Keep Watch at Those Stop Signs..



Philo wrote:
> Who can defend the cyclist who runs a stop sign and kills an old lady?

No one seems to be asking the obvious question: what was that old lady
doing out in the middle of a street? Everyone knows old people have
inferior reflexes, and are not made to withstand the shock of being
bowled over at 22 mph. This makes them unfit to cross streets, in my
opinion. At least the old girl had a good run, making it to 71 before
her deteriorating judgement caught up with her.

-Smurf
 
=v= This is so anomalous that it's national news. No doubt
we'll be hearing this incident used as an examplar of "those
horrible dangerous scofflaw cyclists" for years.

=v= Meanwhile, 120/day are killed by cars, and the vast
majority of the motorists are *not* charged with criminal
negligence, manslaughter, or anything. But that's so very
common that it's not even "news."
<_Jym_>
 
I have to laugh. Locally, we had a mexican gardener who was driving
down a 50 mph, 4-lane divided road with an ample bike lane, at about
1PM on a weekday. He ran directly into the back of a 60 year-old
cyclist who was riding in the bike lane, killing him instantly. The
cyclist was an experienced rider, a retiree. Our designer was driving
about 1/8th mile behind the gardener when this happened, she said it
was utterly inexplicable as to why he ran into the cyclist. Tests
showed no evidence of drugs or alcohol, and the driver offered police
no explanation at all as to how the accident happened.

The case went to court. Judgement? Failure to yield right-of-way. No
charge of involuntary manslaughter. No loss of license.

Justice is not even-handed when it comes to incidents involving
bicycles.

CP
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
>
>Philo wrote:
>> Who can defend the cyclist who runs a stop sign and kills an old lady?
>
>No one seems to be asking the obvious question: what was that old lady
>doing out in the middle of a street? Everyone knows old people have
>inferior reflexes, and are not made to withstand the shock of being
>bowled over at 22 mph. This makes them unfit to cross streets, in my
>opinion. At least the old girl had a good run, making it to 71 before
>her deteriorating judgement caught up with her.

Not enough details posted. You shouldn't jump to put guilt on either party.
----------------
Alex
 
[email protected] wrote:
> I have to laugh. Locally, we had a mexican gardener who was driving
> down a 50 mph, 4-lane divided road with an ample bike lane, at about
> 1PM on a weekday. He ran directly into the back of a 60 year-old
> cyclist who was riding in the bike lane, killing him instantly. The
> cyclist was an experienced rider, a retiree. Our designer was driving
> about 1/8th mile behind the gardener when this happened, she said it
> was utterly inexplicable as to why he ran into the cyclist. Tests
> showed no evidence of drugs or alcohol, and the driver offered police
> no explanation at all as to how the accident happened.
>
> The case went to court. Judgement? Failure to yield right-of-way. No
> charge of involuntary manslaughter. No loss of license.
>
> Justice is not even-handed when it comes to incidents involving
> bicycles.
>
> CP

We had a young man of Tibetan origin run down and killed on his way to
work one morning. The road has a 35 mph posting. No charges were
filed. The driver said she "didn't see him." This happened in a small
town in New England. I commute by bike on the same road. I used to
see this young man riding, on the same route that I ride on.

His only mistake in my opinion: staying too far to the right. He was
always right at the curb. He was struck at a relatively narrow spot in
the road, with no curb, grass to the road, and a big oak tree. I saw
the scene only a few minutes after it happened. It looked as if he was
sideswiped, lost control and hit either the tree or the ground on the
upslope.

Contrary to common sense, I make a point of riding conspicuously in the
road. They cannot claim to not see you, if you are in the middle of
the road. They also cannot attempt to pass you with oncoming traffic,
if you take the whole lane.

