Kloden gets ***** slapped !



Ava Marie

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From what I understand there is test but the method is difficult. The rider has to enhale some kind of gas (No Joke) and it has to be mesaured over time. I think that High Road said they were using it at training camp.
 

thunder

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Ava Marie said:
From what I understand there is test but the method is difficult. The rider has to enhale some kind of gas (No Joke) and it has to be mesaured over time. I think that High Road said they were using it at training camp.
yeah, it is not perfect, and has CO2 which reduces the performance over the subsequent days.

Cant just spring it on someone the day before a GT, as it will f up a chrono/prologue/TTT performance, and disadvantage them.

So it is flawed.

It also is not accurate enough to withstand scrutiny, margin of error too high.

There is another test tho, measuring age of cells.
 

Trev_S

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Jan 24, 2004
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I don't want to talk about the team of Priamo."

It is the last remark that upset CSF Navigare, referring to its rider, Matteo Priamo, who won stage 6 in the Giro.

So what did Klodi say in fact. "I don't want to talk about the team of Priamo"
I would think that there is nothing a lawyer could do against that statement. It's not as if Klodi said out in plain "CSF Navigare team are doping" he didn't even say that in his opinion they are doping".

So CSF Navigare are getting their knickers in a knot because Klodi doesn't want to talk about them??

Sure you can read it that he implied it, but he didn't say actually say anything.
 

fscyclist

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Ava Marie said:
From what I understand there is test but the method is difficult. The rider has to enhale some kind of gas (No Joke) and it has to be mesaured over time. I think that High Road said they were using it at training camp.
Yes...I believe they are researching a test using the inhalation of Carbon Monoxide before and after a race. Don't know the results or exact mechanism of the test, or if it would only detect recently transfused blood. Even if that test is validated, I think it would be very hard to implement as there are all kinds of ethical ramifications by making an individual inhale a toxic substance (even if it is a tiny, "insignificant" amount) as a condition of employment. There are other tests currently being researched, but again, none have been legally validated, and none are in use. I think developing a test that will stand up to legal scrutiny will prove to be very difficult, but I could be wrong. Looking at certain blood parameters certainly will give indications, but I can't see them withstanding scrutiny if they were challenged.
 

TheDarkLord

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fscyclist said:
Yes...I believe they are researching a test using the inhalation of Carbon Monoxide before and after a race. Don't know the results or exact mechanism of the test, or if it would only detect recently transfused blood. Even if that test is validated, I think it would be very hard to implement as there are all kinds of ethical ramifications by making an individual inhale a toxic substance (even if it is a tiny, "insignificant" amount) as a condition of employment. There are other tests currently being researched, but again, none have been legally validated, and none are in use. I think developing a test that will stand up to legal scrutiny will prove to be very difficult, but I could be wrong. Looking at certain blood parameters certainly will give indications, but I can't see them withstanding scrutiny if they were challenged.
Carbon monoxide?? That is lethal stuff which bonds to heamoglobin and renders it unable to carry oxygen. I don't think such a test will see the light of day.
 

Wayne666

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fscyclist said:
How would you prove it?
Exactly. The biopassport is suppose to be the mechanism that will prevent it, but until someone gets suspended do you really think riders aren't taking the risk?

Still no test for HgH, probably a few other hormones that are less sexy but still used.

So you have several options that are undetectable unless the police catch you, not to mention the limited window to detect most other drugs, so still somewhat low risk if willing to take the chance.
 

Eldron

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TheDarkLord said:
I assume that following a transfusion, the hematocrit level will have a spike. How long does it take for it to go back to normal levels? That would give a window of opportunity to catch the doper using a biological passport assuming that it is implemented properly without any corruption. I would imagine that age dating RBCs would be quite complicated.

I might be wrong - hey I'm a metallurgist not a doctor - but I don't think there will even be a spike when re-injecting your own blood unless it's been concentrated (spun a bit in a lab to concentrate the red blood corps).

My logic is that if you re-inject blood the concentration of rbc's stays the same there are just more of them due to the higher blood volume.

Ageing tests aside I don't think there will ever be a decent test for auto blood doping. The stored blood will be refrigerated so it'll age really slow anyway...

This is one of those "catch them with the equipment" rather than by test.

