Kilowatt club

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

In a true sprint, aerodynamics matters, so you would probably want to be in the drops, fairly far forward and low. Take a look at some of the pics of the women track championships for good position.

RD - say like this?

Ok so for a competition, (me? if only), use the drops and get aero but should I train sprints in the drops, hoods or it doesn't matter?

 

[frenchyge]

RD - say like this?

Yep. That's better than this:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/aug06/USPROcrit06/?id=/photos/2006/aug06/USPROcrit06/USPROcrit063/DS06_eliteWomen_03

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

Yep. That's better than this:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/aug06/USPROcrit06/?id=/photos/2006/aug06/USPROcrit06/USPROcrit063/DS06_eliteWomen_03

Eh, well, yes, but nobody will argue that she's 'flying'....

 

[RapDaddyo]

RD - say like this?

Yes. See how aero they are? At high speeds, air resistance is a big deal and if you're not tiny you need to minimize your frontal area as much as you can.

Ok so for a competition, (me? if only), use the drops and get aero but should I train sprints in the drops, hoods or it doesn't matter?

The main thing you're training is your NM power, so it doesn't matter much what position you're in to increase your power. But, since things happen very fast in a sprint finish (i.e., no time to think about what you're going to do), it's a good idea to do at least some of your sprint training at both full speed (for bike handling skills) and in the aero position. This is something you need to experiment with, as it's easy to get so low that the tops of your thighs bounce up against your stomach. That tends to make life more difficult. You don't want to be guessing about position when it comes time to put the hammer down. You'll be plenty busy avoiding crashing.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Yep. That's better than this:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/aug06/USPROcrit06/?id=/photos/2006/aug06/USPROcrit06/USPROcrit063/DS06_eliteWomen_03

Uh oh, that next 1/10th of a second is not going to feel good.

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

Yes. See how aero they are? At high speeds, air resistance is a big deal and if you're not tiny you need to minimize your frontal area as much as you can.

Aye, they are quite aero. Obviously they are going longer distances than I am in these little sprints I'm doing. However, I see your point, even in a RR, how drag is a huge factor at speed - obviously that's why much of TT work involves finding the right position.

The main thing you're training is your NM power, so it doesn't matter much what position you're in to increase your power. But, since things happen very fast in a sprint finish (i.e., no time to think about what you're going to do), it's a good idea to do at least some of your sprint training at both full speed (for bike handling skills) and in the aero position. This is something you need to experiment with, as it's easy to get so low that the tops of your thighs bounce up against your stomach. That tends to make life more difficult. You don't want to be guessing about position when it comes time to put the hammer down. You'll be plenty busy avoiding crashing.

I was thinking that today - about how fast everything must happen in these sprint situations. I wondered, wow, you so much as make the wrong gear choice or position and your chance just goes by the wayside.

I'll experiment with positions going forward...

 

[RapDaddyo]

RD - say like this?

Here's a good pic from the front of a RR finish http://www.womenscycling.net/2006/Gallery2006/HLT/Stage6/IMG_2076.htm.

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

Here's a good pic from the front of a RR finish http://www.womenscycling.net/2006/Gallery2006/HLT/Stage6/IMG_2076.htm.

And t-mobile takes it by several bike lengths!

Nice picture

 

[otb4evr]

Aye, they are quite aero. Obviously they are going longer distances than I am in these little sprints I'm doing. However, I see your point, even in a RR, how drag is a huge factor at speed - obviously that's why much of TT work involves finding the right position.

Distance doesn't matter so much as time...

Remember, sprint training should be in the 15 second range.

I was thinking that today - about how fast everything must happen in these sprint situations. I wondered, wow, you so much as make the wrong gear choice or position and your chance just goes by the wayside.

I'll experiment with positions going forward...

Here is how I do my sprint training:

Form Sprints
In a medium gear (53x17) at about 20 mph, stand and sprint. Sit when you are on top of the gear and shift to the 16. Keep accelerating the gear until you hit 120 - 140 rpm. This should be a total of 12 - 15 seconds. Recover in a light gear for 3 - 5 minutes. Do 4 - 6 of these.

