KING HUBS -- LOUDEST ON THE MARKET?????

[Nicholas]

Jobst Brandt writes:

> ...Noise is a gratuitous error in design, the silent, cheap, and durable ratchet having been
> invented long ago...

Is the click of each ratchet tooth actually louder, or simply more frequent? To my ear, it's the
latter. The sound is an acquired taste, at best, and I just keep pedaling.

> ...I don't want to pay money for such trivia.

More important: Chris King Cycle Group appears to be one of the more environmentally and socially
responsible companies around. There's something to be said for a company that designs and
manufactures its products in house, and which assumes responsibility for both the longevity of its
product, and the environmental impact of its manufacturing byproducts. Good customer service, too.

http://www.chrisking.com/company/comp_index.html

Nicholas Grieco

 

[Gocycle]

Scares the Bears away in the woods. "David L. Johnson >" <David L. Johnson
<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 10 Mar 2003 16:26:41 -0500, timothy wrote:
>
> > I just got my first pair of king hubs, and the rear is probably the loudest I have EVER heard.
> > King tech said "this is normal -- it's the 72 engagement teeth) --
>
> They do make a racket...
> >
> > anyone figured out how to quiet them down? Or is it just impossible to sneak up on anyone now?
>
> Not impossible. Just don't coast. I would also advise against coasting when passing a horse or
> other large, easily spooked animal.
>
> --
>
> David L. Johnson
>
> __o | If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a _`\(,_ | conclusion. --
> George Bernard Shaw (_)/ (_) |

 

[Scic]

>From: [email protected]

>I thought Campy hubs were loud also?

It's the first thing I noticed on my new bike with Campy 10s hub. Not just loud, but a harsh, cheap
sounding click as well. Quite unlike a Shimano hub which sounds like a good fly reel. Is it easy to
get into the guts of it and silence it? Why are MTB hubs silent? Mine are.

Sig Chicago

 

[Jobst Brandt]

Nicholas Grieco writes:

>> Noise is a gratuitous error in design, the silent, cheap, and durable ratchet having been
>> invented long ago...

> Is the click of each ratchet tooth actually louder, or simply more frequent? To my ear, it's the
> latter. The sound is an acquired taste, at best, and I just keep pedaling.

Well, I should qualify that statement. The reason for all these "new" freewheel ratchets is that the
sprocket bodies are being made of aluminum to save weight. Aluminum is insufficiently strong to have
a conventional ratchet inside the sprocket carrier so all sorts of ratchets with more strength are
being tried, some having no advantage.

The problem with all this is that a sprocket carrier of aluminum is also too weak to carry sprockets
that dig into the splined body up to failure. OH! Why didn't someone test this or at least make a
calculation? This whole gram shaving at great cost is so stupid, it reminds me of the drillium craze
of the 1970's. Everything was drilled full of holes, even things that could not work that way.

>> I don't want to pay money for such trivia.

> More important: Chris King Cycle Group appears to be one of the more environmentally and socially
> responsible companies around. There's something to be said for a company that designs and
> manufactures its products in house, and which assumes responsibility for both the longevity of its
> product, and the environmental impact of its manufacturing byproducts.

What you mean "designs its products in house" how else do you design products? And what is "the
environmental impact of its manufacturing byproducts?"

> http://www.chrisking.com/company/comp_index.html

I think you got overwhelmed by the hype on that web site:

"This two building facility was entirely custom designed and built to support all of our
manufacturing processes (we do everything in house) as well as our philosophies of work place
design and near fanatic environmental consciousness."

I guess that means they have an indoor toilet. To call this philosophy is a stretch of the term.
Webster's sees it otherwise:

"(1) : all learning exclusive of technical precepts and practical arts (2) : the sciences and
liberal arts exclusive of medicine, law, and theology <a doctor of philosophy>"

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA

 

[Qui Si Parla Ca]

belij-<< I thought Campy hubs were loud also?

Not to my ear, not like Hugi or CK, but I don't think the Ck sound is a 'problem'.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[Qui Si Parla Ca]

scic-<< Quite unlike a Shimano hub which sounds like a good fly reel. Is it easy to get into the
guts of it and silence it?

If it's 'silent' then it may not do it's job. You can open it up and add a light layer of grease to
the pawl teeth but if it makes noise it is doing it's job.

<< Why are MTB hubs silent? Mine are.