My 2c on the Kloden comments - I think it's being taken out of context - effectively he said the bigger teams had better internal controls than the smaller teams. Someone's making a mountain out of a mole hill here...
 

whiteboytrash

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Eldron said:
My 2c on the Kloden comments - I think it's being taken out of context - effectively he said the bigger teams had better internal controls than the smaller teams. Someone's making a mountain out of a mole hill here...

He said much the same yesterday. He re-clarified his statements saying this is what he meant. Now I thought Germans were always direct & to the point ?
 

Eldron

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whiteboytrash said:
He said much the same yesterday. He re-clarified his statements saying this is what he meant. Now I thought Germans were always direct & to the point ?

It's one of the things I love about grand tours - italians interviewing french riders in german, spanish journalists interviewing croatian riders in flemish etc...

The scene is set for some serious misinterpretations with interesting consequences.

In totally unrelated news - I'm loving the Giro - GC riders scrabbling for a few seconds at the end of a stage is what cycling is all about. I can't wait for the mountains....
 

fscyclist

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Wayne666 said:
Exactly. The biopassport is suppose to be the mechanism that will prevent it, but until someone gets suspended do you really think riders aren't taking the risk?

Still no test for HgH, probably a few other hormones that are less sexy but still used.

So you have several options that are undetectable unless the police catch you, not to mention the limited window to detect most other drugs, so still somewhat low risk if willing to take the chance.
I think WADA et al. are using the biopassport to target riders that look suspicious. I don't think you could use those results to convict a rider of a doping offense.

As long as riders (and their doctors) know what tests are being performed and how they are conducted, they will always have the upper hand.
 

Packeteer

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Nov 16, 2007
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Eldron said:
I might be wrong - hey I'm a metallurgist not a doctor - but I don't think there will even be a spike when re-injecting your own blood unless it's been concentrated (spun a bit in a lab to concentrate the red blood corps).

My logic is that if you re-inject blood the concentration of rbc's stays the same there are just more of them due to the higher blood volume.

Ageing tests aside I don't think there will ever be a decent test for auto blood doping. The stored blood will be refrigerated so it'll age really slow anyway...

This is one of those "catch them with the equipment" rather than by test.

My 2c on the Kloden comments - I think it's being taken out of context - effectively he said the bigger teams had better internal controls than the smaller teams. Someone's making a mountain out of a mole hill here...
Most people on these forums are argueing about doping that have no idea how it is done. You are mostly speculating on something you dont understand.

You can catch someone doping with their own blood because you can measure the level of reticulocytes vs. RBC count. If there are many mature RBC's and low reticiculocyte count that points to a tranfusion.

Also as far as taking straight EPO one way to get around the testing goes like this. You take EPO and your crit goes up. Before testing you inject saline into your blood thinning it out down to a normal crit level. You take the test and have a normal crit. Your body then passes out the extra water soon thereafter and you have high crit again.

Where there is a will there is a way. Anyone who thinks they are certain someone is cheating is wrong. Not to say everyone is cheating, i just mean that you can only be certain they ARE cheating. Unfortunatly you can never REALLY prove someone is clean.

We just have to watch and enjoy regardless.
 

fscyclist

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Packeteer said:
Most people on these forums are argueing about doping that have no idea how it is done. You are mostly speculating on something you dont understand.

You can catch someone doping with their own blood because you can measure the level of reticulocytes vs. RBC count. If there are many mature RBC's and low reticiculocyte count that points to a tranfusion.
Just curious, where does your understanding come from?

Reticulocyte index has never been used to find someone guilty of a doping offense. If I'm wrong, please correct me.
 

Packeteer

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fscyclist said:
Just curious, where does your understanding come from?

Reticulocyte index has never been used to find someone guilty of a doping offense. If I'm wrong, please correct me.
I dont know what evidence everyone who has been caught for doping has had used against them. I do know however that reticulocytes can be an idicator of doping although it would not surprise me if it cant be used in a court or arbitration. Just because someone s not convicted doesn't mean they didn't do it.

Most of my understanding comes from my experiance in bodybuilding from before i started as a cyclist. PED's are discussed fairly openly in the bodybuilding community. Once i got into cycling i was of course curious about how the cycling community viewed the drugs used in our sport.

