Kennedy CycleFit
- Thread starter nitrous
- Start date
I don't think it's an appropriate use of this sort of forum (old timer alert). I remember the good old days before Canter & Siegel and when email wasn't 95% junkmail, and posting ads to USENET got your account taken away531Aussie said:
That said, since you asked it's therefore ok to reply; I'm in Melbourne, and my (very small) coaching business is aboc Cycle Coaching, www.aboc.com.au
From what I've heard it's $180 plus the manditory parts (usually $70) to complete the fit, which equals $250.
Cheers,
Ian
Cheers,
Ian
I found Kennedy's cyclefit a complete rip off!. He's a good talker and a great businessman because I left $900 poorer and a much worse cyclist.nitrous said:Yep - went down for a look. $250 for the fit puts it out of my "preventative" budget but will certainly reconsider it if I have any problems/pain. So far, I've had 200 pain free km's on the new bike so I'll wait a little longer to see if it's immediately necessary.
Thanks for your replies.
$900...... What did he do, replace almost the whole frame or something.
You could buy a heap of bits and keep swapping them around until you found something you were happy with.
I saw him in action at last year's GVBR. He was telling the assembled crowd that about 99% of the cyclists on the road were set up wrong and that his $250 cyclefit could fix them. My brother and i walked away very quickly as we have never had a fit and were both very comforatble on our bikes. Which left about 78 others who didn't have a fit problem out of the 8000 odd riders.
What did he do, replace almost the whole frame or something.You could buy a heap of bits and keep swapping them around until you found something you were happy with.
I saw him in action at last year's GVBR. He was telling the assembled crowd that about 99% of the cyclists on the road were set up wrong and that his $250 cyclefit could fix them. My brother and i walked away very quickly as we have never had a fit and were both very comforatble on our bikes. Which left about 78 others who didn't have a fit problem out of the 8000 odd riders.
John has fitted many thousands of cyclists here in Oz and from O/Seas, many amateurs, and professionals, some very well known, household names in the world of elite cycling. But his bread and butter is YOU, and YOU, or I, would be hard pressed to find any riders, as clients of John or Steve who were not more comfortable after a Cyclefit "fit", and who were clearly now able to perform better on their bikes. I dare say the poster who claims being un-happy was more smarting at the cost than the real benefit from the fit, probably because of a hack bike anyway that was all wrong, and the $900 was a sensible necessity that could have been saved with a better considered purchase in the first place!
If you spent $900 at John's you would be stupid in the least not to go back and tell him you later figured you weren't happy...he'd stay with you till you were...that is what he does, so take that "claim" of one bleating heart with a grain of salt. If you had a hassle and wanted to bag him , he'd want to know, so go back whoever you are and get "fixed".
Some may be lucky enough to flook a fit on a bike purchase, like buying clothes off the rack...but most of us cant do that, not only our physiology, but our aims, aspirations, application and thought process all come under stress when we ride seriously and for a longer ride, more than 70 klms, then you know if you are comfortable or not, and if your performance and abilities suffer on the ride and linger in pain afterwards, then you know you have a problem.....then you need a proper detailed assessment or it will cost you heaps more in therapy and medical bills than a preventive Cyclefit from John Kennedy. So if anyone of those things are out of whack, it immediately comes apparent in pain, discomfort and a very unpleasant experience.....its not just what you can do with what you've got, its how you do it, why you do it and how often and for how long, that really matters....simply, a piece of string, a stick and a ruler wont do it for most...so if you want the cheap fix, you will get what you pay for....if you want a thoroughly considered logical and effective fit that goes beyond mere string drops, culminating in long term riding enjoyment, save your pennies up and then go see John.
........
If you spent $900 at John's you would be stupid in the least not to go back and tell him you later figured you weren't happy...he'd stay with you till you were...that is what he does, so take that "claim" of one bleating heart with a grain of salt. If you had a hassle and wanted to bag him , he'd want to know, so go back whoever you are and get "fixed".
Some may be lucky enough to flook a fit on a bike purchase, like buying clothes off the rack...but most of us cant do that, not only our physiology, but our aims, aspirations, application and thought process all come under stress when we ride seriously and for a longer ride, more than 70 klms, then you know if you are comfortable or not, and if your performance and abilities suffer on the ride and linger in pain afterwards, then you know you have a problem.....then you need a proper detailed assessment or it will cost you heaps more in therapy and medical bills than a preventive Cyclefit from John Kennedy. So if anyone of those things are out of whack, it immediately comes apparent in pain, discomfort and a very unpleasant experience.....its not just what you can do with what you've got, its how you do it, why you do it and how often and for how long, that really matters....simply, a piece of string, a stick and a ruler wont do it for most...so if you want the cheap fix, you will get what you pay for....if you want a thoroughly considered logical and effective fit that goes beyond mere string drops, culminating in long term riding enjoyment, save your pennies up and then go see John.
........
smartie said:$900......
You could buy a heap of bits and keep swapping them around until you found something you were happy with.