I feel it gets me ready for the sprint at the end. You need to make sure you do this enough to be able to do it without thinking. You know, muscle memory and all that stuff...

You will be able to select the gear by feel when the pack is ramping it up.

Jim

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

Distance doesn't matter so much as time...

Remember, sprint training should be in the 15 second range.

Hi Jim - 15 seconds sounds just about right. In all the sprints I've done recently I've realized that in an all-out situation, I blow up at about 15 seconds, if not a bit sooner. More work for me to do!

Here is how I do my sprint training:

Form Sprints
In a medium gear (53x17) at about 20 mph, stand and sprint. Sit when you are on top of the gear and shift to the 16. Keep accelerating the gear until you hit 120 - 140 rpm. This should be a total of 12 - 15 seconds. Recover in a light gear for 3 - 5 minutes. Do 4 - 6 of these.

I feel it gets me ready for the sprint at the end. You need to make sure you do this enough to be able to do it without thinking. You know, muscle memory and all that stuff...

You will be able to select the gear by feel when the pack is ramping it up.

Jim

Thanks for sharing your form sprint workouts. You know, staying in a 53x17 for a while is actually a lot of work for me....for a short time no problem!

I totally agree with the whole muscle memory, instinctive, no-thinking approach as stuff surely happens too fast at the end of a road race to be plotting and planning!

I actually remember that you, Alex, and RD were the first people who responded to my initial post on these forums. You even mentioned being curious about my numbers, well some are absolutely laughable (hello FTP!!), but others are respectable (5s power). It is neat to learn so much and get good suggestions/advice from folks here.

 

[Alex Simmons]

Wow - very impressive numbers!

Hitting way over 1000 again and again, then at the end to win...

I was 4th. The lead rider into last corner lost it, baulking me and the others got a clear line (winner broke away with 1.5 laps remaining - but he is on another level - he set a new national pursuit record earlier this year and MTB is his main game!). But my NP for that race was a PB by miles.....

 

[Alex Simmons]

I actually remember that you, Alex, and RD were the first people who responded to my initial post on these forums. You even mentioned being curious about my numbers, well some are absolutely laughable (hello FTP!!), but others are respectable (5s power). It is neat to learn so much and get good suggestions/advice from folks here.

No number is laughable, so stop that sort of talk right now . It is what it is and you are on the way to developing the adaptations required to see improved numbers as a consequence of your training.

You are absolutely right to focus on aerobic abilities as they dominate performance in almost all cycling events, so they are crucial to improve but for a natural fast twitcher - it's about having enough aerobic ability to be there and be in reasonable shape at the business end of a race* (but not all races suit fast twitchers). It's amazing how good bunch riding skills/nouse can get you to the end of a race having used significantly less power than others.

Having that sort of a kick in your quiver is something to treasure.

* of course if you have the sprint and are better aerobically, well then you can really have some fun

 

[Alex Simmons]

I was 4th. The lead rider into last corner lost it, baulking me and the others got a clear line (winner broke away with 1.5 laps remaining - but he is on another level - he set a new national pursuit record earlier this year and MTB is his main game!). But my NP for that race was a PB by miles.....

I should also add, that while I showed the chart to point out that ability to consistently repeat NMP can be crucial in crits (i.e. more than just once in final sprint), you still need the aerobic engine to go on with it.

 

[Alex Simmons]

Ok so for a competition, (me? if only), use the drops and get aero but should I train sprints in the drops, hoods or it doesn't matter?

As RD says, for NMP adaptations it doesn't matter much but IMHO - one can't get full power delivery unless they're in the drops taking advantage of the better leverage available in that position (not to mention better aero) - and if one can generate more power while hanging onto the hoods than they do when in the drops then their handle bar / position is wrong....

I also think sprinting in the drops is much safer as bike control is crucial when you are at maximum effort.

 

[otb4evr]

Hi Jim - 15 seconds sounds just about right. In all the sprints I've done recently I've realized that in an all-out situation, I blow up at about 15 seconds, if not a bit sooner. More work for me to do!



Thanks for sharing your form sprint workouts. You know, staying in a 53x17 for a while is actually a lot of work for me....for a short time no problem!

