Kona=Hype In Writing

Discussion in 'Mountain Bikes' started by Jd, Jan 23, 2003.

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  1. Jd

    Jd Guest

    Thanks for this link Slacker. The mere fact that they see things in black and white, to include
    lameo kona's hype-driven fantasy marketing to the feeble masses.

    http://www.mtbcomprador.com/pa/english/

    Found under "Bogus Marketing":

    "To be fair, we must note that many companies make claims for no suspension bob and 100% efficiency.
    But without question, the most egregious example of bogus marketing we have ever seen regarding
    bicycle rear suspensions comes from Kona, in their ads for the King Kikapu and Mokomoko [see page 7,
    Mountain Bike Action, May 2001].

    The ad claims, "SHOCK FUNCTION IS AFFECTED BY WEIGHT, FORCE AND GRAVITY – NOT BY PEDALLING_". One
    can tell that this was not written by anyone with any significant technical knowledge. An object's
    "WEIGHT" is a measure of the attractive "FORCE" between the earth and that object due to "GRAVITY".
    Your guess is as good as ours. (The language here is very reminiscent of those VW commercials where
    they claim that they get "a maxim amount of volume in a minimum amount of space" – !?!?)

    Humorous wording aside, the phrase does claim no pedal activation of the shock, so we have a more
    serious issue to consider. Since the rear pivot is on the seat stay in these designs (more on this
    later) we know that the designs are essentially mono-pivots under pedaling, with the upper links
    acting as suspension tuning. We have proven directly that no mono-pivot is completely non-reactive
    to pedaling, so we know immediately that Kona the claim is certainly not true. For example, there
    are no qualifications for gearing.

    The ad goes on to claim, "SHOCK IS MOUNTED IN LINE WITH SEAT TUBE ALLOWING SMOOTH SHOCK FUNCTION AND
    SUPERIOR SHOCK RESPONSIVENESS_". By "IN LINE", we suppose that they mean parallel to the seat tube.
    But there are an infinity of other directions that the shock could be mounted that would allow the
    same "SMOOTH" shock function (witness the Ventana Marble Peaks, and Rocky Mountains), so we ask,
    "What is the point?" We also ask, "‘SUPERIOR' compared to what?" Not to any of the competing designs
    we are aware of anyway. Does Kona believe that a shock mounted out of plane to the frame is viable
    enough to merit a comparison?

    Lastly, the ad claims that, "REAR STAY PIVOT MOUNTED ON SEATSTAY INSTEAD OF CHAINSTAY SO ALSO NOT
    AFFECTED BY PEDALING FORCES_". Here is the most abject bit of nonsense. What is not "AFFECTED"?
    Clearly the reader is to believe it is the suspension. Again, the "SEATSTAY" pivot essentially makes
    these bikes mono-pivots (upper link suspension tuning aside). This fact, in and of itself, is
    irrelevant to the degree with which the design is "AFFECTED" by pedaling forces.

    Is this a deliberate attempt to mislead potential customers or just a case of extreme ignorance? We
    leave the answer to the readers. We simply conclude that when it comes to suspension ad mumbo-jumbo,
    Kona is King."

    I'd like to flip a virtual middle finger now to all of the dingwads who tout how great kona is
    without any substance to back up their hype-fed false claims. Deception begins at marketing and ends
    in cut corners and crappy bikes.

    JD laughing hysterically
     
    Tags:


  2. JD wrote:
    > Thanks for this link Slacker. The mere fact that they see things in black and white, to include
    > lameo kona's hype-driven fantasy marketing to the feeble masses.
    >
    > http://www.mtbcomprador.com/pa/english/

    >snip<

    I do like this though:

    "Being currently unique in its ability to produce significantly variable curvature, the VPP concept
    is probably the most intriguing design out at the present time."

    Whether or not the blur or the spider XVP actually does what its supposed to is another story.

