Kilo / Sprint Training

[FixedGearFever]

And please refer directly to any other drug charges I have made. Thank You BP

You didn't write this:

"..............Damn Marty Nothstien. I am sure he will say that he grew up near a track , got good coaching, ate slept and drank sprinting, had great genetics and lifted his ass off. Me no believe"

Comparing power lifting to track cycling is like comparing nascar to indy car racing. Not even close.

-fgf

 

[runna]

Thanks, no picking here. I am 44 yrs old, and would overtrain fast on that routine. Maybe its my powerlifting background, but I cant do much in the way of making progress when my legs are beat. As a lifetime drug free guy , we used to do all we could to keep the nervous system , joints and tissue rested. I have found that I need to apply how I feel to what i go for on the bike or gym. I cant argue with your background or applied science though. In my experience , the lower back gets abused the fastest. Deadlift , cleans, and squats that close together sounds like a real tired back and nervous system to me to me. Ok I guess thats picking. Thanks BP

One legged squats are fantastic for sparing your back, but giving your legs a total hiding. I found that doing squats and deadlifts usually tires my back out, but my legs didnt feel like they were getting as much as I could work them. One legged squats will allow your back to only lift nearly half the weight, whilst your legs are getting a maximal workout.

Not much good for a powerlifting lift, but really good for cycling.

 

[Billsworld]

Reread the whole back and forth there. I have nothing but a high opinion of Mr. Nothstien, and that was a tounge and cheeck remark in response to others acusing . From what I have read of him ,He did grow up near a track , ate slept breathed cycling and weights and appears to have picked great parents. I am sorry for the confusion , and I hope this clears up that . You friend at Analyticalcycling(whom I just bought a Kurt trainer from) seems to have alot of fill in the blank ??? to figure out stuff. They usully include the weight of the rider/bike etc.. Last note the Kiwi coach posted his routine and said "and feel free to pick it apart." I cant pick apart the cycling part,as I did state, but the weight training IS something I do know. So I picked anf feel I backed it up with sound evidence

You didn't write this:

"..............Damn Marty Nothstien. I am sure he will say that he grew up near a track , got good coaching, ate slept and drank sprinting, had great genetics and lifted his ass off. Me no believe"

Comparing power lifting to track cycling is like comparing nascar to indy car racing. Not even close.

-fgf

 

[Billsworld]

Thank you I have done them. I used to do heavy stepups too. I agree with that conclusion . Easier on the back

One legged squats are fantastic for sparing your back, but giving your legs a total hiding. I found that doing squats and deadlifts usually tires my back out, but my legs didnt feel like they were getting as much as I could work them. One legged squats will allow your back to only lift nearly half the weight, whilst your legs are getting a maximal workout.

Not much good for a powerlifting lift, but really good for cycling.

 

[Billsworld]

R you a track guy??

One legged squats are fantastic for sparing your back, but giving your legs a total hiding. I found that doing squats and deadlifts usually tires my back out, but my legs didnt feel like they were getting as much as I could work them. One legged squats will allow your back to only lift nearly half the weight, whilst your legs are getting a maximal workout.

Not much good for a powerlifting lift, but really good for cycling.

 

[runna]

R you a track guy??

Yup. Not an amazing one, but I only race track. Mainly sprint events such as keirin, match sprint etc.

 

[Billsworld]

A not amazing Aussie trackie. Is that like a not amazing hockey player from Canada. Can only go 10.9? haha Do you do any watts testing or do you work with the track times alone?

Yup. Not an amazing one, but I only race track. Mainly sprint events such as keirin, match sprint etc.

 

[cytek76]

Goodevening all...


The question of specificity of training is a very good one and something that unfortunately there will never be a right or wrong answer too.

After reading the replies to this question there are a few points that i would like to touch on...

In reference to developing a cardiovascualr base to assist with recovery and lactic acid removal, whislt this certainly is true, one shouldnt underestimate the ability of the body to be able to do this if specific sprint interval training is peformed.

