Knee issure returned

[Coyoteboy]

You may remember my post about the knee injury I had a few weeks ago. I
rested for a full 2 weeks until i felt no more problems, then started with
light exercise. All went well, but I raised my seat height further as it
still felt a little low. I can raise it over 50mm without my hips rocking,
but I only raised it 10-12mm. I noticed even more ease in maintaining speed
and it felt much easier, but this time the knee went wrong again about 3/4
into the 18 miles. I also feel like im bending over too much, maybe a
taller stem might do the job. I'm going to switch over to my old rigid
frame and see if its different geom helps.

I've not managed to get to see a physio yet, i was hoping to fix the bike
issue to see if it was bike caused so i left it a while - will be booking
in with the NHS one soon.

Just thought I'd update those who have helped so far.

--
J
__________________________________________
http://www.jbuckle.homeip.net << My personal site
http://www.aoskc.com << Ainsdale Kitesurf Club

 

[Rob Morley]

In article <[email protected]>, Coyoteboy
[email protected] says...
> You may remember my post about the knee injury I had a few weeks ago. I
> rested for a full 2 weeks until i felt no more problems, then started with
> light exercise. All went well, but I raised my seat height further as it
> still felt a little low. I can raise it over 50mm without my hips rocking,
> but I only raised it 10-12mm. I noticed even more ease in maintaining speed
> and it felt much easier, but this time the knee went wrong again about 3/4
> into the 18 miles. I also feel like im bending over too much, maybe a
> taller stem might do the job. I'm going to switch over to my old rigid
> frame and see if its different geom helps.
>
I can't remember if you're using cleats - if you are look very carefully
at how they're adjusted, and whether you need something with more float.

 

[Nick Maclaren]

In article <[email protected]>,
Coyoteboy <[email protected]> writes:
|>
|> You may remember my post about the knee injury I had a few weeks ago. I
|> rested for a full 2 weeks until i felt no more problems, then started with
|> light exercise. All went well, but I raised my seat height further as it
|> still felt a little low. I can raise it over 50mm without my hips rocking,
|> but I only raised it 10-12mm. I noticed even more ease in maintaining speed
|> and it felt much easier, but this time the knee went wrong again about 3/4
|> into the 18 miles. I also feel like im bending over too much, maybe a
|> taller stem might do the job. I'm going to switch over to my old rigid
|> frame and see if its different geom helps.

The reason that almost all modern UK bicycles have such small frames
and are ridden with very low saddles relative to 50 years back (and
today, in Holland and Denmark) is that the deeper the crouch, the
harder it is to straighten your legs. But, if you have certain
(common) kinds of knee injury you need to keep them MUCH straighter
than a semi-crouch permits. In order to do so, you may need to
ankle - but DON'T start that without a physiotherapist's advice if
your knees are causing trouble.

That is one of the two reasons I ride upright. I am 6'2" and ride with
the saddle 41" from the pedals, and my hands 46" above the ground and
6" back from the stem. I doubt that you would need that


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

 

[Coyoteboy]

Rob Morley proclaimed to uk.rec.cycling ...

> I can't remember if you're using cleats - if you are look very carefully
> at how they're adjusted, and whether you need something with more float.

I'm using Onza cleats - essentially the same as the very common shimano MTB
cleats. I was wondering if they might be worn (never changed them) but they
don't "look" worn - not that that's very scientific! They have reasonable
float, foot feels fairly free to move before I clip-out.

--
J
__________________________________________
http://www.jbuckle.homeip.net << My personal site
http://www.aoskc.com << Ainsdale Kitesurf Club

 

[naked_draughtsman]

"Coyoteboy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> Rob Morley proclaimed to uk.rec.cycling ...
>
>> I can't remember if you're using cleats - if you are look very carefully
>> at how they're adjusted, and whether you need something with more float.
>
> I'm using Onza cleats - essentially the same as the very common shimano
> MTB
> cleats. I was wondering if they might be worn (never changed them) but
> they
> don't "look" worn - not that that's very scientific! They have reasonable
> float, foot feels fairly free to move before I clip-out.

I only get a bit of backache from bending on my bike, but I have a 'high'
stem which probably helps (it's not low anyway). Something's started giving
me butt cheek ache now but I think it's because I've had a week off and one
too many croissants.

Just wondering, how long have you been using cleats? Your knees aren't
complaining because you're pulling up as well as pushing?
--
peter

Cheap train tickets database
http://www.petereverett.co.uk/tickets/

Email sent to this address is generally deleted upon arrival
Visit website if you want to contact me

 

[CoyoteBoy]

On 22 Apr, 18:59, "naked_draughtsman" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> "Coyoteboy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news[email protected]...
>
> > Rob Morley proclaimed to uk.rec.cycling ...
>
> >> I can't remember if you're using cleats - if you are look very carefully
> >> at how they're adjusted, and whether you need something with more float.
>
> > I'm using Onza cleats - essentially the same as the very common shimano
> > MTB
> > cleats. I was wondering if they might be worn (never changed them) but
> > they
> > don't "look" worn - not that that's very scientific! They have reasonable
> > float, foot feels fairly free to move before I clip-out.
>
> I only get a bit of backache from bending on my bike, but I have a 'high'
> stem which probably helps (it's not low anyway). Something's started giving
> me butt cheek ache now but I think it's because I've had a week off and one
> too many croissants.
>
> Just wondering, how long have you been using cleats? Your knees aren't
> complaining because you're pulling up as well as pushing?
> --
> peter
>
> Cheap train tickets databasehttp://www.petereverett.co.uk/tickets/
>
> Email sent to this address is generally deleted upon arrival
> Visit website if you want to contact me


Been using cleats for many years (off and on) but youre right, pulling
up is what seems to cause the problem primarily - if I ride without
pulling up I last a lot longer without the pain.

