Just Ride on power and not HR

[dazman]

Hi,

I've seen the replies to my previous posts when I discussed HR not working on PT along the lines of not needing it anyway.

If you really never used HR can someone outline how you would know the intensity of your workout over time? I guess you test the initial max threshold power and pro rata power for less intensity, but gauging subsequent improvement using retesting alot is not so precise is it?

Watts at different HR % over time seemed like a good plan to me… Can someone give me the 101 of power only training?

 

[meandmybike]

Hi,

I've seen the replies to my previous posts when I discussed HR not working on PT along the lines of not needing it anyway.

If you really never used HR can someone outline how you would know the intensity of your workout over time? I guess you test the initial max threshold power and pro rata power for less intensity, but guaging subsequent improvement using retesting is not so precise is it?

Watts at different HR % over time seemed like a good plan to me… Can someone give me the 101 of power only training?

http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Hi,

I've seen the replies to my previous posts when I discussed HR not working on PT along the lines of not needing it anyway.

If you really never used HR can someone outline how you would know the intensity of your workout over time? I guess you test the initial max threshold power and pro rata power for less intensity, but gauging subsequent improvement using retesting alot is not so precise is it?

Watts at different HR % over time seemed like a good plan to me… Can someone give me the 101 of power only training?

You find some variable that is some sort of maximal effort (at RST we use MAP and TT intensity; Andy C uses ~1-hr TT power = FTP). Then when you train you can look at maintaining some sort of % range of that figure.

Then after a period of X time you could retest your initial variable (e.g., FTP or MAP or both) and see how you've improved (or not). Of course, while you are training regularly you can see how the test variable is improving as you'll likely do something related to it in training.

Andy's schema is already shown, and the RST one is here http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=powerstern

ric

 

[sugaken]

Watts at different HR % over time seemed like a good plan to me…

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the above sentence seems to imply that you consider your HRmax constant/quasi-constant over time, but it's not uncommon at all for your HRmax to decrease as your fitness improves. So, when your fitness changes, you'd need to retest your HRmax just like with power anyways...

Ken

 

[frenchyge]

Watts at different HR % over time seemed like a good plan to me…

Watts are what make the bike go, so if you can produce more watts for a given duration (40k TT, 2hr road race, 1hr crit, etc.) then the bike goes faster and you are improving. HR % over time is redundant if you know watts over time.

 

[otb4evr]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the above sentence seems to imply that you consider your HRmax constant/quasi-constant over time, but it's not uncommon at all for your HRmax to decrease as your fitness improves. So, when your fitness changes, you'd need to retest your HRmax just like with power anyways...

Ken

I don't think this is a correct assumption.

I *think* max HR decreases as you age, but I don't think it decreases as your fitness increases.

I think it just gets harder to push yourself to your max HR, though...

Jim

 

[ric_stern/RST]

I don't think this is a correct assumption.

I *think* max HR decreases as you age, but I don't think it decreases as your fitness increases.

I think it just gets harder to push yourself to your max HR, though...

Jim

on average, it decreases as you age and as you get fitter.

ric

 

[otb4evr]

on average, it decreases as you age and as you get fitter.

ric

That's interesting...

This is just n=1 and not very scientific...

I know that when I started cycling and paying attention to my HR, I could only max it out at 185. I was in my late-20s.

Over the next several years, as I got fitter, I was able to push harder and therefore saw a higher heart rate. I actually saw as high as 206 several times.

I have seen low-200s several times over the last couple of years during very hard crits.

I am in my early-40s...

Jim

 

[Bullseye_blam]

on average, it decreases as you age and as you get fitter.

ric

I think this would be due to an increase in cardiac output in relation to the ability of your muscles to generate power.

For example, if your maximum heart rate is 200 before a period of intense training, and your maximum cardiac output increases 20% after training, and the power your muscles can generate [before fatiguing] only increases 10% after training, it would seem plausible to me that at your maximum intensity, you would still have more cardiac capacity, and thus would not achieve maximum heart rate at maximum intensity.

Someone tell me if I've made a mistake here.

-Eric

 

[bikeguy]

I think this would be due to an increase in cardiac output in relation to the ability of your muscles to generate power.