I saw him in action at last year's GVBR. He was telling the assembled crowd that about 99% of the cyclists on the road were set up wrong and that his $250 cyclefit could fix them. My brother and i walked away very quickly as we have never had a fit and were both very comforatble on our bikes. Which left about 78 others who didn't have a fit problem out of the 8000 odd riders.
Well, it's been a few months now since my original post and I'm happy to say that I'm VERY comfortable on the bike and am really glad I didn't drop $250 on a cycle fit. I'm sure John has done some good things for many people but I found that by riding a lot and by riding with experienced cyclists I was able to talk to them about my position, any pain I had and what i felt wasn't right. They made some suggestions and then I made some adjustments over a period of time so I am now in a really comfortable position, riding about 200km per week without pain and loving it.
Rooman,
I know John has fitted thousands of cyclists both amateur and professional, here and overseas. That is exactly what he told me. I cannot speak for them anymore than you can speak for me. The original poster was asking for opinions and I gave mine - nothing more, nothing less. I do not recall the original poster asking for positive comments only. So please do not assume I am "stupid" or have a "hack" bike or that I am a "bleating heart".
As it happens my experience with Kennedy's was a while ago now and I had forgoten about it until I saw this thread. I do not live in Melbourne so it was not convenient for me to simply drop back into Kennedy's. I did express my concerns over the phone to him on three occasions after the fit and his standard reply was "Give it time, you'll get used to it". He did not return my fourth and final call.
Let me give one example of where I think I was let down. John convinced me I needed a new saddle even though my old saddle had served me well for two years and I had no complaints. Apparently my old saddle was too much of a "ladies" saddle - too wide and not long enough. So he sold me a $250 saddle which was so uncomfortable I was painfully numb after each ride. But he kept telling me I would get used to it. After two months and about 1200km I gave up and went back to my original saddle. I ask you is that the right way to buy a saddle? To have a salesman tell you "Here, this is the saddle you need"? Incidentally the saddle he sold me was cheaper in every other bike store.
Two of John's objectives with me were to make me a better climber and to get me down in the drops more often and with more comfort. So he pushed my new saddle, together with the new carbon seatpost he sold me, way back over the rear wheel. Of course this helps in climbing. Isn't that why we are told to sit back in the saddle when climbing? But this doesn't mean you should be permanently back there. I understand he does this a lot. But it makes the bike horribly unstable at speed especially when descending.
His solution to get me down in the drops was to crank up the head stem with a bizarre combination of extensions. And yes it was now easier to get into the drops because the drops were not as low! But what about the rest of the time? I was so upright I was a parachute and the next time I rode into a head wind it was a disaster.
BTW I am not griping about the $900. Luckily I can afford it and I have well and truly shrugged it off and put it down to a life experience. I wish I knew then what I know now about bike setup. I now have a new, extremely comfortable bike anyway and the LBS staff were very expert at setting me up correctly - it was no "fluke".
I have no doubt that John Kennedy's Cyclefit has helped lots of people but it is naive to think it will help everyone. So, Rooman, please do not shoot the messenger.
Cipo
I know John has fitted thousands of cyclists both amateur and professional, here and overseas. That is exactly what he told me. I cannot speak for them anymore than you can speak for me. The original poster was asking for opinions and I gave mine - nothing more, nothing less. I do not recall the original poster asking for positive comments only. So please do not assume I am "stupid" or have a "hack" bike or that I am a "bleating heart".
As it happens my experience with Kennedy's was a while ago now and I had forgoten about it until I saw this thread. I do not live in Melbourne so it was not convenient for me to simply drop back into Kennedy's. I did express my concerns over the phone to him on three occasions after the fit and his standard reply was "Give it time, you'll get used to it". He did not return my fourth and final call.
Let me give one example of where I think I was let down. John convinced me I needed a new saddle even though my old saddle had served me well for two years and I had no complaints. Apparently my old saddle was too much of a "ladies" saddle - too wide and not long enough. So he sold me a $250 saddle which was so uncomfortable I was painfully numb after each ride. But he kept telling me I would get used to it. After two months and about 1200km I gave up and went back to my original saddle. I ask you is that the right way to buy a saddle? To have a salesman tell you "Here, this is the saddle you need"? Incidentally the saddle he sold me was cheaper in every other bike store.
Two of John's objectives with me were to make me a better climber and to get me down in the drops more often and with more comfort. So he pushed my new saddle, together with the new carbon seatpost he sold me, way back over the rear wheel. Of course this helps in climbing. Isn't that why we are told to sit back in the saddle when climbing? But this doesn't mean you should be permanently back there. I understand he does this a lot. But it makes the bike horribly unstable at speed especially when descending.
His solution to get me down in the drops was to crank up the head stem with a bizarre combination of extensions. And yes it was now easier to get into the drops because the drops were not as low! But what about the rest of the time? I was so upright I was a parachute and the next time I rode into a head wind it was a disaster.