I am not only a memeber of this forum but other forums dedicated to bodybuilding as well as forums dedicate to PED's exclusivly. Look online and you can find where people discuss openly the facts of how easy or difficult each drug is to use and not be caught with.

In my opinion doping is unpreventable. That may be the case but i also believe cycling is getting cleaner and cleaner. The big problem i see is when we go from a fairly even playing field of dopers to a future peleton where almost nobody dopes. At that point doping would give someone a huge advantage and i believe most of those future winners would be dopers. The cost benefit balance would shift towards doping being a benefit and would make it impossible for some to resist. This will lead to many champions being dopers and inevitably being caught.

The future looks pretty bleak to me but i hope that it can be solved. I wish i had the answer myself.
 

fscyclist

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Packeteer said:
I dont know what evidence everyone who has been caught for doping has had used against them. I do know however that reticulocytes can be an idicator of doping although it would not surprise me if it cant be used in a court or arbitration. Just because someone s not convicted doesn't mean they didn't do it.

Most of my understanding comes from my experiance in bodybuilding from before i started as a cyclist. PED's are discussed fairly openly in the bodybuilding community. Once i got into cycling i was of course curious about how the cycling community viewed the drugs used in our sport.

I am not only a memeber of this forum but other forums dedicated to bodybuilding as well as forums dedicate to PED's exclusivly. Look online and you can find where people discuss openly the facts of how easy or difficult each drug is to use and not be caught with.

In my opinion doping is unpreventable. That may be the case but i also believe cycling is getting cleaner and cleaner. The big problem i see is when we go from a fairly even playing field of dopers to a future peleton where almost nobody dopes. At that point doping would give someone a huge advantage and i believe most of those future winners would be dopers. The cost benefit balance would shift towards doping being a benefit and would make it impossible for some to resist. This will lead to many champions being dopers and inevitably being caught.

The future looks pretty bleak to me but i hope that it can be solved. I wish i had the answer myself.
Agree with your last post, but in the previous posts, you stated you could catch a doper with a retic count. It is certainly a marker, but not enough to definitively state someone is transfusing. Could it be used in arbitration as supporting evidence? I don't know - more of a legal question, but it would definetely have to be used in conjunction with more solid evidence.

Also, retic count won't help if someone is tranfusing with whole blood (in short term testing). I've still been unable to find out how Fuentes was transfusing, with whole blood or PRBCs. If anyone knows, please post. If you get a transfusion of PRBCs your retic count (%) will drop which would be a good marker of autologous tranfusion. However, if you receive whole blood the retic count will remain the same until your body supresses rbc production which would take days to weeks. And if you're using EPO, it won't drop at all. For someone transfusing for a certain special event or stage it would remain undetectable at the time of the race or shortly thereafter. Whole blood is rarely if ever used for transfusion purposes in medicine, but I am very curious to know if doping 'doctors' are using it for these purposes.

On another subject, I've noticed a lot of former bodybuilders who start cycling on this forum. Do you race? And if so, how do you fare? I raced for a long time, and I can guarantee you no one mistook me for a bodybuilder. Just wonder how all that muscle mass affects your performance.
 

Packeteer

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Nov 16, 2007
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fscyclist said:
Agree with your last post, but in the previous posts, you stated you could catch a doper with a retic count. It is certainly a marker, but not enough to definitively state someone is transfusing. Could it be used in arbitration as supporting evidence? I don't know - more of a legal question, but it would definetely have to be used in conjunction with more solid evidence.

Also, retic count won't help if someone is tranfusing with whole blood (in short term testing). I've still been unable to find out how Fuentes was transfusing, with whole blood or PRBCs. If anyone knows, please post. If you get a transfusion of PRBCs your retic count (%) will drop which would be a good marker of autologous tranfusion. However, if you receive whole blood the retic count will remain the same until your body supresses rbc production which would take days to weeks. And if you're using EPO, it won't drop at all. For someone transfusing for a certain special event or stage it would remain undetectable at the time of the race or shortly thereafter. Whole blood is rarely if ever used for transfusion purposes in medicine, but I am very curious to know if doping 'doctors' are using it for these purposes.