All that said...
I changed to my old larger and more upright MTB frame, but also a
rigid instead of full sus. Spent hours last night swapping in and out
several BBs as i forgot what size was required for the frame, and
ended up not having the front mech fitted so stuck in top ring. Raised
the seat higher than it is on the full sus (relative to BB) and set
off to work this morning.

Well I got here with slight outer knee pain on the other knee but
nothing more than a twinge. Made it to the office a full 15 minutes!
quicker (over 17-18 miles) and felt as fresh as a daisy! Wow!

 

[CoyoteBoy]

Further to my two earlier posts on getting sore knees I took the
advice on board and had a good long play with my setup. I found that I
had the bike set up as per the "best fit" suggestions yet I was still
getting knee issues, even on my fully rigid bike.

After snapping the saddle clamp bolt twice in 1 month, on a 25mm
layback post, I came to the conclusion that maybe I need to either a)
change my frame or b) try some different positions that dont fit
"normal ideals" - i tend not to be normal anyway So I pushed the
saddle forward to mid-rail position and then had to raise it about 1"
to feel comfortable again.

This appears to have cured the knee problems - I can feel them hint
that they are beginning to return when I really push a tall gear but
otherwise the pain has gone. Now my averages are notching up by about
1mph per week over ~18 miles and im feeling very happy with myself!

 

[Nick Maclaren]

In article <[email protected]>,
CoyoteBoy <[email protected]> writes:
|>
|> Further to my two earlier posts on getting sore knees I took the
|> advice on board and had a good long play with my setup. I found that I
|> had the bike set up as per the "best fit" suggestions yet I was still
|> getting knee issues, even on my fully rigid bike.

As I said, the modern "best fit" suggestions are all derived from
the ones designed for racers, and dedicated ones at that. The
traditional ones for more normal humans gave much higher saddle
positions (typically 1-4" higher) - but were often for very different
riding positions and styles and so you can't simply copy the saddle
height recommendations in isolation.

|> After snapping the saddle clamp bolt twice in 1 month, on a 25mm
|> layback post, I came to the conclusion that maybe I need to either a)
|> change my frame or b) try some different positions that dont fit
|> "normal ideals" - i tend not to be normal anyway So I pushed the
|> saddle forward to mid-rail position and then had to raise it about 1"
|> to feel comfortable again.

Those are VERY typical symptoms of a saddle that is too low. You
were almost certainly bum-shoving in an unconscious attempt to get
more legroom, and stressing the bolt. But you haven't said how LOW
your shoulders are, because that makes a big difference to how high
a saddle should be.

Yes, seriously. Put a saddle right up while riding **** over ***,
and most people will immediately damage a hamstring. Do it while
upright and they won't. Hamstrings stretch, but not quickly. An
upright rider should typically have a saddle 1-2" higher than a
croucher, and that's ignoring ankling. Most people are intermediate.

|> This appears to have cured the knee problems - I can feel them hint
|> that they are beginning to return when I really push a tall gear but
|> otherwise the pain has gone. Now my averages are notching up by about
|> 1mph per week over ~18 miles and im feeling very happy with myself!

My wife's were also improved by raising the saddle 1". I have told
her to wait a month and then try another 1/2", but she may not take
any notice!


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

 

[CoyoteBoy]

On 2 May, 08:55, [email protected] (Nick Maclaren) wrote:
> In article
>
> Those are VERY typical symptoms of a saddle that is too low. You
> were almost certainly bum-shoving in an unconscious attempt to get
> more legroom, and stressing the bolt. But you haven't said how LOW
> your shoulders are, because that makes a big difference to how high
> a saddle should be.

Yes, I think I was bum-shoving (love that term) as I often found my
shorts being pulled down and having to hike them back up again. This
week I havent had that.

> Yes, seriously. Put a saddle right up while riding **** over ***,
> and most people will immediately damage a hamstring. Do it while
> upright and they won't. Hamstrings stretch, but not quickly. An
> upright rider should typically have a saddle 1-2" higher than a
> croucher, and that's ignoring ankling. Most people are intermediate.
>

I'm fairly flattened out now - I carry a ~20lb rucksack on my back too
and I now start to feel much more pressure on my arms. I'm also
noticing my extra fat around the lower abs region is starting to chafe
- not a good sign, nor pretty lol.

> My wife's were also improved by raising the saddle 1". I have told
> her to wait a month and then try another 1/2", but she may not take
> any notice!