BTW I am not griping about the $900. Luckily I can afford it and I have well and truly shrugged it off and put it down to a life experience. I wish I knew then what I know now about bike setup. I now have a new, extremely comfortable bike anyway and the LBS staff were very expert at setting me up correctly - it was no "fluke".
I have no doubt that John Kennedy's Cyclefit has helped lots of people but it is naive to think it will help everyone. So, Rooman, please do not shoot the messenger.
Cipo
rooman said:John has fitted many thousands of cyclists here in Oz and from O/Seas, many amateurs, and professionals, some very well known, household names in the world of elite cycling. But his bread and butter is YOU, and YOU, or I, would be hard pressed to find any riders, as clients of John or Steve who were not more comfortable after a Cyclefit "fit", and who were clearly now able to perform better on their bikes. I dare say the poster who claims being un-happy was more smarting at the cost than the real benefit from the fit, probably because of a hack bike anyway that was all wrong, and the $900 was a sensible necessity that could have been saved with a better considered purchase in the first place!
If you spent $900 at John's you would be stupid in the least not to go back and tell him you later figured you weren't happy...he'd stay with you till you were...that is what he does, so take that "claim" of one bleating heart with a grain of salt. If you had a hassle and wanted to bag him , he'd want to know, so go back whoever you are and get "fixed".
Some may be lucky enough to flook a fit on a bike purchase, like buying clothes off the rack...but most of us cant do that, not only our physiology, but our aims, aspirations, application and thought process all come under stress when we ride seriously and for a longer ride, more than 70 klms, then you know if you are comfortable or not, and if your performance and abilities suffer on the ride and linger in pain afterwards, then you know you have a problem.....then you need a proper detailed assessment or it will cost you heaps more in therapy and medical bills than a preventive Cyclefit from John Kennedy. So if anyone of those things are out of whack, it immediately comes apparent in pain, discomfort and a very unpleasant experience.....its not just what you can do with what you've got, its how you do it, why you do it and how often and for how long, that really matters....simply, a piece of string, a stick and a ruler wont do it for most...so if you want the cheap fix, you will get what you pay for....if you want a thoroughly considered logical and effective fit that goes beyond mere string drops, culminating in long term riding enjoyment, save your pennies up and then go see John.
........
And its over a period of time that you come to know what is comfortable for you and what you are trying to achieve for yourself. Its the original set up that many can't get right from a quick fix, and not doing it right just exacerbates inherent problems.
Even John's clients need adjustments , as they get fitter, or fatter, or whatever, the changes to their fit needs are dynamic, nothing is permanent, and John is always happy to do that adjustment with you and for you , and usually gratis.
He is a through life support person, that is what his clients seek and that is what they get.
Good luck with your riding Nitrous, 200 a week is great, 200 in one hit-out is when the pain really comes to the fore and then, maybe, you just might want to spend a few more bucks to get a "fit", as its the long distance rides that really do find your spots of pain, just when you thought you had it right !
Ride hard, ride safe, but ride !
PS: And do the ride on Saturday May 7, to Support Melbourne Wheels for Justice, from Fed Square to Parliament House starts 9-30am. ( see the threads and posts in this forum) .
The "injustice" in sentencing in the McGee case is the injustice to Ian Humphries's memory and the real pain in cycling, everything else is a winner as long as we can ride safely and live to ride to enjoy...cheers
Even John's clients need adjustments , as they get fitter, or fatter, or whatever, the changes to their fit needs are dynamic, nothing is permanent, and John is always happy to do that adjustment with you and for you , and usually gratis.
He is a through life support person, that is what his clients seek and that is what they get.
Good luck with your riding Nitrous, 200 a week is great, 200 in one hit-out is when the pain really comes to the fore and then, maybe, you just might want to spend a few more bucks to get a "fit", as its the long distance rides that really do find your spots of pain, just when you thought you had it right !
Ride hard, ride safe, but ride !
PS: And do the ride on Saturday May 7, to Support Melbourne Wheels for Justice, from Fed Square to Parliament House starts 9-30am. ( see the threads and posts in this forum) .
The "injustice" in sentencing in the McGee case is the injustice to Ian Humphries's memory and the real pain in cycling, everything else is a winner as long as we can ride safely and live to ride to enjoy...cheers
Hi Cipo,
sounds like you had an interesting experience, one that I can relate to, I had a "hack frame" read "a frame of dimensions and geometry that didnt suit the aspirations or physiology of the rider."
I was a newby, I bought a high end Italian steel bike from a reputable bike shop for $3000, its was all set to go and according to them "perfect for me", well it gave me the downhill shimmies something awfull, I went back , they suggested I change the original steel fork for a carbon one, that would "dampen the resonance" they said.... so out I go, hit the hard Kilometers, first hint of a down hill a cross wind or some bumpy road at speed and whoa, I was nearly off, every time....I had spent over $400 on the fork, fitting it and the "drop string set-up" they offered for $50 extra.