Lots of gook on the pawls that may make one stick down and then break the other? That will be an
interseting ride-

Also two pawls rather than the Campagnolo's three-

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[Tauras]

I have a Hadley rear hub, LOUD is what it is and can compete with any CK for sounding off, at least
no need to ring the bell when coasting downhill

Tauras http://www.slonet.org/~tsulaiti/surfreport/

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> belij-<< I thought Campy hubs were loud also?
>
> Not to my ear, not like Hugi or CK, but I don't think the Ck sound is a 'problem'.
>
>
>
>
> Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
> (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1
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[M-Gineering Imp]

Tauras wrote:
>
> I have a Hadley rear hub, LOUD is what it is and can compete with any CK for sounding off,

if you want loud, you don't need much more than an empty shoepolish tin, a rubber band and a
clothespin. Saves $$$too
--
Marten

 

[Tauras]

Actually scored the hub on a sweet D-521 rim w/ brass nipples with 2.0 SG SS spokes for under 100$
new, can't let deals like that go buy

Tauras http://www.slonet.org/~tsulaiti/surfreport/

"M-Gineering import & framebouw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tauras wrote:
> >
> > I have a Hadley rear hub, LOUD is what it is and can compete with any CK
for
> > sounding off,
>
> if you want loud, you don't need much more than an empty shoepolish tin, a rubber band and a
> clothespin. Saves $$$too
> --
> Marten

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1
Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

 

[Scic]

>From: [email protected]

<< Why are MTB hubs silent? Mine are.

>Lots of gook on the pawls that may make one stick down and then break the
other? That will be an interseting ride-

I shouldn't have said silent...just very quiet, like a watch, much more so than the road hubs.
Ambient noise prevents me from hearing it when riding, unlike the road hubs.

.>Also two pawls rather than the Campagnolo's three-

So that accounts for the louder clicks. I'm going to take one apart just for the learning
experience. But, like Jobst said, they can be silent and still do their job.

Sig Chicago

 

[Gary Smiley]

My dura-ace hub is not loud, but the ticking gets louder and softer - it undulates. Is this normal?

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

> bas-<< Get some American Classic hubs (140g front and 250g rear for disc!!) - they are awesome:
> Lighter, cheaper, and very, very well made.
>
> Or Campagnolo
>
> or shimano DuraAce-
>
> Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
> (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[Alan]

> Well, I should qualify that statement. The reason for all these "new" freewheel ratchets is that
> the sprocket bodies are being made of aluminum to save weight. Aluminum is insufficiently strong
> to have a conventional ratchet inside the sprocket carrier so all sorts of ratchets with more
> strength are being tried, some having no advantage.
>
The Chris King hub is capable of handling a torque load of over 800ft/lbs so surely it must have
some advantages. The instant engagement is beneficial for someone wanting to ratchet their way over
obstacles, logs, etc.

Has anyone compared the efficiency of rear hubs? I'd be curious to see how it compares to Shimano or
American Classic where the ratchet disengages and is near silent.

alan

 

[David L. Johnso]

On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 14:03:52 -0500, Scic wrote:

> I'm going to take one apart just for the learning experience.
> But, like Jobst said, they can be silent and still do their job.

I think he was referring to clutch mechanisms designed to be silent. But a true ratchet that is
silent is a ratchet that is fouled with something, and could easily fail.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | It is a scientifically proven fact that a mid life crisis can _`\(,_ | only be cured by
something racy and Italian. Bianchis and (_)/ (_) | Colnagos are a lot cheaper than Maserattis
and Ferraris. -- Glenn Davies

 

[Richard]

I never thought my Chorus hubs were particularly loud. However, my reason for choosing it is that it
is EXTREMEMLY easy to get to the guts of it, put on a layer of grease, re-assemble, and adjust!

[email protected] (Scic) wrote in news:20030313002545.06285.00000128@mb- bj.aol.com:

>>From: [email protected]
>
>>I thought Campy hubs were loud also?
>
> It's the first thing I noticed on my new bike with Campy 10s hub. Not just loud, but a harsh,
> cheap sounding click as well. Quite unlike a Shimano hub which sounds like a good fly reel. Is it
> easy to get into the guts of it and silence it?

 

[Jobst Brandt]

David L. Johnson writes:

>> I'm going to take one apart just for the learning experience. But, like Jobst said, they can be
>> silent and still do their job.

> I think he was referring to clutch mechanisms designed to be silent. But a true ratchet that is
> silent is a ratchet that is fouled with something, and could easily fail.

Not so. Since I still ride antique equipment, you cannot hear the freewheel even when I raise the
back end and give the rear wheel a spin with the pedals. I've been riding this kind of ratchet all
of my bicycling days, first by Regina and then Sun Tour, both with the same type of bifurcated large
pivot pawls, sprung by a single circumferential spring-wire. The advent of this pawl was the first
of many silent freewheels.

Before those, the Regina Gran Sport, with individual hair springs, could be made silent by
de-cambering the springs. This was a regular exercise before the 1970's.