Interval and sprint training (over various time frames and with various recovery periods) stimulates the bodies ability to not only perform these tasks but also to recover for the next one. Interval and sprint training is one of the most powerful and effective ways of improving cardiovascular fitness therefore if this cardiovascualr fitness is the desirable element, it would seem foolish not to incorporate it into the training.

the comments made on racing in keirins and the longer sprints required in match sprinting are also very valid and do require an element of cardiovascular fitness. I would argue though that the endurance required to perform these tasks would be best attained by performing these tasks, replicating in training what your body will be expected to do in racing.

On mitochondria density...Increasing the density of mitochondira through low intensity cardiovascular training only condtions these mitochondria for use in such situations, they cnnot be utliseds in high intensity efforts, negating the benifit. Mitochondria can be enhanced through high intensity efforts, but thwhile this may be more benficial, it is also less productive (prodcues fewer gains in mitochoindria levels)

So that has been the 'for' case for not doing LSD training miles, now the 'for' case for LSD miles.

Lower intensity training enhances the bodies ability to utilise fat as a fuel source and if this training is combined with higher intensity (not necessarily 100% max training) it enhances the bodies abiltiy to utilise fat as a fuel source as the intensity increases.

As fat is more energy dense than glyocgen, if the body can continue burning this fuel source for longer, as the intensity increases, then our glycogen stores are saved for explosive efforts (eg. full sprints).

Secondly, cardiovascular type training (lower intensity) imporves the bodies ability to store glyocogen and the mechanisims involved in the release of this energy from its stores.

If the body functions more efficiently at lower intensities (the product of such training) then all the processes the body goes through, including recovery, are enhanced.

So, as i have waffled on for long enough, i will close with my recommmendations on a training week in both off and racing season.

Off Season:

Weight Training: 3 per week
Moderate Intensity Long Rides: 3 per week
High Intensity Raod Training: 1 per week
Sprint Training: 3 per week
Recovery Ride: 1 per week

Racing Season:

Weight Training: 2-3 per week
Sprint Training: 3 per week
High Intensity Road Training: 2 per week
Moderate Intensity Road Training: 1 per week
Recovery Ride: 1 per week
I hope if nothing else, it provides either fuel for thought or something to challenge.

Thank you

 

[Billsworld]

Goodevening all...


The question of specificity of training is a very good one and something that unfortunately there will never be a right or wrong answer too.

After reading the replies to this question there are a few points that i would like to touch on...

In reference to developing a cardiovascualr base to assist with recovery and lactic acid removal, whislt this certainly is true, one shouldnt underestimate the ability of the body to be able to do this if specific sprint interval training is peformed.

Interval and sprint training (over various time frames and with various recovery periods) stimulates the bodies ability to not only perform these tasks but also to recover for the next one. Interval and sprint training is one of the most powerful and effective ways of improving cardiovascular fitness therefore if this cardiovascualr fitness is the desirable element, it would seem foolish not to incorporate it into the training.

the comments made on racing in keirins and the longer sprints required in match sprinting are also very valid and do require an element of cardiovascular fitness. I would argue though that the endurance required to perform these tasks would be best attained by performing these tasks, replicating in training what your body will be expected to do in racing.

On mitochondria density...Increasing the density of mitochondira through low intensity cardiovascular training only condtions these mitochondria for use in such situations, they cnnot be utliseds in high intensity efforts, negating the benifit. Mitochondria can be enhanced through high intensity efforts, but thwhile this may be more benficial, it is also less productive (prodcues fewer gains in mitochoindria levels)

So that has been the 'for' case for not doing LSD training miles, now the 'for' case for LSD miles.

Lower intensity training enhances the bodies ability to utilise fat as a fuel source and if this training is combined with higher intensity (not necessarily 100% max training) it enhances the bodies abiltiy to utilise fat as a fuel source as the intensity increases.

As fat is more energy dense than glyocgen, if the body can continue burning this fuel source for longer, as the intensity increases, then our glycogen stores are saved for explosive efforts (eg. full sprints).

Secondly, cardiovascular type training (lower intensity) imporves the bodies ability to store glyocogen and the mechanisims involved in the release of this energy from its stores.