Made no difference, I was aching in the hands, my feet were burning, my knees ached and stabbed me back, had trouble breathing/tight chest, my perineum had developed a numbness whilst riding I figured was now a long term injury and my back was a pain arena from sit bones to neck...., they too said , "ride more you'll get used to it!", not "well the frame is a bit small for you and the seat could be longer, and the cranks longer, the stem higher, the bars wider, all of the above"...nadda, just bye, have fun! and smiled at me.....
So I ventured around looking for a solution, and by accident walked into Kennedy's.
The first thing he asked was "what do you want from your riding?".
I said, "I am not that young any more, Ive been an athlete, but not seriously a rider, now I need low impact, high aerobic excercise , I want to lose weight, get fitter, get out, do bunch rides and go from there, maybe down the way, some competitive rides", OK, we made the apppointment and I arrived with my road bike, shoes, and $180 for the fit ( at that time).
You know the fit drill, so during that we had suggestions of:
" for you to use the bike you have, .... and, until you develop more riding strength, stamina and skill to be rid of the symptoms you have,..... your position requires changes to your set up now........ and again in two to three months when you're fitter, & more used to riding........ and adjustments will be necessary until you settle into the style of riding that will come from your mind/body/bike interaction......." noting that my fit will be different for Road, as opposed to Track, as opposed to Racing in short crits & TTs etc....
OK as for cost and components, we had choices of light (read carbon & $$s) or utility ( read alloy and $$Ss but less) I went for utitlity ( mainly FSA or generic bits) and ended up with a wider bar, raised and longer stem, longer seat post, longer seat.
I was just plain too big for the bike I had bought, I was not prepared to shell out for a new one and said I'd stick with that frame & transmission, and (thought to myself I would probably get a custom later on)...but for now, I wanted to make do with what I had, smarting that I had already unwisely thrown $3000+ at a bike that didnt suit me. ( Sound familiar?).
So I paid my fit fee, bought the parts, John & a mechanic both fitted them and my riding became heaven, from the first ride.
I was more open and could breathe better, somewhat more upright, so my hands and butt bore my ample weight more evenly and my back had less strain, I could see more of the road ahead in this natural position and hence no more neck pain, and my sit bones actually sat in the saddle on the right place and goodbye pain down there....( but if I sat forward it came back when I moved off my sit bones, stands to figure, the sit bones are the place to bear your weight not the perineum, and we have to teach the body to sit properly..that took time ( hence John's statement to you and to me- give it time". I lost the down hill shimmy largely, but it is still there on that bike a touch as the frame is too small , that I cant change, and it is a steel bike which allows the shimmy resonance to develop, easier than alloy or carbon. I just touch my knees to the top bar in descent and that dampens the vibration, and I move forward and lower to the top bar. Down hill stability is now there, but I have to work for it.
So, with perserverence and some dedication and willingness to accept advice I am happy to say my Kennedy experience has re-invigorated my life on the bike. I've made adjustments with John since then and at no charge, (I am sure I do buy a lot of coffee at his in-store café tho!)
I am glad your new bike from the LBS (local bike shop?) suits you better and you too are a happier rider from the experiences
I now have a track bike, (fitted by John) a ride to the shops-Hybrid, fitted..etc and am activley training for Masters events later this year, I am doing 1000+ klms a month on the road, 10 hours on the track, not a skerrick of pain, discomfort or ache, other than my heart rate from the interval work outs, I am enjoying my riding more than ever and looking forward to a healthy, comfortable,...well maybe competitively uncomfortable, but riding without pain from the riding itself...the rest is up to me.
I try not to shoot messengers, just like to get to the bottom of their message and see what the real problem is, seems we have done that ! Good luck and ride safe!
cheers Roo
sounds like you had an interesting experience, one that I can relate to, I had a "hack frame" read "a frame of dimensions and geometry that didnt suit the aspirations or physiology of the rider."
I was a newby, I bought a high end Italian steel bike from a reputable bike shop for $3000, its was all set to go and according to them "perfect for me", well it gave me the downhill shimmies something awfull, I went back , they suggested I change the original steel fork for a carbon one, that would "dampen the resonance" they said.... so out I go, hit the hard Kilometers, first hint of a down hill a cross wind or some bumpy road at speed and whoa, I was nearly off, every time....I had spent over $400 on the fork, fitting it and the "drop string set-up" they offered for $50 extra.
Made no difference, I was aching in the hands, my feet were burning, my knees ached and stabbed me back, had trouble breathing/tight chest, my perineum had developed a numbness whilst riding I figured was now a long term injury and my back was a pain arena from sit bones to neck...., they too said , "ride more you'll get used to it!", not "well the frame is a bit small for you and the seat could be longer, and the cranks longer, the stem higher, the bars wider, all of the above"...nadda, just bye, have fun! and smiled at me.....
So I ventured around looking for a solution, and by accident walked into Kennedy's.
The first thing he asked was "what do you want from your riding?".
I said, "I am not that young any more, Ive been an athlete, but not seriously a rider, now I need low impact, high aerobic excercise , I want to lose weight, get fitter, get out, do bunch rides and go from there, maybe down the way, some competitive rides", OK, we made the apppointment and I arrived with my road bike, shoes, and $180 for the fit ( at that time).
