 when I had to ease back on training 'cos I headed back to work. The day before that I did 70 minutes at 323 watts, and followed that up the day after with 30 minutes at 358, my two highest powers for some time (and my highest ever 30 minutes in w/kg terms) I'm pretty sure that I could've carried on riding and improving - the weather and work back in the UK wasn't very conducive to riding so I didn't get to do much, but I had no issues with what I did.

Previously I've not been higher in absolute terms (I've always previously done similar big blocks with a higher initial CTL so the TSB never went as absolutely negative, however I've sustained at -60 on a ~95 starting CTL for something like 9 days.

I can't get the PMC model to work for me with any constants as a predictor for performance, CTL alone is a good predictor of performance though.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by JibberJim .


Very recently I was -80 w...

Yow, that's a very deep training hole!

 

[bgoetz]

Do you think it is safe to make a blanket statement that all real elite level cyclists who train to be competitive work themselves till they feel like total ****, at least on occasion (significant fatigue, moodiness, lack of motivation to do anything but sit). Or are there some (maybe more than I think) that have found a way to maintain a good balance?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by bgoetz .

Do you think it is safe to make a blanket statement that all real elite level cyclists who train to be competitive work themselves till they feel like total ****, at least on occasion (significant fatigue, moodiness, lack of motivation to do anything but sit). Or are there some (maybe more than I think) that have found a way to maintain a good balance?

I'd say it's safe to say that competitive personalities, which likely describes all of us who stay with a training program long enough to see results or who regularly like to test ourselves in the competitive environment of racing, are typically at risk to trash themselves thoroughly and occasionally over reach or even clinically over train. But I'm sure some have better discipline or better coaching or better abilities to tune into and listen to their bodies or the ability to pull back and see the big picture better than others.

So I don't know if every competitive athlete buries themselves from time to time or whether some avoid that with one coping mechanism or another but the whole process is about seeing how far we can push ourselves and trying to always perform a bit better even if we're winning our events so yeah the risk is there.

-Dave'

 

[bgoetz]

Just curious, what defines clinical overtraining, I think I may be flirting with that? I am through the hardest part now hopefully, changing weather should bring respite and I start racing next weekend!

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by bgoetz .

Just curious, what defines clinical overtraining, I think I may be flirting with that?

I am through the hardest part now hopefully, changing weather should bring respite and I start racing next weekend!

You'd probably get a different answer from a doctor, but I'd say measurable negative changes in hormone levels and blood chemistry resulting from training such as seriously low testosterone or unusually elevated cortisol levels or dramatic changes in andrenal function or overall endocrine system (e.g. thyroxine, T3, T4, etc.) levels.

Hard to say whether that describes you or not, but WTF, didn't you just go down this path a month ago and figure out you needed to approach things in a more sustainable manner? I thought that was the whole point behind the unstructured reset. Did you jump right back in to huge weeks that included a lot of high end work as soon as you started feeling better? Not much good getting uber fit if you've totally trashed yourself and burned out when the actual races are happening.

But based on your test results posted in the other thread I don't see how you could possibly be chronically overtrained or clinically overtrained and be seeing things like record setting 5 minute power numbers in your testing. You don't set records while overtrained. Tired perhaps, even a bit over reached as in a big training load THAT PROCEEDS SOME EXTRA RECOVERY, quite possibly but if your in the kind of overtraining hole that will take weeks or months to bounce back from you won't be setting personal bests in your testing.

Good luck and hang in there but dude work to find some balance that's sustainable, it's a long season and you've got way too much talent to waste.

-Dave

 

[bgoetz]

Haha! Thank you for taking the gloves off and giving me some bluntness, typically that is what tends to work best. So feel free to not respond if you feel I am pushing boundaries with over using your free advice, but knowing my goal is a mid April through May peak and given that right now I am perfectly satisfied going into that peak with at least my FTP/weight were it seems to be. How should I proceed over the next couple weeks before my taper? I have races about every weekend and was going to try to do as much FTP/VO2 work between (focusing a bit more high end), but was going to focus on quality over quantity and try to go into my races feeling decent. The last weekend of March I am planning a pretty solid weekend again right before my taper. I really appreciate your advice Dave and do TRY to follow it, I just have a sickness

 

[bgoetz]

I guess maybe do a bit less next week, no more 2x a days and really work on quality? Focus on rebuilding race tactics the next couple weekends.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by bgoetz .

I guess maybe do a bit less next week, no more 2x a days and really work on quality? Focus on rebuilding race tactics the next couple weekends.

The good news is you have some very recent log files that should tell you what constitutes 'too much', try not to repeat what brought you to your earlier training setback or what you're seeing right now too often unless you know it will be followed by some extra recovery time.

The other big thing to think about is no one can do everything all the time so pick and choose the things that will give you the best return on your training investment. IOW, it's very difficult to build big training loads (i.e. CTL) while also targeting high end systems (e.g. L5, L6) and also targeting FTP with structured L4 work. That's asking a lot from a recovery standpoint. Throw racing into that mix and something has to give. Maybe it's the CTL goals which is why a lot of programs build volume before intensity and peak volumes are hit prior to the start of racing for folks on plans like that. Perhaps it's the high end work as racing starts as a lot of the L6 and often L5 work happens during racing so it may not make sense to train those systems on other days or it could be the focused L4 work for someone who's already very strong in that department and needs to focus on weaknesses.

No simple formulas, but look at your strengths and weaknesses relative to your target events and your competition. Think about how best to spend your training (and limited recovery) to your best advantage. Recognize that racing can hit certain systems very effectively so don't ignore the training value of races and how that might hit different systems and impact recovery for other hard training.

So maybe it's pulling back on the 2 a days, maybe it's focusing and not trying to hit so many systems each week or during a single ride. Maybe it's polarizing a bit more to have easy days and hard days, maybe something else but manage the overall load, manage recovery and recognize that fatigue is cumulative and your ability to recover as you've discovered is limited.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[gudujarlson]

I hit -73 TSB once and also went below -40 TSB 1/week during spring last year when I was following a 3-1 schedule where I would bury myself for 3 weeks and then get 4-5 days of total rest. Bgoetz. I know exactly what you mean about feeling great after a rest week. The rest weeks were really good at reminding me what feeling normal was like. Without them I think I could easily fall into a trap of thinking that fatigued is a normal state of things. During that period I managed a 11% gain in FTP, but it followed a winter of haphazard riding and a CTL of 20 so I may have just been gaining back what I lost over winter.

These days I have been following a plan where I don't take rest weeks but I also don't bury myself. Albeit last week when the weather was nice I dropped to a TSB of -56 and then took 2 days off while it snowed 6 inches. My CTL crossed 90 last week.

 

[JibberJim]

It's clear I'm pretty unusual, but I'm sure I can't be unique - I never feel good in a rest week at all... Although I do perform better without a very high -ve TSB as long as it's been high recently.

I don't think it's safe to say that everyone is driven to feel **** though. The ability to sustain high loads is almost certainly one of differentiators between those that make the top. And the limitation placed on the amount of intense training you can do in a day by glycogen demands I think can very likely limit the amount of how **** you can make yourself if you recover well and carry high training loads.

 

[mx416]

I've gone to -55 tsb 4 times in the last 3 years, usually during training camp

My TSB will be -45 tomorrow, if I'm at -10 or above my legs feel terrible, they feel much better with a negative tsb