Kilo / Sprint Training

Discussion in 'Track Racing' started by Brad Wadlow, Mar 15, 2005.

  1. 2006

    2006 New Member

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    If it got easlier them everyone would until they got older to start training. :) :) :)
     


  2. Billsworld

    Billsworld New Member

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    I am going to pick your brain again.When I train on my fixed, I ride the only gear I have 48x14. I do about same type of training as you do , in that I am mostly looking at top speed on flats. I usuall do this off a hill .I can barely get it up to about 150 rpm on a good day . I am stuck there.The issue isnt leg speed , as I can spin smaller gears faster . I recently got 5 sec peak over 1500(sorry for the tech stuff), but what would you suggest to get power in that rpm range .My logic would be to buy some gears slightly over and under the 14 and just kep slamming up against that range. Am I equating this to gym work too much? I havnt been able to look at a power tap curve for that type of sprint yet cuz its too cold. Sat. is supposed to be 50 ...maybe then. Merry Christmas Thank BW
     
  3. 2006

    2006 New Member

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    Here is something that I did in 1998. I was 42 yr old then.

    When I started sprinting in the spring of that year, I was using 48x15. Out on the open roads, we have no tracks, fortunately we have plenty of quiet roads near by.

    I stayed on that gear till around June and I geared up to 46x14. My therory was that the paved roads were not perfectly smooth, so 46x14 would be similar to a larger gear on a nice smooth track.

    I found a road with a nice hill ( maybe 25 meters down) this gave me plenty of initial start speed. ( plus I train alone)

    I used that road all summer and if I had a tail wind I figured it for speed work, and if I had a head wind used it for strength work.

    I very first sprint that I did that spring was top end 56 kph. 48x15

    The last one that I did in September was 81 kph 46x14
    ( now this was behind a motor cycle, but leg RPM's over 160)

    But I could do regularly sprints with no motor 74 kph consistenly.

    So before you go to larger gears I would suggest that you learn to handle these sizes. Maybe once and a while throw in a 48x14 for some work.

    Remember if you feel you should use 48x14 you had better be able to go low 11's or 1.06. Or the gear is simply to big. You will win more races on a smaller gear. Plus on a smaller gear if the race doesn't go your way you have a better chance to recover from your mistake.

    Now before people start flaming me I realise that there are always exceptions to every therory.

    E.G. If you are racing a Dude that can go low 11's and you can't, then it doesn't matter what gear you have on .

    Hope that this helps Bill. :)
     
  4. Billsworld

    Billsworld New Member

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    Thanks, I thought that was a small gear. I looked at the pros running 50x14 and thought that was right. Stupid newbee!! I think you were way over 160....maybe 170+for the 45mph .I can get a 42x18 granny gear in tha 170s , but not a real gear. Anyhow I think a gear change sounds in order, Great post. Thanks BP
     
  5. 2006

    2006 New Member

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    Bill, don't forget that when the Pro's use 50x14 they are doing speeds that could take them into the low 10's.

    If you know what your average 200m time is, lets discuss the gear size.

    You certainly have leg speed, you just have to increase the power.
    ( I said that like it's easy LOL)

    2006
     
  6. fergie

    fergie Member

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    Bit similar to the East Germans sprinters who trained on an outdoor track in Cottbus and felt that any track after that was super fast.

    Is this because there is no one to train with or you prefer to train alone? The German, French, British and Australian teams appear to be the most successful and have the most depth.

    Great, reminds me of how simple training can be.

    Good advice. I am training a sprinter here in Christchurch who has always ridden 48-14 and never appeared to get over it. I have finally got really stuck into him and he is down to a 47-14 and is winning all the Masters events and for the first time in years looks in control of the bike. He is around the 12.0 mark so a lower gear is better for him.

    Gary West the ex Aussie Sprint Coach explained that at International level everyone rode 48-14 and the women 47-14. They wouldn't alter this for fear of being exploited tactically. They would go up to a 50-14 for the qualifying round

    Our top two U17 sprinters are restricted to a 46-15 and are both sitting around the 12.0 mark and are very smooth on such a small gear. It will be interesting to see if they go any faster next year with unrestricted gears.

    One thing that is interesting is the use of low frequency cadence training. The Aussie Sprinters used to do an 8km climb in Adelaide in a 53-14 on the drops or Aero Bars (pursuiters) at around 40-50rpm in the General Prep phase and alternated this with O2 training doing 20min efforts in a 39-19 gear at 170 rpm (Sprinters) or 140rpm (Pursuiters) .