You know the fit drill, so during that we had suggestions of:
" for you to use the bike you have, .... and, until you develop more riding strength, stamina and skill to be rid of the symptoms you have,..... your position requires changes to your set up now........ and again in two to three months when you're fitter, & more used to riding........ and adjustments will be necessary until you settle into the style of riding that will come from your mind/body/bike interaction......." noting that my fit will be different for Road, as opposed to Track, as opposed to Racing in short crits & TTs etc....
OK as for cost and components, we had choices of light (read carbon & $$s) or utility ( read alloy and $$Ss but less) I went for utitlity ( mainly FSA or generic bits) and ended up with a wider bar, raised and longer stem, longer seat post, longer seat.
I was just plain too big for the bike I had bought, I was not prepared to shell out for a new one and said I'd stick with that frame & transmission, and (thought to myself I would probably get a custom later on)...but for now, I wanted to make do with what I had, smarting that I had already unwisely thrown $3000+ at a bike that didnt suit me. ( Sound familiar?).
So I paid my fit fee, bought the parts, John & a mechanic both fitted them and my riding became heaven, from the first ride.
I was more open and could breathe better, somewhat more upright, so my hands and butt bore my ample weight more evenly and my back had less strain, I could see more of the road ahead in this natural position and hence no more neck pain, and my sit bones actually sat in the saddle on the right place and goodbye pain down there....( but if I sat forward it came back when I moved off my sit bones, stands to figure, the sit bones are the place to bear your weight not the perineum, and we have to teach the body to sit properly..that took time ( hence John's statement to you and to me- give it time". I lost the down hill shimmy largely, but it is still there on that bike a touch as the frame is too small , that I cant change, and it is a steel bike which allows the shimmy resonance to develop, easier than alloy or carbon. I just touch my knees to the top bar in descent and that dampens the vibration, and I move forward and lower to the top bar. Down hill stability is now there, but I have to work for it.
So, with perserverence and some dedication and willingness to accept advice I am happy to say my Kennedy experience has re-invigorated my life on the bike. I've made adjustments with John since then and at no charge, (I am sure I do buy a lot of coffee at his in-store café tho!)
I am glad your new bike from the LBS (local bike shop?) suits you better and you too are a happier rider from the experiences
I now have a track bike, (fitted by John) a ride to the shops-Hybrid, fitted..etc and am activley training for Masters events later this year, I am doing 1000+ klms a month on the road, 10 hours on the track, not a skerrick of pain, discomfort or ache, other than my heart rate from the interval work outs, I am enjoying my riding more than ever and looking forward to a healthy, comfortable,...well maybe competitively uncomfortable, but riding without pain from the riding itself...the rest is up to me.
I try not to shoot messengers, just like to get to the bottom of their message and see what the real problem is, seems we have done that ! Good luck and ride safe!
cheers Roo
Looks like you are a success story Roo.
I'd have been back to the LBS, thrown the bike back at them and claimed my money back as the bike was severely unsuited for the intended purpose. Or in the least gone to another shop and seen what they had to say about your fit. I suppose research is the key and to not trust only one shop to get your size right when in the process of looking for a bike. If there are two identical bikes in two shops for sale and they advise differing sizes, alarm bells would start to ring.
I took a different approach for my new bike. I measured up on CAD my existing bike (which was comfortable) and then took the dimensions from all the bikes i was interested in to find the sizes which were most compatible. Took a while but once i bought it a few tweaks here and there had it about right for me. My last 100k'r showed a few small ****les but these are being tuned out with some thought and patience.
I do believe though, if a bike isn't comfortable straight away with a little bit of tweaking it never will be. You will just learn to ignore it or make up for it by making your body alter to a position which may be unnatural to you and in the mean time spend lots of money trying to find a solution to an ill advised purchase (and i blame the bike shops there).
No real offence to Kennedy, he has found a market niche for something your LBS should be doing right in the first place.
I'd have been back to the LBS, thrown the bike back at them and claimed my money back as the bike was severely unsuited for the intended purpose. Or in the least gone to another shop and seen what they had to say about your fit. I suppose research is the key and to not trust only one shop to get your size right when in the process of looking for a bike. If there are two identical bikes in two shops for sale and they advise differing sizes, alarm bells would start to ring.
I took a different approach for my new bike. I measured up on CAD my existing bike (which was comfortable) and then took the dimensions from all the bikes i was interested in to find the sizes which were most compatible. Took a while but once i bought it a few tweaks here and there had it about right for me. My last 100k'r showed a few small ****les but these are being tuned out with some thought and patience.
I do believe though, if a bike isn't comfortable straight away with a little bit of tweaking it never will be. You will just learn to ignore it or make up for it by making your body alter to a position which may be unnatural to you and in the mean time spend lots of money trying to find a solution to an ill advised purchase (and i blame the bike shops there).