Drivers are lazy. They have a very difficult time using their brakes
merely for the purpose of keeping a bicyclist safe. But if you get
physically in their way, they will slow down. It is odd--if they see a
potential to squeeze you, they will. But they usually will not run you
down directly, the previous example quoted above excepted.
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have to laugh. Locally, we had a mexican gardener who was driving
> down a 50 mph, 4-lane divided road with an ample bike lane, at about
> 1PM on a weekday. He ran directly into the back of a 60 year-old
> cyclist who was riding in the bike lane, killing him instantly. The
> cyclist was an experienced rider, a retiree. Our designer was driving
> about 1/8th mile behind the gardener when this happened, she said it
> was utterly inexplicable as to why he ran into the cyclist. Tests
> showed no evidence of drugs or alcohol, and the driver offered police
> no explanation at all as to how the accident happened.
>
> The case went to court. Judgement? Failure to yield right-of-way. No
> charge of involuntary manslaughter. No loss of license.
>
> Justice is not even-handed when it comes to incidents involving
> bicycles.

Well yeah, _especially_ with mexican drivers. They're the worst. What does
his freaking race have to do with anything? Now go rent Crash and search
your soul.
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/crash/

JF
 
Jim Flom wrote:

>
> Well yeah, _especially_ with mexican drivers. They're the worst. What does
> his freaking race have to do with anything? Now go rent Crash and search
> your soul.
> http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/crash/
>
> JF


4/4 "Discomfiting is the only way to describe this smart, edgy drama
rubbed raw by its own narrative anger."
-- Jeanne Aufmuth, PALO ALTO WEEKLY

I hate edgy.

Steve
>
>


--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
 
Jim Flom wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >I have to laugh. Locally, we had a mexican gardener who was driving
> > down a 50 mph, 4-lane divided road with an ample bike lane, at about
> > 1PM on a weekday. He ran directly into the back of a 60 year-old
> > cyclist who was riding in the bike lane, killing him instantly. The
> > cyclist was an experienced rider, a retiree. Our designer was driving
> > about 1/8th mile behind the gardener when this happened, she said it
> > was utterly inexplicable as to why he ran into the cyclist. Tests
> > showed no evidence of drugs or alcohol, and the driver offered police
> > no explanation at all as to how the accident happened.
> >
> > The case went to court. Judgement? Failure to yield right-of-way. No
> > charge of involuntary manslaughter. No loss of license.
> >
> > Justice is not even-handed when it comes to incidents involving
> > bicycles.
>
> Well yeah, _especially_ with mexican drivers. They're the worst. What does
> his freaking race have to do with anything? Now go rent Crash and search
> your soul.
> http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/crash/
>
> JF

What a contrived, sermonizing load of horseshit that movie was. But
you're right, noting someone's ethnicity clearly constitutes racism.

-Smurf
 
Jim Flom wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...

<snip>

> Well yeah, _especially_ with mexican drivers. They're the worst. What does
> his freaking race have to do with anything? Now go rent Crash and search
> your soul.
> http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/crash/
>
> JF

For this group, I think this crash is more appropriate:

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1076271-crash/


"To say this movie is sick is too facile. Let's just say it's
perverse. Crash is a grotesque film filled with vacuous characters and
a destitute theme."
-- John J. Puccio, DVDTOWN.COM

John McCaskill
 
"Mark & Steven Bornfeld" <[email protected]> wrote ...
>
> 4/4 "Discomfiting is the only way to describe this smart, edgy drama
> rubbed raw by its own narrative anger."
> -- Jeanne Aufmuth, PALO ALTO WEEKLY
>
> I hate edgy.

And that was one of the positive ones!
 
In article <D6HVe.12273$ck6.9711@trndny05>,
Mark & Steven Bornfeld <[email protected]> wrote:

> Jim Flom wrote:
>
> >
> > Well yeah, _especially_ with mexican drivers. They're the worst. What
> > does
> > his freaking race have to do with anything? Now go rent Crash and search
> > your soul.
> > http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/crash/
> >
> > JF
>
>
> 4/4 "Discomfiting is the only way to describe this smart, edgy drama
> rubbed raw by its own narrative anger."
> -- Jeanne Aufmuth, PALO ALTO WEEKLY

The PA Weekly isn't exactly a top quality paper, Steve. A few years ago, an
older woman (she may have been in her 70s, I don't recall) stepped in front of
one of the local commuter trains. They ran that on the front page, with most of
the upper half of the page taken up with a headline reading "She had no next of
kin." Oh my...