    On the track we see riders doing a phase of high gear low frequency work. Have seen videos of the French doing Kilos from a seated start in a 53-12. At our track here or U17s do standing 100s and 200s on a 50-14 when they will race on a 50-16. Pursuiters do the same thing.

    Charlie Walsh has developed several erg training programmes that use low pedal freq programmes that include big gear efforts from 6sec to 5 min.

    If we go back really old school running coach Arthur Lydiard had his runners do a block of hill running up very steep hills just before he switched them from his 100 mile a week of fast aerobic runs to anaerobic training.

    One thing I like about LF especially down at the 40-50rpm range is that you can really work on pedalling through the whole pedal stroke. By the same token high pedal freq work also tells you a lot about what you need to work on with the rider. Our National Track Coach said he prefers to see young riders do more high freq work while developing. One young rider overdid LF work and suffered chronic muscle fatigue and hasn't been on the bike since March!

    Hamish Ferguson
    Cycling Coach
     
  7. fergie

    fergie Member

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    AFAIK they only use 50-14 for the qualifying round to go around 9.8 (WR) to 10.2.

    So the question is do you start high and develop the power to push it or do you start on a low gear and and increase the gear once you are fully over it?

    Hamish Ferguson
    Cycling Coach
     
  8. 2006

    2006 New Member

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    Great post Fergie,

    I love the way that sprinting has advanced, and the way that they have taken very old training methods and gone to the next level with them.

    I was speaking to an older Italian gentleman today. He was telling me about Antonio Maspes ( forget how many worlds that he won) in those days (early 60's) the sprinters didn't much more than sprint events. But they were fortunate because there was an abundance of events. It was after the track died off that we started doing Crit's, some of it for appearance $$, but mostly just to race.
    I rode many of the big US crits that took place in May, June.

    But no matter how you cut it, cycling always boils down to one thing.

    "Pedal fast to go fast"
     
  9. Billsworld

    Billsworld New Member

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    Thank you both. I had no 16 on my road bike where I have the power tap. Tried a 52x17 went 38mph @160 felt light, but ran out of leg speed . I havnt been doing any leg speed work in months. Oddly, peak power(1200) was at about same as max speed and cadence?? 15 minutes prior I had run a 100 meter 10degree uphill sprint where I put out 1567 peak. at about 120 rpm. Does that peak snap power have any inflence on the high rpm work, or are they two things that get worked independent of each other I think 2006s advice on the 46x14 was right on, and I think the 175 cranks on the road bike need to be a little shorter too????. Fergie is the ergo you are speaking of the air brake one on the BT website? Merry Christmas All.. BP
     
  10. Billsworld

    Billsworld New Member

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    Crank length?? 160?
     
  11. 2006

    2006 New Member

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    165's :) :) .....
     
  12. Billsworld

    Billsworld New Member

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    Ya know If i make all the changes to the fixed I wont have any power tap data...... Ill have to go back to the old fart ...I mean old fasion way of just building top end speed:eek: .....Thought you might like that one.:) :) I know that the ability to run a 4.4 40 yard dash , doent mean your an NFL running back. I do believe however that you can build a certain amount of ability that can transfer to the track prior to going to a track like you do. How fast were you in 98 , when you could push to 74kph
     
  13. fergie

    fergie Member

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    Yeah Charlie Walsh is one of the people behind the BT Ergs. He has always used a similar design and the Aussie riders use them around the World when riding in Pro teams to keep in touch with their track speed while road racing.

    One of our local sprint coaches doesn't believe in them for the sprint riders but I think it depends on what you want out of a session. You can use the 39X26 gear setting to get really high cadence work.

    I trained a sprinter one year with no track training at all. I had had enough of the politics and didn't even go to racing and just did her training in the weights room and on a windtrainer and she had great results.

    In fact it appears that the NZ Track Team will do little track training at all before our Nationals starting Jan 9th. Some are doing a 4 day hilly road tour that finishes on the 4th! Pursuiters of course.

    Hamish Ferguson
    Cycling Coach
     
  14. Billsworld

    Billsworld New Member

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    Thats what I suspected on that air brake erg. Increase in rpm results in more resistance . Isnt there a huge learning curve to learning to TT on a track that cant be worked on the road , gym or ergo. I suspect that the riders you speak of already have lots of track time?? Merry Christmas BP
     
  15. 2006

    2006 New Member

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    You can try this on the road.

    The best TT artists on the track can hug the base line better than anyone. Which of course reduces the distance covered.

    On the road practice riding on the line that usually skirts near the curb. In order to do this properly you must have your eyes focused approx. 10-12 meters in front. You will find it remarkable just how well you can stay right on that little 3" strip of paint.