No real offence to Kennedy, he has found a market niche for something your LBS should be doing right in the first place.
You're absolutley right, research is the key ( most though dont have the time and fall right into the LBS sales pitch for that month's sales targets)
If we all had the time, the money and the willingness to actually look after our own interests better, we would go to several custom builders, have a CAD assessment and a fit, get their dimensions, compare them, sit down with some one we trust to figure it all out on what dimensions and geometry will do for our physiology and aspirations try and solve that puzzle and then get the bike tailor made and live/ride happily ever after .
Fortunately there are plenty of good "craftsmen" ( not being gender specific here- it just makes sense to say that) around here in Oz to have a custom made hand-built rather than the mass produced from the LBSs.... infact now a custom is very competitive with the Wisconson Model T, or the Japanese and Taiwanese mass product, and even many from Europe.
So we have choices, price is more attractive, its just having the time and patience to endure the process.
Bottom line, we need more people riding more often, and we need motorists to share the road better.
Roo
PS: dont forget the Melbourne Wheels for Justice ride this Sat the 7th from Fed Square leaving at 9-30am for Parlt. Hse, be there with black, red or blue armbands, or all three and a water bottle with a message...spread the word.
see this: http://robbieroo.blogspot.com/ or look at other posts in c/f for Australia & NZ.
Roo
If we all had the time, the money and the willingness to actually look after our own interests better, we would go to several custom builders, have a CAD assessment and a fit, get their dimensions, compare them, sit down with some one we trust to figure it all out on what dimensions and geometry will do for our physiology and aspirations try and solve that puzzle and then get the bike tailor made and live/ride happily ever after .
Fortunately there are plenty of good "craftsmen" ( not being gender specific here- it just makes sense to say that) around here in Oz to have a custom made hand-built rather than the mass produced from the LBSs.... infact now a custom is very competitive with the Wisconson Model T, or the Japanese and Taiwanese mass product, and even many from Europe.
So we have choices, price is more attractive, its just having the time and patience to endure the process.
Bottom line, we need more people riding more often, and we need motorists to share the road better.
Roo
PS: dont forget the Melbourne Wheels for Justice ride this Sat the 7th from Fed Square leaving at 9-30am for Parlt. Hse, be there with black, red or blue armbands, or all three and a water bottle with a message...spread the word.
see this: http://robbieroo.blogspot.com/ or look at other posts in c/f for Australia & NZ.
Roo
Hi Roo,
I take your point. If the bike shop had done a better job when I got my first bike, Kennedy would not have had to make such radical changes to my bike. I hold no grudges against John, he is filling a void and I know most people who see him walk away happy. I would not go there again because I now know quite a bit more myself and have found a bike shop that is trustworthy and will do just as good a job.
So moving on....can I ask you something that should probably be a separate post. If a rider is sitting on their perineum instead of their sit bones is it the saddle, the saddle set up, or the rider?
Cipo
I take your point. If the bike shop had done a better job when I got my first bike, Kennedy would not have had to make such radical changes to my bike. I hold no grudges against John, he is filling a void and I know most people who see him walk away happy. I would not go there again because I now know quite a bit more myself and have found a bike shop that is trustworthy and will do just as good a job.
So moving on....can I ask you something that should probably be a separate post. If a rider is sitting on their perineum instead of their sit bones is it the saddle, the saddle set up, or the rider?
Cipo
rooman said:
John is a legend and a great bloke!
In fact, I was there just today getting a great deal on a Roselli carbon fork
I've been studying on and off for the last few years, and have therefore had very little money. John understood that I ain't rich, and has sold me SO much cheap stuff over the last five years that it's amazing!
Oh, but I haven't had a setup......yet
In fact, I was there just today getting a great deal on a Roselli carbon fork
I've been studying on and off for the last few years, and have therefore had very little money. John understood that I ain't rich, and has sold me SO much cheap stuff over the last five years that it's amazing!
Oh, but I haven't had a setup......yet
Hi Cipo,
from what little I know about seat geometry ( maybe the two Italian Selle's or Fi'z'ik, or Bontrager could help out on this one much better than me !), its a nightmare to work out as below are just some of the issues: -
confused...its a nightmare to resolve easily, and only those who have done a physical study of our anatomy, a scope of our riding style and an assessment of our fitness and application to task, can come close to getting an answer, and then they may be wrong as we all have huge variations in our intimate physiology, due to a myriad of factors.
But at the end of the day there are only so many variables. Hence why you see so many different saddles on the shelf, and why so many may look very much the same but they are in fact substantially different due to adjustment in the specification of one or more of the factors above...
that is why many saddles look the same as we go from shop to shop, but are, in fact, hugely different and their components spell a huge difference in price as well, on a seemingly similar item.