--
tanx,
Howard

Butter is love.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
> Unfortunately there seems to be a huge double standard in most places.
> I'd be very happy to be wrong, but even here we've had some
> interesting experiences with the local PDs.
> Bill C

Double standard or not, if the accident was in fact caused by a cyclist
blowing through an intersection and nailing a pedestrian in a crosswalk, I
don't think it's the sort of case that we ought to get behind as proof of
the injustices the cyclist endures in daily life.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> [email protected] wrote:
>> This looks like a case for Bob Mionske.
>>
>> I don't really get it...Cars kill people every day by running stop
>> signs or red lights (and don't get charged with Manslaughter).
> Your on the same track that I am I think. If I was involved with one
> of the cycling advocacy groups out there, I'd be digging hard to see
> what the PD's response to cyclists hit and injured/killed by cars and
> what charges were briught forward. None of this would be any good in
> court, but you sure could make the PD answer some questions, if as I
> suspect, the PD there has failed to press, or pressed minimum charges
> when the cyclists were the victims.
> Unfortunately there seems to be a huge double standard in most places.
> I'd be very happy to be wrong, but even here we've had some
> interesting experiences with the local PDs.
> Bill C
>
 
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> > Unfortunately there seems to be a huge double standard in most places.
> > I'd be very happy to be wrong, but even here we've had some
> > interesting experiences with the local PDs.
> > Bill C
>
> Double standard or not, if the accident was in fact caused by a cyclist
> blowing through an intersection and nailing a pedestrian in a crosswalk, I
> don't think it's the sort of case that we ought to get behind as proof of
> the injustices the cyclist endures in daily life.
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
>
> "Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > [email protected] wrote:
> >> This looks like a case for Bob Mionske.
> >>
> >> I don't really get it...Cars kill people every day by running stop
> >> signs or red lights (and don't get charged with Manslaughter).
> > Your on the same track that I am I think. If I was involved with one
> > of the cycling advocacy groups out there, I'd be digging hard to see
> > what the PD's response to cyclists hit and injured/killed by cars and
> > what charges were briught forward. None of this would be any good in
> > court, but you sure could make the PD answer some questions, if as I
> > suspect, the PD there has failed to press, or pressed minimum charges
> > when the cyclists were the victims.
> > Unfortunately there seems to be a huge double standard in most places.
> > I'd be very happy to be wrong, but even here we've had some
> > interesting experiences with the local PDs.
> > Bill C

I agree with you completely, I'm not one of those people who are
willing to excuse the behavior because the person was on a bike. I'd
love to see the smaller stupidity such as running red lights and stuff
enforced the same as it is for cars, but that doesn't seem to happen
much either.
The laws are there, and are generally pretty clear. I'd just like to
see them enforced equally across the board. That would make it safer
for all of us out there.
Bill C
 
Jim Flom wrote:

> Well yeah, _especially_ with mexican drivers. They're the worst.

I noted his occupation, too, but that didn't get your P.C. hackles up.
You need to be more consistantly indignant.

CP
 
> I agree with you completely, I'm not one of those people who are
> willing to excuse the behavior because the person was on a bike. I'd
> love to see the smaller stupidity such as running red lights and stuff
> enforced the same as it is for cars, but that doesn't seem to happen
> much either.
> The laws are there, and are generally pretty clear. I'd just like to
> see them enforced equally across the board. That would make it safer
> for all of us out there.
> Bill C

Ultimately the road laws exist for one simple reason- to encourage
predictable behavior. That's what saves our skins when we're out on the
road. Now, I suppose one could claim that cyclists blowing through stop
signs is so "predictable" that it constitutes expected behavior and thus can
be safely done? If so, then the laws should be changed to accommodate that
(which I find highly unlikely).