If the body functions more efficiently at lower intensities (the product of such training) then all the processes the body goes through, including recovery, are enhanced.

So, as i have waffled on for long enough, i will close with my recommmendations on a training week in both off and racing season.

Off Season:

Weight Training: 3 per week
Moderate Intensity Long Rides: 3 per week
High Intensity Raod Training: 1 per week
Sprint Training: 3 per week
Recovery Ride: 1 per week

Racing Season:

Weight Training: 2-3 per week
Sprint Training: 3 per week
High Intensity Road Training: 2 per week
Moderate Intensity Road Training: 1 per week
Recovery Ride: 1 per week
I hope if nothing else, it provides either fuel for thought or something to challenge.

Thank you

I was hoping this thread would fade away and die. Not some of my brightest thoughts displayed on it......I have recently started using a power tap SL, and through some experimentation have concluded that I cant ride well untill at least 3 days after a gym session(legs) Unless all my experience/knowledge of weight training is flawed , training while your not recovered is a bad thing.My numbers for a 5sec peak have gone up since doing this. (and since Veloman told me to zero my powertap) I am most likely going to go back to an every other week leg routine in favor of more L6/L7 work on the bike and a few plyos. The rest of what you said of mitochondria/capilary work sounds right on. Thanks BW

 

[Ryan Cooper]

Just for discussion purpose.

What if a guy only wants to do sprints or a Kilo. Why would he do long slow rides as part of his training. What in the world is that going to do?

I know some will say that it helps recovery but Im not convinced 100% on that. It seems logical to me that rest and sleep is better for recovery than a low intensity ride. Because even though its low intensity doesnt it still take some effort and wouldnt that effort take away from your recovery? You only have so much energy..

Others may say it builds endurance. But wouldnt a 200m or a kilo effort at maximum intensity build any amount of endurance one might need to do that event? If this is true training frequency would be the thing to worry about most. Right??

Just thought I would spark a discussion

Is a carbon fiber stem a good idea on a track bike with metal nitto handle bars?

 

[cytek76]

THnaks Billsworld...I think you have just outlined the most fundamental rule with regards to program development and training, everybodies unique and it is a process of finding what works best for the individual.

Just so you know (if you did not already) alot of professional trackies will only train with weights every 4th day...which keeps in line with what you are currently doing. Some of the younger ones are blessed with rapid recovery abilities and can train more regularly, but generally it is every four days. Personally, my own training (being a little more 'seasoned') is during my off season i will aim to do three weights sessions per week for three weeks, then just two sessions in my fourth week...during racing i only ever do 2 weights sessions.

Although i may not agree with leg training every second week, at least you are mainitaining some, that is the important thing...

Ok then..well best of luck and i hope your 5sec peaks keep going up

I was hoping this thread would fade away and die. Not some of my brightest thoughts displayed on it......I have recently started using a power tap SL, and through some experimentation have concluded that I cant ride well untill at least 3 days after a gym session(legs) Unless all my experience/knowledge of weight training is flawed , training while your not recovered is a bad thing.My numbers for a 5sec peak have gone up since doing this. (and since Veloman told me to zero my powertap) I am most likely going to go back to an every other week leg routine in favor of more L6/L7 work on the bike and a few plyos. The rest of what you said of mitochondria/capilary work sounds right on. Thanks BW

 

[Billsworld]

THnaks Billsworld...I think you have just outlined the most fundamental rule with regards to program development and training, everybodies unique and it is a process of finding what works best for the individual.

Just so you know (if you did not already) alot of professional trackies will only train with weights every 4th day...which keeps in line with what you are currently doing. Some of the younger ones are blessed with rapid recovery abilities and can train more regularly, but generally it is every four days. Personally, my own training (being a little more 'seasoned') is during my off season i will aim to do three weights sessions per week for three weeks, then just two sessions in my fourth week...during racing i only ever do 2 weights sessions.

Although i may not agree with leg training every second week, at least you are mainitaining some, that is the important thing...