Change the gear that you start your sprint in, then. Just make sure you are cruising at around 80 - 85 rpm before you nail it...

Customizing the workouts to fit your individuality will get the most "bang for the buck". Find out what works for Lucy. How does she respond when she changes 'this'? Etc...

We are all individuals and will respond differently to stimuli. Exploit this and find what works best for you...

Keep a detailed log...

I totally agree with the whole muscle memory, instinctive, no-thinking approach as stuff surely happens too fast at the end of a road race to be plotting and planning!

I actually remember that you, Alex, and RD were the first people who responded to my initial post on these forums. You even mentioned being curious about my numbers, well some are absolutely laughable (hello FTP!!), but others are respectable (5s power). It is neat to learn so much and get good suggestions/advice from folks here.

This is a journey. Enjoy all the stops along the way and don't forget to smell the roses...

Don't neglect the right side of the curve by concentrating on the left side.

Don't forget why you ride a bike. Take the time out and just noodle every once in a while. It will help you mentally, as well as physically.

Every couple of weeks, shake it up a bit. With a steady diet of <insert workout>, you will get stale. Don't let that happen.

When racing season comes around, spend the time to learn how to race. Learn to navigate through the pack using as little energy as possible, learn who your main rivals are, learn what everyone's strengths and weaknesses are, etc. This is just as valuable, if not more valuable than, building your FTP.

Enjoy...

Jim

 

[RapDaddyo]

Don't neglect the right side of the curve by concentrating on the left side.

Actually, given Lucy's racing goals next spring (crits and RRs), I'd say she can safely ignore the left side of her MP/duration curve. I wonder how much our training is influenced by what we are naturally good at. While I haven't looked at the PM files of women's Cat4/3 crits and RRs (and maybe someone who has studied these files can chime in), I'm guessing that her 5sec power is good enough today to win lots of field sprints in the races she will be entering next year, without any further training whatsoever. That's not true of the right side of her MP/duration curve. Sprint training takes time and energy. It is a use of her scarce resource -- training time. My recommendation for allocation of training time to L7s at this point in time = zero!

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

This is a journey. Enjoy all the stops along the way and don't forget to smell the roses...

Don't neglect the right side of the curve by concentrating on the left side.

Don't forget why you ride a bike. Take the time out and just noodle every once in a while. It will help you mentally, as well as physically.

Every couple of weeks, shake it up a bit. With a steady diet of <insert workout>, you will get stale. Don't let that happen.

When racing season comes around, spend the time to learn how to race. Learn to navigate through the pack using as little energy as possible, learn who your main rivals are, learn what everyone's strengths and weaknesses are, etc. This is just as valuable, if not more valuable than, building your FTP.

Enjoy...

Jim

Hi Jim - smelling the flowers is no problem for me, it is rather typical of my personality! Granted some would look at the right side of my MP curve and say all I'm doing is noodling, but to me it is a lot of work - lol

Pedal less, but when I pedal, pedal hardest/fastest

No number is laughable, so stop that sort of talk right now . It is what it is and you are on the way to developing the adaptations required to see improved numbers as a consequence of your training.

You are absolutely right to focus on aerobic abilities as they dominate performance in almost all cycling events, so they are crucial to improve but for a natural fast twitcher - it's about having enough aerobic ability to be there and be in reasonable shape at the business end of a race* (but not all races suit fast twitchers). It's amazing how good bunch riding skills/nouse can get you to the end of a race having used significantly less power than others.

Having that sort of a kick in your quiver is something to treasure...

Hi Alex - indeed the numbers are just numbers and reflect genetics, etc.

I've realized, quite quickly in the last few days, that I really enjoy sprinting. So doing them rarely feels like work or more labored as do the L4 intervals. Then again, this is probably typical in that we all tend to enjoy training our strengths, much less so of our weaknesses.

What you mention about bunch riding skills while using less power than others and such sounds exactly like Dr. Coggan's observation - winner's pedal less, but when they pedal....look out!