    Sometimes if you are doing sprints on the road, and there are NO cars try doing a full out effort right down the middle, on the line, using this technique.

    While on the Velodrome we always focused on the line through the turns, or even riding 1 cm below the base line. Down the straight if you waver slightly it won't cost you as much. :)
     
  16. Sam Armour

    Sam Armour New Member

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    Hey everyone.

    'fraid I'm a newbie, so apologies if my questions have missed the obvious.

    Fergie, in your schedule (a large chunk of which I'm using, and have picked up a load of speed over the last 6 weeks - thanks!), you talk about reps of 6s max speed - is this a high cadence exercise with a moderate/low gear to develop leg speed, or should I be using a 'track' sized gear (eg 88 inches) to develop power?

    Also, I don't have access to equipment/people (or money!) to test my VO2 max - is there any way I can use training levels based on heartrate or similar?

    And does the 12 sets of 15s on, 15s off max VO2 actually mean a 6 minute training session (or am I being incredibly dumb)?

    Would appreciate any help anyone can give me.
    Cheers,
    Sam.

     
  17. Billsworld

    Billsworld New Member

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    Are you doing the lifting in the routine? How long have you been racing? Nothing to add, just interested in the results.
     
  18. Sam Armour

    Sam Armour New Member

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    Hey Bill.

    I'm coming back to racing after 5 or 6 years off! I've kept fit during this time (fair amount of cyling, running, etc), but nothing in the explosive/power range, though this is what I was naturally better at when I was last racing.

    Have started specific sprint training for this season pretty late - only about 6 or 7 weeks and have been concentrating on getting speed and cadence back. I don't really have the time to do the whole of Fergie's programme (nor the regular cash to get access to a gym with a decent squat bar or leg press), and if I did manage to follow it to the letter, I'd burn myself out after a month. (Given that I'm pretty undertrained at the moment.)

    In addition to the bike stuff (which I've been doing, though more towards the max power end rather than an threshold stuff), I do some overgeared starts every other week. Also, from this week, I'm going to start doing some lower body plyometrics once a week.

    Hard to gauge accurately quite how much faster I'm going - I'm now able to hold long (20s) sprints much easier and with faster average speed on the turbo. Can also now get a decent sized gear (48x15, outdoor concrete) to top speed and still have something left in the tank to hold it and then kick again.

    Will be doing the local track league from Monday onwards, so I'll let you know how I do....

    And if anyone knows the answers to my previous questions re Fergie's programme, it would be much appreciated!!

    Cheers,
    Sam.

     
  19. 6002

    6002 New Member

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    Sam my man,

    It's great to hear that you can't keep a good man down!

    Fergie's program is quite sound, and centers around the basic fundamentals of sprinting.

    From what I've read here, you need to continue what you have started. You said that you have remained fit, yet still realise that in order to sprint at a decent level you require a great deal more work.

    Six-seven weeks is not a long time when embarking on a solid program. Not sure how old you are, but age will be a determining factor on your progress.

    If I could offer any advise, continue what you are doing. And do as much as is possible, ( commitments, work, family, etc). And don't be afraid to build up the leg speed and endurance on 82-86" gears. You will recover better and then be able to do more training.

    You mentioned that you have raced before, you will know when the time is right to bump your training gears to 88" + .


    2006
     
  20. WarrenG

    WarrenG New Member

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    I'd skip the plyometrics in favor of other training that is much more specific for your goals. Maybe next year if you feel like you have lots of time to train you can use some things that are not so specific but maybe still helpful.

    The 15/15's would be continuous for 5+ minutes. For a track sprint type rider (I am one) you will be better served to use 30/30's because these will include a harder acceleration that will help develop your ability to accelerate on the track. The 15/15's have a short rest and the accelerations can't be as hard, in part because your speed won't drop as much, and because you don't have enough recovery time to do some decent accelerations. 15/15's would be more suitable for a pursuit rider or similar.

    Generally, you'd start out with about 10 minutes of total on/off time (e.g. 2 sets of 5x 30/30", 5 efforts of 30" with 4 efforts of rest between) and work up to 20 minutes or so, depending on your objectives. Allow 3-5' rest between sets depending on your fitness.

    You can estimate your VO2max HR with intervals that illicit VO2max, like 4' as hard as you can do at steady pace, rest 5', repeat. I don't know why you'd really need to know your VO2max HR, just do the intervals by the effort you can sustain for the duration without slowing down much. Generally, HR isn't very useful for efforts done faster than your threshold.
     
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