Kloden gets ***** slapped !



fscyclist

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Jul 30, 2006
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Packeteer said:
As for the reticulocytes you are right that is more of a legal question if it can be used against someone. It can however be used by me and you to get a good guess if someone is doping.

I am also very curious what methods the doctors use, particularly Fuentes. I personally know much more about EPO and steroids/testosterone than i do about blood doping. Fuentes obviously got away with it from a testing perspective, he knew something we still dont. Not only do me, you, and all the admitted dopers i have discussed this with not know how he got away with it but all the anti doping agencies haven't seemed to figure it out yey. This is why i think its silly for people to assume Lance was clean. Ullrich didn't get caught but we still all know he doped however Lance and Jan are matters for a different discussion.

To me the facts are quite clear. Doping is widespread because it is so easy to pass the tests. 100% negative tests in the peleton does not mean everyone is clean unfortunatly.

I do race but I am actually not a big bodybuilder, i never competed as a bodybuilder. I was somewhat overweight as i got into cycling. At the time i was not cycling competativly, it was just for general fitness. I took up bodybuilding and filled out my thin frame that i was born with at the same time i worked off all the fat. When i was doing bodybuilding i never intended to get huge, just very well defined and keep my weight down. I ended up loving cycling more than bodybuilding so that is what i do now.

I currently race and am a pretty good climber. Learning how to keep my weight down and performance up has helped with my cycling. One thing i have noticed however is how rediculously skinny climbing specialists are. Competative bodybuilders are a lot like climbers. They want to get their fat levels down to rediculous levels while maintaining their muscle. It is very hard to get your fat down that low without losing a lot of strength. I can obviously confirm myself you can climb well without steroids. However it is a HUGE help to use them and sometimes i wonder.
I don't think Fuentes had any secret solutions. Autologous transfusions can't be detected with a validated, accurate, and 'legal' test. The people who got caught were performing homologous transfusions, which to me is crazy. Defeating the EPO test still appears to be very easy. I also think manipulating the parameters of the new 'blood passport' is going to be rather easy.

When I raced, there was a point where I would get too skinny. You knew it when you got there as you would start to lose power, feel fatigued and get sick easily. To me, that is where the drugs, especially steroids, have got to help. You can continue to lose fat while maintaining muscle mass and stamina. I never used drugs, but I certainly wonder what it would have been like to have them. I think they have to make a big difference in the top amateur ranks even with just a simple steroid plan; especially when you're racing from March to November.
 

Packeteer

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Nov 16, 2007
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fscyclist said:
I don't think Fuentes had any secret solutions. Autologous transfusions can't be detected with a validated, accurate, and 'legal' test. The people who got caught were performing homologous transfusions, which to me is crazy. Defeating the EPO test still appears to be very easy. I also think manipulating the parameters of the new 'blood passport' is going to be rather easy.

When I raced, there was a point where I would get too skinny. You knew it when you got there as you would start to lose power, feel fatigued and get sick easily. To me, that is where the drugs, especially steroids, have got to help. You can continue to lose fat while maintaining muscle mass and stamina. I never used drugs, but I certainly wonder what it would have been like to have them. I think they have to make a big difference in the top amateur ranks even with just a simple steroid plan; especially when you're racing from March to November.
Steroids are a huge benefit to recovery, in fact that is all they really do. Many bodybuilders hit the weights twice a day because their body recovers nearly fully in the few hours between sessions. Imagine if instead of being able to ride a century training ride 4-5 times a week you can ride 2 such training rides a day. Also include some heavy interval work in there and you can imagine how steroids help. Also consider how many local races often have a TT and a crit on the same day with some road races before and/or after.

I have considered steroid use but decided against it. In bodybuilding it is a level playing field but in amateur cycling i doubt many are doping. My main problem is that i do martial arts several times a week which leaves me too drained to ride a bike even just to go on a nice summer ride.

I wanted to justify it and take a low amount of steroids in order to simply participate in 2 sports at once, not have an edge in either. The problem with this is that it would make me doubt every victory i ever had. I would always wonder if it was the drugs winning or my hard work. It really lets me appreciate the circles of rationalization that goes through someone's head when they dope and i feel sorry for those that are simply under too much pressure to resist.

I can feel the pressure the drugs have and my job is not even on the line. I can only imagine how hard it would be to avoid taking drugs if i was a pro. I guess the obvious thing is that until the scandals got REALLY bad nobody even made a real effort to stop the doping.

As for the "Blood Passport" system i dont think it does anything. One of the tactics of using EPO goes like this. You are currently "on" EPO so your hemocrit is obviously too high. When it comes time for testing you simply put saline into your bloodstream right before testing. It doesn't take much and it lowers your crit for the moment. Your body expels the water soon after the testing and you are back to your high crit. This is not the only way people avoid it and it is in fact one of the most simple ways to pass a test. This does however show that just because someone's crit is "normal" does not mean they don't have lots of extra RBC's in their veins.
 

hawkeye87

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Feb 18, 2008
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Packeteer said:
As for the "Blood Passport" system i dont think it does anything. One of the tactics of using EPO goes like this. You are currently "on" EPO so your hemocrit is obviously too high. When it comes time for testing you simply put saline into your bloodstream right before testing. It doesn't take much and it lowers your crit for the moment. Your body expels the water soon after the testing and you are back to your high crit. This is not the only way people avoid it and it is in fact one of the most simple ways to pass a test. This does however show that just because someone's crit is "normal" does not mean they don't have lots of extra RBC's in their veins.
Add to the fact that even with a diluted system throwing off other tests, take Di Luca's 2007 Giro case, the authorities cannot make a unusually low result in something stick in arbitration or court. That makes the odds even more stacked against those that would stop doping.
 

Packeteer

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fscyclist said:
You'd be surprised...
I guess it depends on the what level of racing. I doubt there is a whole lot in cat 4-5 but im sure it does exist even there. I am certain in 1-2 its probably all over.
 

whiteboytrash

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Mar 9, 2005
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I have considered steroid use but decided against it. In bodybuilding it is a level playing field but in amateur cycling i doubt many are doping. My main problem is that i do martial arts several times a week which leaves me too drained to ride a bike even just to go on a nice summer ride.

Jesus mate you are allowed to live a life outside of cycling, pretending to be Ralph Macchio and posting to internet forums....! like you can talk to women if you like....
 

Packeteer

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Nov 16, 2007
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whiteboytrash said:
Jesus mate you are allowed to live a life outside of cycling, pretending to be Ralph Macchio and posting to internet forums....! like you can talk to women if you like....
I do live a life outside cycling and that is one of the problems. I am often drained after riding hard and long. I dont just ride for racing either. I enjoy all day rides just for fun.

I also find that my sex drive plummets after hard riding. When you are "on" steroids you have limitless sex drive even after hard training. That to me would be a benefit.

I didn't really ever seriously consider steroids but i think thoughts about them creep into almost everyone's mind at some point when they race. Wanting to cheat is a pretty basic human thing. Just because someone is tempted doesn;t mean they do anything wrong. I just wanted to point out how i can appreciate the thought process of those who do cheat as i also know people who have and even currently do dope in cycling.