Ok then..well best of luck and i hope your 5sec peaks keep going up

I read a thread on FGF that was talking about elites lifting numbers. The guy claimed Ryan Baily to squat less than 400, Chris Hoy at 435?? or something Rosseau at around 400 lbs. I dont know how he knows this, but I can maintain higher numbers than that on an every other week routine while riding. Thats the reason I am not sure if the gym is going to get me much farther along . I have recently adopted the one leg squat, which seem a bit less taxing on the back. First two or three workouts I was wobbling on one leg, but I have tightend up. Up to 165lbsx10...less wobble. I still think I need more work on the bike. I know it sounds dumb to some people , but I am fixated on the number 2000........ A boy can dream. Thanks for the advice BW

 

[velomanct]

I read a thread on FGF that was talking about elites lifting numbers. The guy claimed Ryan Baily to squat less than 400, Chris Hoy at 435?? or something Rosseau at around 400 lbs. I dont know how he knows this, but I can maintain higher numbers than that on an every other week routine while riding. Thats the reason I am not sure if the gym is going to get me much farther along . I have recently adopted the one leg squat, which seem a bit less taxing on the back. First two or three workouts I was wobbling on one leg, but I have tightend up. Up to 165lbsx10...less wobble. I still think I need more work on the bike. I know it sounds dumb to some people , but I am fixated on the number 2000........ A boy can dream. Thanks for the advice BW

I think you are right, there is a point where more weights won't help you, if you are already that strong. Just keep up with the bike work, you can get that 2000 peak, it's not that out of the question.

 

[Billsworld]

I think you are right, there is a point where more weights won't help you, if you are already that strong. Just keep up with the bike work, you can get that 2000 peak, it's not that out of the question.

Anyone have any experience with the ergometer from BT. Auzzie sales. I ts getting cold here, and my Kurt trainer isnt cutting it for me. I heard the US team just got 3 of them , and the concept is a good one.

 

[2006]

Because I'am very interested in sprinting and kilo's, I have followed this thread from it's beginning.

The part that confuses me, is all of the technical jargon that you fellows pass back and forth regarding your training.

What is everyones P.B.'s for 200m or 1 kilometer.?

And what types of improvements have you boy's made over the past 2 seasons while training using these methods?

I guess what I'am asking is, are you using all of this technical information to make positive improvements in your bike racing?

Thank you

2006

 

[Billsworld]

Because I'am very interested in sprinting and kilo's, I have followed this thread from it's beginning.

The part that confuses me, is all of the technical jargon that you fellows pass back and forth regarding your training.

What is everyones P.B.'s for 200m or 1 kilometer.?

And what types of improvements have you boy's made over the past 2 seasons while training using these methods?

I guess what I'am asking is, are you using all of this technical information to make positive improvements in your bike racing?

Thank you

2006

If your posted times are real , you should write a nice post and dispense some of your wisdom. I would love to know about your gym work too. Thanks BW

 

[2006]

Bill,

Yes of course those times that I posted took place many years ago.

What I like about the training workouts that the sprinters are doing these days, specially for us older farts that probably have many other things on the go.

The workouts are high intensity ( this really hasn't changed ) but there isn't much time spent doing basic general fitness riding.

Of course for the full time riders I'am sure that they must be doing some riding just to keep the turkey off. ( least according to Fergie)

Currently where I live we have snow, so I'am attempting to do some 10 sec work, 30 sec work, and 5 min work on various days on the Turbo. And I vary the loads depending on what I'am trying to accomplish.

But for me personally what I see is one major difference between a rider ( lets say in our Category 45-50 yr) unless you have experienced "dumping the tank" as I like to refer to it. It is hard to teach.

Now from some of your posts Bill I think that you said that you were a lifter.

I feel that dumping the tank is the same as a P.B. in the squat. You hold nothing back, and go for broke.

So when you are doing sprint training I like to record my Max speed, and try and remember how long I can hold it there. When I get really fit I'am good for 8 sec sustained max speed, and maybe 15-20 seconds at 95%.

But much like the sprinters of today we always trained sprints at full recovery. And did 30's at full recovery. we spent way to much time on general road riding.

Thanks

 

[Billsworld]

Bill,

Yes of course those times that I posted took place many years ago.

