KoolStop Salmon = Aural torture!

[Tim Cain]

(Calm down there at the back, I said "aural"!)

About a week after I got my new bike, I decided to do the right thing good and early, and look after
my rims by fitting KoolStop salmon pads all round.

All well and good: Decent braking, wet or dry.

A week later, and things are starting to get noisy, and a couple of days after that, they are
getting downright embarassing - a real teeth-aching, loud squeal / howl (front brake only). I was
puzzled, because my rims were machined and the pads were toed in a touch.

Fortunately, at this point the heavens opened, and a bit of gritty wet riding had me braking quietly
and effectively. I say effectively, because in their noisy condition, the front brake was so loud
that I was only using it in extremis.

A few dry days later, and the front is howling and squealing as loudly as ever. With a lengthy dry
spell in the offing, I have to make my own grit: I smeared some abrasive kitchen cleaning cream on
the front rims and circled the yard with the brakes lightly applied. After rinsing, the brakes had
resumed their vow of silence.

A few more dry days pass, and the screeches have resumed.

I admit defeat, and stick some no-name black pads on the front , and am able once more to brake
effectively without first checking for witnesses.

FWIW, I examined the KoolStops after removal - the braking surface has no embedded metal or grit,
and none of that grubby aluminium sheen. Nice.

Is there something I've been doing wrong, or is it just that some combinations of rim, brake arm and
pad won't work quietly together?

Tim.

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[Callistus Valer]

I only have them on my front brakes and they do the exact same thing. But I don't look at it as a
deficit, but as an advantage. I come into a crowded intersection and with that high decibel squeel
everyone knows where I'm at. Like having a horn.

 

[Pete Biggs]

Tim Cain wrote:
> A week later, and things are starting to get noisy, and a couple of days after that, they are
> getting downright embarassing - a real teeth-aching, loud squeal / howl (front brake only). I was
> puzzled, because my rims were machined and the pads were toed in a touch.

If cantis, make sure pads are on the right way up (or right way round).

~PB

 

[Mike S.]

"Callistus Valerius" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I only have them on my front brakes and they do the exact same thing. But
I
> don't look at it as a deficit, but as an advantage. I come into a crowded intersection and with
> that high decibel squeel everyone knows where I'm
at.
> Like having a horn.

I've got some Avid Shorty 4s you can buy for cheap...

Mike

 

[Ant]

"Tim Cain" <tim_no1@you_know_what_to_cut_timcain.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> (Calm down there at the back, I said "aural"!)
>
> About a week after I got my new bike, I decided to do the right thing good and early, and look
> after my rims by fitting KoolStop salmon pads all round.
>
<snipped> 'they squeal'
>
> Is there something I've been doing wrong, or is it just that some combinations of rim, brake arm
> and pad won't work quietly together?

I can relate. If you find out how to fix 'em, just let me know!

I had a pair of the salmon bmx pads on an avid shorty canti on a surly crosscheck fork. the rear
worked fine, but the front squealed like hell. i laughed out loud reading your post about looking
for witnesses before braking, because that is exactly what i would do. i favor the front brake
heavily on a normal bike, but those things drove me crazy. and so embarassing, for a guy who had a
reputation for enjoying working on bikes.

'tried all kinds of toe in. cleaned, tightened, and lubed everything. cleaning rims with solvent
would quiet it a little bit, but only for a short while. i eventually got pretty fed up, and
switched to the avid pads that came with the brakes. noticeably less grippy than the salmon pads,
but they dont squeal unless its raining and i brake hard and the planets are oriented just so.

one thing id like to try is the salmon pads in the cartridge form. i think that perhaps the added
stiffness of the metal brake cartridge with the thin slip of salmon material might change something
in the resonance equation.

cheers, and good luck!

 

[Dan Daniel]

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 23:16:36 +0100, "Tim Cain" <tim_no1@you_know_what_to_cut_timcain.co.uk> wrote:

<< snip >>

>Is there something I've been doing wrong, or is it just that some combinations of rim, brake arm
>and pad won't work quietly together?
>
>Tim.
>

I've had the same problem, putting the salmons on an older Trek with 'Matrix' rims (cantilever
brakes). There hasn't been any rain, so I don't know how that will affect the noise.