I rode with my son to his school this morning, and for the most part, the
cars weren't too bad. Pretty heavy traffic and people generally looking
where they were going, stopping where they should be stopping. On my way
back home it was a different matter entirely. Where the traffic was light,
cars coming up to stop signs where they'd be making a right-hand turn were
using them as "yield" signs, slowing down a bit but most certainly not
stopping. Scary stuff, when cars are learning behavior from cyclists. On a
bike, yes, I'll stop for a stop sign when I'm proceeding across the
intersection, but if it's clear and I'm making a right-hand turn, I'll slow
down but not likely make an effort to stop. So where does that put me?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> > Unfortunately there seems to be a huge double standard in most places.
>> > I'd be very happy to be wrong, but even here we've had some
>> > interesting experiences with the local PDs.
>> > Bill C
>>
>> Double standard or not, if the accident was in fact caused by a cyclist
>> blowing through an intersection and nailing a pedestrian in a crosswalk,
>> I
>> don't think it's the sort of case that we ought to get behind as proof of
>> the injustices the cyclist endures in daily life.
>>
>> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
>> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>>
>>
>> "Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> >
>> > [email protected] wrote:
>> >> This looks like a case for Bob Mionske.
>> >>
>> >> I don't really get it...Cars kill people every day by running stop
>> >> signs or red lights (and don't get charged with Manslaughter).
>> > Your on the same track that I am I think. If I was involved with one
>> > of the cycling advocacy groups out there, I'd be digging hard to see
>> > what the PD's response to cyclists hit and injured/killed by cars and
>> > what charges were briught forward. None of this would be any good in
>> > court, but you sure could make the PD answer some questions, if as I
>> > suspect, the PD there has failed to press, or pressed minimum charges
>> > when the cyclists were the victims.
>> > Unfortunately there seems to be a huge double standard in most places.
>> > I'd be very happy to be wrong, but even here we've had some
>> > interesting experiences with the local PDs.
>> > Bill C
>
> I agree with you completely, I'm not one of those people who are
> willing to excuse the behavior because the person was on a bike. I'd
> love to see the smaller stupidity such as running red lights and stuff
> enforced the same as it is for cars, but that doesn't seem to happen
> much either.
> The laws are there, and are generally pretty clear. I'd just like to
> see them enforced equally across the board. That would make it safer
> for all of us out there.
> Bill C
>
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Jim Flom wrote:
>
>> Well yeah, _especially_ with mexican drivers. They're the worst.
>
> I noted his occupation, too, but that didn't get your P.C. hackles up.
> You need to be more consistantly indignant.

When I planned my original response, I was also (mis-)reading bill's post,
thinking the Tibetan was the one killing rather than the one killed. I was
going to say something to both of you but then I realized you were the only
one to make a gratuitous reference to ethnicity in a negative context. If I
am going to be consistently indignant, I should chastise people whether they
cite ethnicity negatively or positively.

Thank you very much.

JF, Chairman
The Rainbow Coalition
 
Jim Flom wrote:
> If I
> am going to be consistently indignant, I should chastise people whether they
> cite ethnicity negatively or positively.

Yup, that's the ticket. Make sure to continue your habit of ignoring
the content of postings, while fixating on P.C. details, that'll help
divert the discussion from the topic at hand. You're a role model for
r.b.r., thanks!

CP
 
> So where does that put me?

Right where most of us are. Breaking the law. But the harm is
different in that you *generally* won't hurt or kill to the same extent
that motor vehicles hurt and kill.

If you use due caution, do not create a hazard, and don't screw up, I
don't care if you follow the letter of the law or not (car or bike).
But when you are in conflict with another use, you need to follow
strict rules.

Take that right hand turn if nobody else has the right-of-way and don't
worry too much about it. Pay your ticket if you get busted without
complaint. And if you hurt someone, be prepared to pay a very stiff
price.
 
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