    Oh, and it might be a while before my blur test. People are buying the things like hotcakes, before
    they even get to the store, let alone are built up. Buying into hype that much is not cool. I'm
    willing to test stuff because it sounds sweet, but i'm not going to just throw money at the "next
    big thing".

    Jon "Commander" Bond anybody seen my Segway? I ordered it like a year ago...
     
  3. John Morgan

    John Morgan Guest

    "JD" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Thanks for this link Slacker. The mere fact that they see things in black and white, to include
    > lameo kona's hype-driven fantasy marketing to the feeble masses.
    >
    > http://www.mtbcomprador.com/pa/english/

    "This theory states that locating a mono-pivot pivot along the chain force line will eliminate
    suspension activation under pedaling. Most mono-pivot producers, including Santa Cruz, Marin, and
    Ellsworth's Aeon division produce bikes based on this theory. Some take this to mean with
    acceleration (Ellsworth) and some without (Santa Cruz). A notable exception is the Titus Loco Moto."

    Yay! My bike got mentioned in the section where they were disproving the theory of "Pivot at the
    Chain Line" ...and it happens to be the one that doesn't use it. I knew good ol' Titus wouldn't let
    me down...

    -John Morgan
    --
    To reply, please remove NOSPAM from the return address.
     
  4. Bill Wheeler

    Bill Wheeler Guest

    On 12 Dec 2002 22:21:17 -0800, [email protected] (JD) wrote:

    >Thanks for this link Slacker. The mere fact that they see things in black and white, to include
    >lameo kona's hype-driven fantasy marketing to the feeble masses.
    [snip hype]

    Take a close look at everything. It's not just Kona on the Hypewagon. Most everyone who mountain
    bikes, including me, are or have been taken in by hype. Whether it's mono pivots, disc brakes, bar
    ends, phat tyres, split seats, riser bars, suspensions.....27 friggin' gears!

    Lets face it were all riding on some hyped up BS.

    There's a need to get back to the basics, before Marketers and Corporations got into this and
    tweaked our minds.

    SS is a start.

    Peace, Bill(still affected by the hypemachine, but getting better)Wheeler. The mind serves properly
    as a window glass rather than as a reflector, that is, the mind should give an immediate view
    instead of an interpretation of the world.
    :-]
     
  5. scottieski

    scottieski Guest

    >I'd like to flip a virtual middle finger now to all of the dingwads who tout how great kona is
    >without any substance to back up their hype-fed false claims.

    I think owning a Kona and enjoying it is all the substance anyone needs to send that finger right
    back to you.

    >Deception begins at marketing..............

    Oh fuck off, like Bill said, every company hypes some type of so called technology on their bikes,
    but that's no reason to say that any one company has cut corners on design.
     
  6. Chris

    Chris Guest

    Yes, congratulations JD, you've enlightened us all. Who knew advertising was deceptive? Man, that
    sure sucks. Kona bikes must really be crap. Glad I bought my Murray when I did.