I removed the 'plow tip' or whatever they call it on the trailing edge. I don't know if v-brake pads
have this. I took it off with a disc sander and put a nice lead-in bevel on the back fourth of the
pad (80 grit sandpaper will work if you do it by hand). I've done this with all Kool-stops with that
silly back tip. And I have done it with Matthauser (sp?) road pads. It has always helped with any
screaming. At least until this set-up.

The rims had some grayish anodizing left on them in places, and I took it all off with a Dremel and
a sanding drum.

Now with a small amount of toe-in (less than a dime's width from the front to back of the straight
section) I don't get much screaming. Well, it comes and goes, moves from the front to the back and
back to the front. Sometimes nothing except for hard stops, then sometimes only with slow stops.....
I don't get it and I'm close to giving up myself.

Try beveling the back quarter of the pad? And maybe get some 120-180 grit sandpaper and break any
surface glaze on the pad rather than doing the backyard grinding slurry.... #000 steel wool helps
clean the rims.

 

[Trent Piepho]

In article <[email protected]>, Tim Cain
<tim_no1@you_know_what_to_cut_timcain.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Is there something I've been doing wrong, or is it just that some combinations of rim, brake arm
>and pad won't work quietly together?

I just put some new salmon (not to be confused with red, they make both and unless you have them
side by side it's not obvious which is which) eagle claw 2s on my XT cantis.

First I put them flush to the rim, relying on the raised tail at the back of the pad to get
the right toe-in. After riding around the block violated the local noise ordinance, I adjusted
them again.

This time I put a nickel in the back (heel?) and a dime under the toe and pressed that tight against
the rim. Better, but still squealed under heavy breaking. Bike goes back in the work stand.

Finally, I just put the nickel under the heel and adjusted them that way. Now I can raise the rear
end off the ground when I come to a stop and not a peep from them.

You might try even more toe-in.

 

[Art Harris]

"Tim Cain" wrote:

> About a week after I got my new bike, I decided to do the right thing good and early, and look
> after my rims by fitting KoolStop salmon pads all round.
>
> All well and good: Decent braking, wet or dry.
>
> A week later, and things are starting to get noisy, and a couple of days after that, they are
> getting downright embarassing - a real teeth-aching, loud squeal / howl (front brake only).

I have Salmon Kool Stops on two bikes and they DO NOT squeal. Bike #1 has the "Continental" style
and Bike #2 has "Thinline" up front and "Eagle 2" on the rear. I prefer the Continental style (and
they're cheaper, too).

Sounds like yours started off quiet, and then started to squeal. Usually it's just the opposite with
brake pads. If you have any of the "asymetrical" pads, make sure the longer end is towards the rear.
Make sure the hardware is tight, the rims clean, and the pads square with the rim surface. Toe-in
should take care of itself as the pads wear
in.

Other than that, I'm at a loss to explain why folks are having problems with these pads squealing.

Art Harris

 

[Russell Seaton]

Ditto. I foolishly experimented with those so called magical Kool Stop brake pads. Never again. I
tried toe in, toe out, flat, etc. etc. Scrubbing and cleaning the rims will quiet them down somewhat
for one ride.

I recently replaced the pads on my Chorus brakes. I bought authentic Campagnolo replacement pads.
Not Kool Stop garbage.