It is addictive lol.

Cheers for your info!

 

[Nick Maclaren]

In article <[email protected]>,
CoyoteBoy <[email protected]> writes:
|>
|> Yes, I think I was bum-shoving (love that term) as I often found my
|> shorts being pulled down and having to hike them back up again. This
|> week I havent had that.

It's a rowing term

|> I'm fairly flattened out now - I carry a ~20lb rucksack on my back too
|> and I now start to feel much more pressure on my arms. I'm also
|> noticing my extra fat around the lower abs region is starting to chafe
|> - not a good sign, nor pretty lol.

Cripes. That would give me hellish problems in other ways. Anyway,
watch out for your hamstrings.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

 

[Peter Clinch]

CoyoteBoy wrote:

> I'm fairly flattened out now - I carry a ~20lb rucksack on my back too

Dumb question time, but why the 20 lb pack?

The only reason not to mount stuff on the frame is if you're doing
particularly balancey and daft stuff, but if you /are/ doing that then
an extra 20 lbs makes little sesne in any case.

If you can get that 20 lbs onto the bike directly rather than via you
then your cycling will get /much/ more comfortable. That's quite a lot
of stuff!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Anthony Campbell]

On 2007-05-02, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
> CoyoteBoy wrote:
>
>> I'm fairly flattened out now - I carry a ~20lb rucksack on my back too
>
> Dumb question time, but why the 20 lb pack?
>
> The only reason not to mount stuff on the frame is if you're doing
> particularly balancey and daft stuff, but if you /are/ doing that then
> an extra 20 lbs makes little sesne in any case.
>
> If you can get that 20 lbs onto the bike directly rather than via you
> then your cycling will get /much/ more comfortable. That's quite a lot
> of stuff!
>
> Pete.

Riding with a backpack seems to be the fashion at present. I think this
is a retrograde trend; I would never use a backpack myself if I could
possibly help it, and so far I always have helped it.

--
Anthony Campbell - [email protected]
Microsoft-free zone - Using Linux Gnu-Debian
http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews,
on-line books and sceptical articles)

 

[Peter Clinch]

Anthony Campbell wrote:

> Riding with a backpack seems to be the fashion at present. I think this
> is a retrograde trend; I would never use a backpack myself if I could
> possibly help it, and so far I always have helped it.

There are times when it makes sense (as has been pointed out to me on at
least one occasion where I've said otherwise), but when the pack has ~20
lbs in is, IMHO, not one of those times! That's what I'd be carrying
for a well equipped winter mountaineering day, never mind a run on the bike!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Coyoteboy]

Peter Clinch proclaimed to uk.rec.cycling ...


> Anthony Campbell wrote:
>
>> Riding with a backpack seems to be the fashion at present. I think this
>> is a retrograde trend; I would never use a backpack myself if I could
>> possibly help it, and so far I always have helped it.
>
> There are times when it makes sense (as has been pointed out to me on at
> least one occasion where I've said otherwise), but when the pack has ~20
> lbs in is, IMHO, not one of those times! That's what I'd be carrying
> for a well equipped winter mountaineering day, never mind a run on the
> bike!

Its nothing to do with fashion for me, its convenience, it means i dont have
to keep swapping things in and out of bags/panniers every day because I
only ride 3 days a week, the rest i take the train or car. I never find it
a problem TBH, its heavy on the arms but when set up right that can be
minimised. When commuting it doesnt really degrade stability, in fact it
helps in gusty wind situations. 20lbs is light in comparison with what I
used to carry to work, I often used to carry large chunks of steel to and
fro and the weight could go up to 40+ lol. But thats only 25% of my body
mass and I barely notice it until i hand it to someone else to hold

 

[Peter Clinch]

Coyoteboy wrote:

> Its nothing to do with fashion for me, its convenience, it means i dont have
> to keep swapping things in and out of bags/panniers every day because I
> only ride 3 days a week, the rest i take the train or car.

So why not take a pannier in the train or car? Ortlieb do a very
neat rucksack conversion that clips onto any of theirs in a few
seconds, and their bags come with shoulder straps too. Or just
bungee the pack to a carrier.

> I never find it a problem TBH

"A problem" and "a major comfort negative" aren't necessarily the
same thing depending on your POV, but 20 lbs on your back when you
don't need it there 3 times a week (6, as it's 2 ways) is just a
load of relatively uncomfortable stuff you simply don't have to do.

> its heavy on the arms but when set up right that can be
> minimised. When commuting it doesnt really degrade stability

No, but it does sit there and just weigh 20 lbs... I implore you
to try it with the bike taking the weight for a change, especially
on a nice hot day. I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised.
Especially if you ask your arms and back afterwards!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[CoyoteBoy]

On 2 May, 20:37, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:

> No, but it does sit there and just weigh 20 lbs... I implore you
> to try it with the bike taking the weight for a change, especially
> on a nice hot day. I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised.
> Especially if you ask your arms and back afterwards!
>
> Pete.

I'm seeing your point, my next door neighbour has some sitting around
I can try - might be an eye opener I sort of see it like its giving
me an advantage when i remove the backpack and ride without