    Chris

    "JD" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Thanks for this link Slacker. The mere fact that they see things in black and white, to include
    > lameo kona's hype-driven fantasy marketing to the feeble masses.
    >
    > http://www.mtbcomprador.com/pa/english/
    >
    > Found under "Bogus Marketing":
    >
    > "To be fair, we must note that many companies make claims for no suspension bob and 100%
    > efficiency. But without question, the most egregious example of bogus marketing we have ever seen
    > regarding bicycle rear suspensions comes from Kona, in their ads for the King Kikapu and Mokomoko
    > [see page 7, Mountain Bike Action, May 2001].
    >
    > The ad claims, "SHOCK FUNCTION IS AFFECTED BY WEIGHT, FORCE AND GRAVITY - NOT BY PEDALLING_". One
    > can tell that this was not written by anyone with any significant technical knowledge. An
    > object's "WEIGHT" is a measure of the attractive "FORCE" between the earth and that object due to
    > "GRAVITY". Your guess is as good as ours. (The language here is very reminiscent of those VW
    > commercials where they claim that they get "a maxim amount of volume in a minimum amount of
    > space" - !?!?)
    >
    > Humorous wording aside, the phrase does claim no pedal activation of the shock, so we have a more
    > serious issue to consider. Since the rear pivot is on the seat stay in these designs (more on this
    > later) we know that the designs are essentially mono-pivots under pedaling, with the upper links
    > acting as suspension tuning. We have proven directly that no mono-pivot is completely non-reactive
    > to pedaling, so we know immediately that Kona the claim is certainly not true. For example, there
    > are no qualifications for gearing.
    >
    > The ad goes on to claim, "SHOCK IS MOUNTED IN LINE WITH SEAT TUBE ALLOWING SMOOTH SHOCK FUNCTION
    > AND SUPERIOR SHOCK RESPONSIVENESS_". By "IN LINE", we suppose that they mean parallel to the seat
    > tube. But there are an infinity of other directions that the shock could be mounted that would
    > allow the same "SMOOTH" shock function (witness the Ventana Marble Peaks, and Rocky Mountains), so
    > we ask, "What is the point?" We also ask, "'SUPERIOR' compared to what?" Not to any of the
    > competing designs we are aware of anyway. Does Kona believe that a shock mounted out of plane to
    > the frame is viable enough to merit a comparison?
    >
    > Lastly, the ad claims that, "REAR STAY PIVOT MOUNTED ON SEATSTAY INSTEAD OF CHAINSTAY SO ALSO NOT
    > AFFECTED BY PEDALING FORCES_". Here is the most abject bit of nonsense. What is not "AFFECTED"?
    > Clearly the reader is to believe it is the suspension. Again, the "SEATSTAY" pivot essentially
    > makes these bikes mono-pivots (upper link suspension tuning aside). This fact, in and of itself,
    > is irrelevant to the degree with which the design is "AFFECTED" by pedaling forces.
    >
    > Is this a deliberate attempt to mislead potential customers or just a case of extreme ignorance?
    > We leave the answer to the readers. We simply conclude that when it comes to suspension ad
    > mumbo-jumbo, Kona is King."
    >
    >
    > I'd like to flip a virtual middle finger now to all of the dingwads who tout how great kona is
    > without any substance to back up their hype-fed false claims. Deception begins at marketing and
    > ends in cut corners and crappy bikes.
    >
    > JD laughing hysterically
     
  7. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > On 12 Dec 2002 22:21:17 -0800, [email protected] (JD) wrote:
    >
    > >Thanks for this link Slacker. The mere fact that they see things in black and white, to include
    > >lameo kona's hype-driven fantasy marketing to the feeble masses.
    > [snip hype]
    >
    > Take a close look at everything. It's not just Kona on the Hypewagon. Most everyone who mountain
    > bikes, including me, are or have been taken in by hype. Whether it's mono pivots, disc brakes, bar
    > ends, phat tyres, split seats, riser bars, suspensions.....27 friggin' gears!
    >
    > Lets face it were all riding on some hyped up BS.
    >
    > There's a need to get back to the basics, before Marketers and Corporations got into this and
    > tweaked our minds.
    >

    That sounds suspiciously like a catch phrase thought up by marketers, Bill! :)
    --
    _________________________
    Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com
     
  8. Jd

    Jd Guest

    "Chrispy" <[email protected]> top posted
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Yes, congratulations JD, you've enlightened us all. Who knew advertising was deceptive? Man, that
    > sure sucks. Kona bikes must really be crap. Glad I bought my Murray when I did.

    Howzat hook taste?

    JD
     
  9. Martees

    Martees Guest

    "JD" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > "Chrispy" <[email protected]> top posted
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > Yes, congratulations JD, you've enlightened us all. Who knew
    advertising
    > > was deceptive? Man, that sure sucks. Kona bikes must really be crap.
    Glad
    > > I bought my Murray when I did.
    >
    > Howzat hook taste?
    >
    > JD

    You get an honorary cold one lifted for that one........