What most engineers who design these things today don't realise, is that through elasticity of the
parts, only one facet or pawl carries the entire load for part of a rotation. A free body diagram
can make that unambiguously clear. For that reason Regina used a ratchet with 21 steps and two
diametrically displaced ratchets to give 42 clicks per revolution. The dual and triple pawl
engagement ultimately fails because its distributed load bearing relies on faultless zero clearance
bearing adjustment, something that is possibly true when new but not thereafter.

I suspect the "engineers" in the bicycle business are not engineers but always wanted to be a
bicycle mechanic and "now I are one," as they say. The public is the product test medium.

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA

 

[Jennifer Donlea]

On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 00:49:52 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>I've been riding this kind of ratchet all of my bicycling days, first by Regina and then Sun Tour,
>both with the same type of bifurcated large pivot pawls, sprung by a single circumferential
>spring-wire. The advent of this pawl was the first of many silent freewheels.
>
>Before those, the Regina Gran Sport, with individual hair springs, could be made silent by
>de-cambering the springs. This was a regular exercise before the 1970's.

I have witnessed a silent freewheel, a Shimano single-speed freewheel, which made me want to get rid
of the excess gears just for the peace and quiet!

I didn't understand from your description, though, what makes a ratchet so quiet. Is it that the
spring does not so forcefully push the pawl into the steps? Is this why de-cambering the springs
helped? Or is it something about the pawl design? And what is a bifurcated large pivot pawl and why
did that help conserve the silence?

Finally, is there a safe way to make a contemporary shimano freewheel or a contemporary freehub
silent? I want to sneak up on animals.

Thanks!!

Jennifer D

 

[David L. Johnso]

On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 19:49:52 -0500, jobst.brandt wrote:

> David L. Johnson writes:
>
>>> I'm going to take one apart just for the learning experience. But, like Jobst said, they can be
>>> silent and still do their job.
>
>> I think he was referring to clutch mechanisms designed to be silent. But a true ratchet that is
>> silent is a ratchet that is fouled with something, and could easily fail.
>
> Not so.

I ahd misunderstood what you said about the silent freewheel earlier.

> Since I still ride antique equipment, you cannot hear the freewheel even when I raise the back
> end and give the rear wheel a spin with the pedals. I've been riding this kind of ratchet all of
> my bicycling days, first by Regina and then Sun Tour,

I have also used a number of Regina freewheels, but only a few Sun Tours. I don't recall any being
silent, except for the one Regina I re-built, and that was not a total success.

both with the same
> type of bifurcated large pivot pawls, sprung by a single circumferential spring-wire.

this is the same design (with 3 pawls) now used by Campy. Mine is fairly quiet, but that is because
I used more grease than Campy put in at the factory.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | The trouble with the rat race is that even if you win you're _`\(,_ | still a rat. --Lilly
Tomlin (_)/ (_) |

 

[Tauras]

"Jennifer Donleavy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 00:49:52 GMT, [email protected] wrote: Finally, is there a safe
> way to make a contemporary shimano freewheel or a contemporary freehub silent? I want to sneak up
> on animals.
>
> Thanks!!
>
> Jennifer D

Keep pedaling and don't coast to get close and it it doesn't workout at least you're ready to blaze
out of there

Tauras http://www.slonet.org/~tsulaiti/surfreport/

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[Nicholas]

Jobst Brandt writes:

> ...The reason for all these "new" freewheel ratchets is that the sprocket bodies are being made
> of aluminum to save weight. Aluminum is insufficiently strong to have a conventional ratchet
> inside the sprocket carrier so all sorts of ratchets with more strength are being tried, some
> having no advantage.

Chris King offers a choice of drive shell: aluminum or stainless steel.
http://www.chrisking.com/specs/classic_specs.html

> The problem with all this is that a sprocket carrier of aluminum is also too weak to carry
> sprockets that dig into the splined body up to failure...

Interesting- that's a mode of failure which is new to me. Is this different for a cassette, as
opposed to a set of individual sprockets with spacers? Are the smaller sprockets more likely to
cause a problem than the larger?

> ...And what is "the environmental impact of its manufacturing byproducts?"

http://www.chrisking.com/pucks/index.html

> ...I guess that means they have an indoor toilet...

*chuckle!* And here's some more hype: http://www.chrisking.com/asiamfg/index.html

I respect that this manufacturer actively addresses social, ethical, and environmental
considerations in it's own business practice. Wouldn't mind seeing more companies make such
an effort.

Nicholas Grieco

 

[Qui Si Parla Ca]

scic-<< So that accounts for the louder clicks. I'm going to take one apart just for the learning
experience. But, like Jobst said, they can be silent and still do their job.

Good luck taking a shimano freehub apart, it can be done but you may not get it back together. As
for a genuine pawl hub, either freewheel or freehub being silent? Doubt that and it not be greased
up, which is a particularly bad idea.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"