Actually, given Lucy's racing goals next spring (crits and RRs), I'd say she can safely ignore the left side of her MP/duration curve. I wonder how much our training is influenced by what we are naturally good at. While I haven't looked at the PM files of women's Cat4/3 crits and RRs (and maybe someone who has studied these files can chime in), I'm guessing that her 5sec power is good enough today to win lots of field sprints in the races she will be entering next year, without any further training whatsoever. That's not true of the right side of her MP/duration curve. Sprint training takes time and energy. It is a use of her scarce resource -- training time. My recommendation for allocation of training time to L7s at this point in time = zero!

Hi RD - well as you suggest, having this potentially great sprint won't mean a thing if I'm finishing 20 minutes behind the pack! Which, would more than likely be the case at present

I suspect many people's training is highly influenced by their natural talents. I am already finding that doing repeatedly doing sprints for max power is far less taxing on me mentally than L4's. I don't need to 'psyche' myself up or be highly motivated to do sprints, it just comes naturally.

I would like to see PM files for cat 3-4 races, all the ones I've seen are from men's events.

Back to the right side of the MP curve - I've built my entire focus now on L4's - period. We talked about this and I've taken it quite seriously. Last week (from wed night onward, when I got the pm), I did 2 hours of L4's - including some in all 4 training days. That's it, everything was built around that.

I'm not going to do any kind of dedicated L7 program now. Once I've completed my L4 work for a given workout, I think doing a few sprints at the end - to learn the position, etc is probably fine and does add an element of novelty. As I recall, this is similar to what you do - L7 work at the end once you've completed your threshold/vo2max/awc intervals.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Once I've completed my L4 work for a given workout, I think doing a few sprints at the end - to learn the position, etc is probably fine and does add an element of novelty. As I recall, this is similar to what you do - L7 work at the end once you've completed your threshold/vo2max/awc intervals.

Yes, that is what I do when my goal is "L7 maintenance." As I near a target RR or crit, I move L7s up to a higher priority and I do them at the beginning of my workout when I'm fresh. For example, at this point I don't have a crit or RR scheduled until the end of January (3.5 months). So, L7s have dropped to the bottom of the priority scale and I will do 3-4 of them in the last 10mins of my long rides, for maintenance purposes only. My focus now is exactly what yours is -- raising my FTP as much as possible before the racing season begins. So, it's lots and lots of L4s and L5s. For a road cyclist, a high FTP (and a light body weight) sets up everything else. You race offensively, not defensively. You're not fearing attacks, you're planning attacks. Racing becomes fun!

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

Yes, that is what I do when my goal is "L7 maintenance." As I near a target RR or crit, I move L7s up to a higher priority and I do them at the beginning of my workout when I'm fresh. For example, at this point I don't have a crit or RR scheduled until the end of January (3.5 months). So, L7s have dropped to the bottom of the priority scale and I will do 3-4 of them in the last 10mins of my long rides, for maintenance purposes only. My focus now is exactly what yours is -- raising my FTP as much as possible before the racing season begins. So, it's lots and lots of L4s and L5s. For a road cyclist, a high FTP (and a light body weight) sets up everything else. You race offensively, not defensively. You're not fearing attacks, you're planning attacks. Racing becomes fun!

From what you've said, my planned approach and priorities will be fine. Even doing the L7's at the end benefits me as I still have everything to learn about aero positioning, gearing, techniques, etc about sprinting.

Planning attacks - eh, well it sounds like fun - when I get there that is!

I imagine you'll do quite well having 3.5 months to prepare. Maybe some of the 4 W/kg guys have slowed down?

Out of curiousity RD, what does your power profile look like? I'm guessing it is much more along the lines of a classic TT'er

 

[RapDaddyo]

I imagine you'll do quite well having 3.5 months to prepare. Maybe some of the 4 W/kg guys have slowed down?

Not a chance. Even at my age, they never come back to you. You have to go out and get them.

Out of curiousity RD, what does your power profile look like? I'm guessing it is much more along the lines of a classic TT'er

I have a weak sprint (~14 w/kg), a moderate AWC (~321), a fair 5min power (~5 w/kg) and a fair FTP (~4 w/kg). I think my power profile will flatten further as I become more fit because I consider my right side to be still relatively untrained. I don't know how much I can raise it, but I also plan to lose some weight.