On another subject, I've noticed a lot of former bodybuilders who start cycling on this forum. Do you race? And if so, how do you fare? I raced for a long time, and I can guarantee you no one mistook me for a bodybuilder. Just wonder how all that muscle mass affects your performance.
As for the reticulocytes you are right that is more of a legal question if it can be used against someone. It can however be used by me and you to get a good guess if someone is doping.

I am also very curious what methods the doctors use, particularly Fuentes. I personally know much more about EPO and steroids/testosterone than i do about blood doping. Fuentes obviously got away with it from a testing perspective, he knew something we still dont. Not only do me, you, and all the admitted dopers i have discussed this with not know how he got away with it but all the anti doping agencies haven't seemed to figure it out yey. This is why i think its silly for people to assume Lance was clean. Ullrich didn't get caught but we still all know he doped however Lance and Jan are matters for a different discussion.

To me the facts are quite clear. Doping is widespread because it is so easy to pass the tests. 100% negative tests in the peleton does not mean everyone is clean unfortunatly.

I do race but I am actually not a big bodybuilder, i never competed as a bodybuilder. I was somewhat overweight as i got into cycling. At the time i was not cycling competativly, it was just for general fitness. I took up bodybuilding and filled out my thin frame that i was born with at the same time i worked off all the fat. When i was doing bodybuilding i never intended to get huge, just very well defined and keep my weight down. I ended up loving cycling more than bodybuilding so that is what i do now.

I currently race and am a pretty good climber. Learning how to keep my weight down and performance up has helped with my cycling. One thing i have noticed however is how rediculously skinny climbing specialists are. Competative bodybuilders are a lot like climbers. They want to get their fat levels down to rediculous levels while maintaining their muscle. It is very hard to get your fat down that low without losing a lot of strength. I can obviously confirm myself you can climb well without steroids. However it is a HUGE help to use them and sometimes i wonder.
 

TheDarkLord

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fscyclist said:
Whole blood is rarely if ever used for transfusion purposes in medicine, but I am very curious to know if doping 'doctors' are using it for these purposes.
So what do they do when they transfuse blood to anemic patients or during surgery? I'm talking of cases where donors donate blood shortly before it is transfused into the patient.
 

Packeteer

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TheDarkLord said:
So what do they do when they transfuse blood to anemic patients or during surgery? I'm talking of cases where donors donate blood shortly before it is transfused into the patient.
I am not a doctor but i am pretty sure this is rare. All the blood used in a hospital is screened for safety. I would guess it is very rare for them to take blood and not process and test it before use.
 

Crankyfeet

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Packeteer said:
I currently race and am a pretty good climber. Learning how to keep my weight down and performance up has helped with my cycling. One thing i have noticed however is how rediculously skinny climbing specialists are. Competative bodybuilders are a lot like climbers. They want to get their fat levels down to rediculous levels while maintaining their muscle. It is very hard to get your fat down that low without losing a lot of strength. I can obviously confirm myself you can climb well without steroids. However it is a HUGE help to use them and sometimes i wonder.
I have talked with another retired cyclist who has doped on steroids. He said that it made a huge difference as well. And once you feel that power and extra performance... it is very hard to race/perform without it.

He also mentioned that he got most of his info...and even sourced the steroids... from bodybuilding forums on the net.
 

fscyclist

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TheDarkLord said:
So what do they do when they transfuse blood to anemic patients or during surgery? I'm talking of cases where donors donate blood shortly before it is transfused into the patient.
That sort of case would be exceptionally rare in a modern medical setting. Recepients of blood (at least in the US) receive it from a monitored and highly controlled blood bank; there may be an exception or two out there, but it would be very rare.

Blood is separated into its different components to treat different conditions and avoid waste. As stated earlier, whole blood transfusions are exceedingly rare (in the US at least), but in the doping world it may be different. Don't know, but would like to find out.
 

Malkmus

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thunder said:
Ceramiche Panaria/CSF GROUP-Navigare are one of the dirtiest teams in the peloton, and that is not an easy quest.

Grillo over 50 crit last year
Richeze stanozolol

ad infinitum that dont get caught
Damn. Seriously, my team was considering bringing their doctor to the US during the offseason for some training advice. We should have done it because I would be flying by now.