    Molson Ice ok?

    Marty
     
  10. Carla A-G

    Carla A-G Guest

    "Martees" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > You get an honorary cold one lifted for that one........
    >
    > Molson Ice ok?

    Send the case over this way...

    - CA-G

    Canadian Girls Kick Ass!
     
  11. Carla A-G

    Carla A-G Guest

    "Chris Phillipo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Sorry, you American's gotta drink the beer that brung ya!

    We have Ice here, and believe it or not, it sells for cheaper than the American sludge.

    - CA-G Yuengling still dominates in our house...

    Canadian Girls Kick Ass!
     
  12. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    "Carla A-G" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >We have Ice here, and believe it or not, it sells for cheaper than the American sludge.

    Penny, it's downright insulting that you'd compare American beer to sludge.

    After all, there are, I'm sure, sludge makers out there who are quite proud of their product...

    That said, though most of the "major brands" are swill, there are some smaller breweries turning out
    serviceable suds.

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  13. Sorni

    Sorni Guest

  14. Carla A-G

    Carla A-G Guest

    "Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Carla A-G" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >We have Ice here, and believe it or not, it sells for cheaper than the American sludge.
    >
    > Penny, it's downright insulting that you'd compare American beer to sludge.

    Actually, it was me who compared American beer to sludge, not Penny.

    > After all, there are, I'm sure, sludge makers out there who are quite proud of their product...

    No doubt.

    > That said, though most of the "major brands" are swill, there are some smaller breweries turning
    > out serviceable suds.

    I agree, that's why I like Yuengling from PA.

    - CA-G

    Canadian Girls Kick Ass!
     
  15. Penny S

    Penny S Guest

    "Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Carla A-G" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >We have Ice here, and believe it or not, it sells for cheaper than the American sludge.
    >
    > Penny, it's downright insulting that you'd compare American beer to sludge.

    Mark, your attributions are totally screwed up. That wastn' me. And to think I was just going to
    refer someone to your site...

    Penny

    > After all, there are, I'm sure, sludge makers out there who are quite proud of their product...
    >
    > That said, though most of the "major brands" are swill, there are some smaller breweries turning
    > out serviceable suds.
    >
    > Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  16. Shaun Rimmer

    Shaun Rimmer Guest

  17. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    "Carla A-G" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >> "Carla A-G" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >> >We have Ice here, and believe it or not, it sells for cheaper than the American sludge.
    >>
    >> Penny, it's downright insulting that you'd compare American beer to sludge.
    >
    >Actually, it was me who compared American beer to sludge, not Penny.

    Ack! I have NO idea how THAT happened. Must have been that sludge I was drinking!

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  18. Shaun Rimmer

    Shaun Rimmer Guest

    penny s <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > "Carla A-G" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > >We have Ice here, and believe it or not, it sells for cheaper than the American sludge.
    > >
    > > Penny, it's downright insulting that you'd compare American beer to sludge.
    >
    > Mark, your attributions are totally screwed up. That wastn' me. And to think I was just going to
    > refer someone to your site...

    Don't worry Penny - his bikes are solid, it's only himself that falls apart.

    Shaun aRe
     
  19. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    "Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    >Sorni <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:FmUL9.149355$%[email protected]...
    >>
    >> "Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]...
    >> > "Carla A-G" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> >
    >> > >We have Ice here, and believe it or not, it sells for cheaper than the American sludge.
    >>
    >> You got Penny on the mind there, Mark!
    >>
    >> Bill "a Carla for your thoughts" S.
    >
    >Ouch!
    >
    >Shaun aRe - A Freudian slip, that some kinda underskirt?

    Heh heh... Methinks you're overanalyzing. I think the technical term for what happened is "brain
    fart". But if I start having dreams about Penny as my mother or something, I'll let you know... ;-)

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
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