What I like about the training workouts that the sprinters are doing these days, specially for us older farts that probably have many other things on the go.

The workouts are high intensity ( this really hasn't changed ) but there isn't much time spent doing basic general fitness riding.

Of course for the full time riders I'am sure that they must be doing some riding just to keep the turkey off. ( least according to Fergie)

Currently where I live we have snow, so I'am attempting to do some 10 sec work, 30 sec work, and 5 min work on various days on the Turbo. And I vary the loads depending on what I'am trying to accomplish.

But for me personally what I see is one major difference between a rider ( lets say in our Category 45-50 yr) unless you have experienced "dumping the tank" as I like to refer to it. It is hard to teach.

Now from some of your posts Bill I think that you said that you were a lifter.

I feel that dumping the tank is the same as a P.B. in the squat. You hold nothing back, and go for broke.

So when you are doing sprint training I like to record my Max speed, and try and remember how long I can hold it there. When I get really fit I'am good for 8 sec sustained max speed, and maybe 15-20 seconds at 95%.

But much like the sprinters of today we always trained sprints at full recovery. And did 30's at full recovery. we spent way to much time on general road riding.

Thanks

Thats more or less what I am trying to do to. I cant hold nearly that long though. I am trying to work the shorter 5second power up so the downward curve will yield a higher average. I am looking at ergos for indoor stuff, its freezing here too. I noticed that the better sprinters are making peak power around 20 seconds in from a standing start. Is that your experience too? If youll indulge me one more..I noticed the good kilo guys(Chris Hoy) moving way forward on the seat. Rather odd feeling poition if you know what I mean. I noticed the ability to generate way more power in the seated position there. Is that because of personal biomechanics , or more of rule of thumb? Lastly, in defense of power meters etc.. I couldnt figure any of this stuff out without going to a track and getting timed. For me it makes cycling a bit more like gym work in the sense that I can see if I am going backwards or overtraining. The numbers dont lie. Thanks Much BW

 

[2006]

Thats more or less what I am trying to do to. I cant hold nearly that long though. I am trying to work the shorter 5second power up so the downward curve will yield a higher average. I am looking at ergos for indoor stuff, its freezing here too. I noticed that the better sprinters are making peak power around 20 seconds in from a standing start. Is that your experience too? If youll indulge me one more..I noticed the good kilo guys(Chris Hoy) moving way forward on the seat. Rather odd feeling poition if you know what I mean. I noticed the ability to generate way more power in the seated position there. Is that because of personal biomechanics , or more of rule of thumb? Lastly, in defense of power meters etc.. I couldnt figure any of this stuff out without going to a track and getting timed. For me it makes cycling a bit more like gym work in the sense that I can see if I am going backwards or overtraining. The numbers dont lie. Thanks Much BW

Yes I feel that peak power would come into play around the 20 sec mark for the top boys. Most likely the same for us, except it won't be as "peak" LOL

Pulling oneself forward on the bike is definitely personal feeling but does give you better biomechanics for trying to get it all out. I think that if you have to think about it though, then you've lost valuable time. It has to come naturally. And if so then you will be sitting in (your) slot.

And regards overtraining, I find that my gym work gives me plenty of notification. and way sooner than the bike. I always say to the youngsters, "there is no hiding in the gym, you either bench 300lb or not and 295lb is not 300lb".

2006

 

[Billsworld]

Yes I feel that peak power would come into play around the 20 sec mark for the top boys. Most likely the same for us, except it won't be as "peak" LOL

Pulling oneself forward on the bike is definitely personal feeling but does give you better biomechanics for trying to get it all out. I think that if you have to think about it though, then you've lost valuable time. It has to come naturally. And if so then you will be sitting in (your) slot.

And regards overtraining, I find that my gym work gives me plenty of notification. and way sooner than the bike. I always say to the youngsters, "there is no hiding in the gym, you either bench 300lb or not and 295lb is not 300lb".

2006

You can get youngsters to listen to you?? Impressive! Do you still hammer in the gym? Its getting harder every year for me. You stll race?