For my own saddle, for instance, my bike came with a Selle San Marco Race Gel seat, it felt OK at first, it had a neat indentation under the equipment and looked pretty swish to boot. But as I am a big bugger, I actually needed a longer saddle, with a wider sit bone position, a wider perineum spread, but a bigger, longer wider Gel section under the perineum, I also needed a longer rail and a better seat suspension than the original.... this meant my original saddle which probably cost around $150, wasnt much good for me on a road bike...but in fact it was pretty much perfect for me on my track bike, as there my position is much more forward, I am out of the saddle a lot anyway, the dimensions are finer for close thigh action and high cadence riding (110-140+).
The new saddle for my road bike came out at $250 like yours, I too looked around but I found it actually more expensive by a few bucks in other LBS's. Good saddles arnt cheap, when you start to add the bits in spec, that cost, ( suspension, gel, titanium, carbon, longer rails, indents, cut outs, splits, and the good ones are hand made...it gets up there) . Just look at a classic Brooks leather saddle , loved by long distance tourers, they look so simple, but they are very expensive and oh so nice on a classic bike, but not too practical in competition.
My Hybrid bike came with a huge lounge seat by Velo, it too had a perineum indent, it looked groovy by hybrid standards ( A GIANT el-cheapo by the way) , but as a bike, it is more set up to ride in an upright position, all day, as long as I dont want to ride for extended stretches over 30kph. Then the saddle is too flexible with no support, you wobble , slip and slide all over it at speed or high cadence.
Now I suppose this may have helped or hindered you, in solving the question you pose.... I do think tho, that a good assessment, a good fit and a bit of close looking at your riding style, capability on holding a position ( back or forward for extended times ( up to say 15-20 mins) and you can work out what you need. You do have to be on your sit bones though for the time when you are generating seated power, this puts great pressure forward if you are leaning heavily forward in the climb and if your perineum is a bit ...ummm shall we say more ample than many , then pressure will be felt and a numbness may follow, and the search goes on for the saddle to match the physiology and the riding style.
I am inclined to think in your case it may be you, plus you may still sit a bit forward, and your perineum could be either a bit more ample or a bit more sensitive than suits aggresive riding in that position. So perhaps either you sit back futher and get use to it, or you look for a contoured saddle that sits under where you want to be, not where you should be. As you said you had pain in the perineum before the change and after the change , you may not have really adjusted your body position relative to your pedals when you stand to attack in a sprint of surge on a hill and when you sit back in the saddle you sit back too forward and not on your sit bones...this is technique, I too did that for ages, but I finally got the hang of it and I no longer have that problem.
Of course we all should not remain seated in the one position anyway for too long, at least every 15-20 minutes, get out of the saddle, stand on the pedals, rev a bit, get the blood back into the butt cheeks and the sit bones and the perineum , and all will be forgiven from down there...., remember, "its off the ground, so its got to be fed"
Long winded bugger I know, but maybe this can help a few others work through some of the issues that we all get to face as we get out and ride more..which naturally more should do , more often!
cheers
Roo
from what little I know about seat geometry ( maybe the two Italian Selle's or Fi'z'ik, or Bontrager could help out on this one much better than me !), its a nightmare to work out as below are just some of the issues: -
- the rider's position, ( sitting forward to sprint, centred to sit up or way back to climb seated, and each of these by time in that position)
- the length of saddle from tip to sit bones alignment,
- the thickness of saddle through the perineum area,
- the firmness of the saddle under the sitbones
- the contour at that area, and the perineum
- the material and construction in the two areas ( gel, air, leather, plastic, carbon shell,)
- The angle/level of the saddle, if up or down can add unnecessary pressure, and you slip forward or back either by design(Tri) or bad setup.
- the weight of the rider and
- the width of the saddle in the nose area as it draws back to the flatter area across the sit bones
- plus the cockpit reach/height for you, and the pressure that bears when you lean forward naturally to settle in, especially on the drops.
- the saddle suspension, and
- the amount of adaptability or acceptance the perineum has made to your riding style and
- basic perineum health and dimensions, and (finally)
- the degree of pressure you naturally can endure, that is in fact "pain-free" (as opposed to functional pain, we think we are experiencing through stress or other injury trauma, when no physical injury is actually being caused or sending any pain signals, but we "feel pain" anyway! eg:Mediterranean Back Sydnrome viz:Functional Overlay)
confused...its a nightmare to resolve easily, and only those who have done a physical study of our anatomy, a scope of our riding style and an assessment of our fitness and application to task, can come close to getting an answer, and then they may be wrong as we all have huge variations in our intimate physiology, due to a myriad of factors.
But at the end of the day there are only so many variables. Hence why you see so many different saddles on the shelf, and why so many may look very much the same but they are in fact substantially different due to adjustment in the specification of one or more of the factors above...
that is why many saddles look the same as we go from shop to shop, but are, in fact, hugely different and their components spell a huge difference in price as well, on a seemingly similar item.