For example, if your maximum heart rate is 200 before a period of intense training, and your maximum cardiac output increases 20% after training, and the power your muscles can generate [before fatiguing] only increases 10% after training, it would seem plausible to me that at your maximum intensity, you would still have more cardiac capacity, and thus would not achieve maximum heart rate at maximum intensity.

Someone tell me if I've made a mistake here.

-Eric

In general, aerobic activities are limited by heart stroke volume and heart rate, and permeability of muscles to oxygen and of course blood oxygen carrying capacity. Heart stroke volume increases with training, and I think it usually takes a bit longer for a bigger heart to empty it's chambers, so this is where the HR drop comes in. However, in my case I have seen no drop in max HR from age 28 to 30, and in fact am now seeing an increase in max HR. I think this may be due to a previous illness and also due to motivation ability. I'm now more able to motivate myself to do a hard workout.

-bikeguy

 

[Piotr]

That's interesting...

This is just n=1 and not very scientific...

I know that when I started cycling and paying attention to my HR, I could only max it out at 185. I was in my late-20s.

Over the next several years, as I got fitter, I was able to push harder and therefore saw a higher heart rate. I actually saw as high as 206 several times.

I have seen low-200s several times over the last couple of years during very hard crits.

I am in my early-40s...

Jim

Perhaps a better way to phrase it would be that training makes it easier for us to reach our max. HR, but fatigue from regular training will make it drop somewhat.

When I trained consistently it was very difficult for me to reach 198 BPM. I believed that to be my max. HR based on a 2.5 min hard effort. Lo and behold, after a month off from any kind of training last year I sprinted to a top of a hill with some friends and my HR topped out at 203! I didn't feel it was that hard of an effort. My muscles still had it, but my cardio had apparently de-trained (or rested). That was last October and now I'm back to "normal".

 

[sugaken]

To those of you who observe increasing HRmax as you get fitter:
How did/do you test your HRmax? Is it possible that you observed/are observing HRpeak rather than HRmax? That is, did you see/are you seeing a plateau in HR at the end of the test? Lack of plateau indicates that the resultant "HRmax" may really be a HRpeak at the time rather than your true HRmax.

But finer points in determining one's HRmax aside, my original point still remains intact; your HRmax changes over time for whatever reason, so you'll have to retest your HRmax sooner or later if you base your training zones on your HRmax. It's no better than training with power in this regard.

Ken

 

[Alex Simmons]

Power has no upper boundary....

 

[otb4evr]

Power has no upper boundary....

That's pretty deep, Alex.

You are making my head hurt...

Jim

 

[Alex Simmons]

That's pretty deep, Alex.

You are making my head hurt...

Jim

Power also goes to zero....
Still hurting?

 

[otb4evr]

Power also goes to zero....
Still hurting?

yep...

g'nite...

 

[Paulie-AU]

If you haven't the heart, power means SFA.

 

[jetnjeff]

To those of you who observe increasing HRmax as you get fitter:
How did/do you test your HRmax? Is it possible that you observed/are observing HRpeak rather than HRmax? That is, did you see/are you seeing a plateau in HR at the end of the test? Lack of plateau indicates that the resultant "HRmax" may really be a HRpeak at the time rather than your true HRmax.

Ken

My HR max, peak probably, is higher after a hiatus form training. I am able to mantain my trained peak for a longer period of time although it is lower.

Increased efficiency or training fatigue, take your pick.

I rarely use a HR strap any more, except to get a FTP HR incase my PT has to go in for service.

Did I mention I love not having to were a HR strap any more?

 

[Alex Simmons]

Did I mention I love not having to were a HR strap any more?

No, but I'm right there with you on that one.

 

[dazman]

No, but I'm right there with you on that one.

While I wait for my new CPU, strap and reciever I've discovered the PT works on the trainer(but not outside), at around 65 rpm and no more than about 240 watts. Still it allows a reasonable low Hr hill climb sim for now. I'm starting to understand what you guys mean. One thing I think will be hard for me is riding with less deviance on my watts, whereas it's pretty easy to control your HR as it doesn't move so much.

Still I found myself more focused on the watts so probably all my previous posts about keeping the polar will go out of the window once I get this working properly!