For my own saddle, for instance, my bike came with a Selle San Marco Race Gel seat, it felt OK at first, it had a neat indentation under the equipment and looked pretty swish to boot. But as I am a big bugger, I actually needed a longer saddle, with a wider sit bone position, a wider perineum spread, but a bigger, longer wider Gel section under the perineum, I also needed a longer rail and a better seat suspension than the original.... this meant my original saddle which probably cost around $150, wasnt much good for me on a road bike...but in fact it was pretty much perfect for me on my track bike, as there my position is much more forward, I am out of the saddle a lot anyway, the dimensions are finer for close thigh action and high cadence riding (110-140+).
The new saddle for my road bike came out at $250 like yours, I too looked around but I found it actually more expensive by a few bucks in other LBS's. Good saddles arnt cheap, when you start to add the bits in spec, that cost, ( suspension, gel, titanium, carbon, longer rails, indents, cut outs, splits, and the good ones are hand made...it gets up there) . Just look at a classic Brooks leather saddle , loved by long distance tourers, they look so simple, but they are very expensive and oh so nice on a classic bike, but not too practical in competition.
My Hybrid bike came with a huge lounge seat by Velo, it too had a perineum indent, it looked groovy by hybrid standards ( A GIANT el-cheapo by the way) , but as a bike, it is more set up to ride in an upright position, all day, as long as I dont want to ride for extended stretches over 30kph. Then the saddle is too flexible with no support, you wobble , slip and slide all over it at speed or high cadence.
Now I suppose this may have helped or hindered you, in solving the question you pose.... I do think tho, that a good assessment, a good fit and a bit of close looking at your riding style, capability on holding a position ( back or forward for extended times ( up to say 15-20 mins) and you can work out what you need. You do have to be on your sit bones though for the time when you are generating seated power, this puts great pressure forward if you are leaning heavily forward in the climb and if your perineum is a bit ...ummm shall we say more ample than many , then pressure will be felt and a numbness may follow, and the search goes on for the saddle to match the physiology and the riding style.
I am inclined to think in your case it may be you, plus you may still sit a bit forward, and your perineum could be either a bit more ample or a bit more sensitive than suits aggresive riding in that position. So perhaps either you sit back futher and get use to it, or you look for a contoured saddle that sits under where you want to be, not where you should be. As you said you had pain in the perineum before the change and after the change , you may not have really adjusted your body position relative to your pedals when you stand to attack in a sprint of surge on a hill and when you sit back in the saddle you sit back too forward and not on your sit bones...this is technique, I too did that for ages, but I finally got the hang of it and I no longer have that problem.
Of course we all should not remain seated in the one position anyway for too long, at least every 15-20 minutes, get out of the saddle, stand on the pedals, rev a bit, get the blood back into the butt cheeks and the sit bones and the perineum , and all will be forgiven from down there...., remember, "its off the ground, so its got to be fed"
Long winded bugger I know, but maybe this can help a few others work through some of the issues that we all get to face as we get out and ride more..which naturally more should do , more often!
cheers
Roo
Cipo said:
Thanks Roo,
I'm sure my answer lies in there somewhere now I just need to digest it all. Incidentally your saddle needs (quoted below) sound very much the same as mine so do you mind me asking what saddle you ended up with.
I'm about to try a Fizik Arione
Cheers
Cipo
I'm sure my answer lies in there somewhere now I just need to digest it all. Incidentally your saddle needs (quoted below) sound very much the same as mine so do you mind me asking what saddle you ended up with.
I'm about to try a Fizik Arione
Cheers
Cipo
rooman said:
I got a Selle Italia Nixé Gelflow , when they were first released, hard to get then, but like dogs bollocks now, so a lot cheaper, I think current retail for a new one is between $130 and $180 depending on the LBS stock levelsCipo said:
According to web this is part of the pitch on it :-
"A sophisticated rail with technically advanced design features outlines the character of this saddle: high tech and aggressive.
- TitaniumAlloy/ Carbon composite rail absorbs road vibrations like no other saddle.
- 3 elastomers further enhance this saddles comfort (suspension)
- Genuine Gel insert creates a contact area for the soft tissue of the rider
- Weight 285 grams
- Size 273* 140mm"
cheers
have a look at this from CyclingNews.com's tech specs, its a good comment on saddle design concepts and some of the things we have covered in our postsCipo said:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?=tech/2005/reviews/selle_italia_signohttp://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?=tech/2005/reviews/selle_italia_signo
I agree, yep good value and a great result. I had an old frame "cocked up" and the difference was amazing. Then I got a custom frame built by JK and it is magnificent - fits like a comfortable pari of shoes (or jeans, shirt, for that matter!)531Aussie said:John is a legend and a great bloke!
In fact, I was there just today getting a great deal on a Roselli carbon fork
I've been studying on and off for the last few years, and have therefore had very little money. John understood that I ain't rich, and has sold me SO much cheap stuff over the last five years that it's amazing!
Oh, but I haven't had a setup......yet
I hope you're all going on the Justice Ride this Saturday, check it out on: http://bicyclejustice.blogspot.com. Together we can make a difference and since we all enjoy riding on the road we need to protest about this travesty of justice!!!
Incidentally, I will be wearing the Kennedy CycleFit gear - fits quite well too!