"Tim Cain" <tim_no1@you_know_what_to_cut_timcain.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> (Calm down there at the back, I said "aural"!)
>
> About a week after I got my new bike, I decided to do the right thing good and early, and look
> after my rims by fitting KoolStop salmon pads all round.
>
> All well and good: Decent braking, wet or dry.
>
> A week later, and things are starting to get noisy, and a couple of days after that, they are
> getting downright embarassing - a real teeth-aching, loud squeal / howl (front brake only). I was
> puzzled, because my rims were machined and the pads were toed in a touch.
>
> Fortunately, at this point the heavens opened, and a bit of gritty wet riding had me braking
> quietly and effectively. I say effectively, because in their noisy condition, the front brake was
> so loud that I was only using it in extremis.
>
> A few dry days later, and the front is howling and squealing as loudly as ever. With a lengthy dry
> spell in the offing, I have to make my own grit: I smeared some abrasive kitchen cleaning cream on
> the front rims and circled the yard with the brakes lightly applied. After rinsing, the brakes had
> resumed their vow of silence.
>
> A few more dry days pass, and the screeches have resumed.
>
> I admit defeat, and stick some no-name black pads on the front , and am able once more to brake
> effectively without first checking for witnesses.
>
> FWIW, I examined the KoolStops after removal - the braking surface has no embedded metal or grit,
> and none of that grubby aluminium sheen. Nice.
>
> Is there something I've been doing wrong, or is it just that some combinations of rim, brake arm
> and pad won't work quietly together?
>
> Tim.
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 14/07/03

 

[Alex Rodriguez]

What kind of brakes are you using?
-----------------
Alex __O _-\<,_ (_)/ (_)

 

[Tim Cain]

"Alex Rodriguez" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> What kind of brakes are you using?

Avid V's on a Marin Mill Valley.

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[Chalo]

[email protected] (Russell Seaton) wrote:

> Ditto. I foolishly experimented with those so called magical Kool Stop brake pads. Never again. I
> tried toe in, toe out, flat, etc. etc. Scrubbing and cleaning the rims will quiet them down
> somewhat for one ride.
>
> I recently replaced the pads on my Chorus brakes. I bought authentic Campagnolo replacement pads.
> Not Kool Stop garbage.

Sounds like a problem with your brakes or their mounting, not your pads. I have had persistent
singing problems with one pair of semi-awful no-name cantilevers I fitted with red oxide Kool-Stops.
Elsewhere among my bikes they've delivered excellent braking without issues. The brakes just have to
be able to cope with the higher frictional coefficient of the Kool Stop pads.

Check to see that your calipers are tightly fastened and that all mounting hardware fits snugly.
Then take them off, have some canti studs brazed on, and get some real brakes!
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/strangebrakes.asp

Chalo Colina

 

[crazy6r54]

I use them and they do make all that goose sound. Then its time to toe and make sure the rims and
pads are clean . Scrubby pad works wonders when cleaning rims and pads.

Fire up MTB 03

 

[Tom Nakashima]

Salmon brake pad shoe, Out of the mold they're terrible. Hit them with 220 grit sand paper, puting
in a slight taper, that's your built-in toe-in. Best pads I';ve ever used. No squeal. Just got to
know how to set them up. I'll take your used pads if you're going to throw them away. -tom

"Russell Seaton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Ditto. I foolishly experimented with those so called magical Kool Stop brake pads. Never again. I
> tried toe in, toe out, flat, etc. etc. Scrubbing and cleaning the rims will quiet them down
> somewhat for one ride.
>
> I recently replaced the pads on my Chorus brakes. I bought authentic Campagnolo replacement pads.
> Not Kool Stop garbage.
>
> "Tim Cain" <tim_no1@you_know_what_to_cut_timcain.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > (Calm down there at the back, I said "aural"!)
> >
> > About a week after I got my new bike, I decided to do the right thing good and early, and look
> > after my rims by fitting KoolStop salmon pads all round.
> >
> > All well and good: Decent braking, wet or dry.
> >
> > A week later, and things are starting to get noisy, and a couple of days after that, they are
> > getting downright embarassing - a real teeth-aching, loud squeal / howl (front brake only). I
> > was puzzled, because my rims were machined and the pads were toed in a touch.
> >
> > Fortunately, at this point the heavens opened, and a bit of gritty wet riding had me braking
> > quietly and effectively. I say effectively, because in their noisy condition, the front brake
> > was so loud that I was only using it in extremis.
> >
> > A few dry days later, and the front is howling and squealing as loudly as ever. With a lengthy
> > dry spell in the offing, I have to make my own grit: I smeared some abrasive kitchen cleaning
> > cream on the front rims and circled the yard with the brakes lightly applied. After rinsing, the
> > brakes had resumed their vow of silence.
> >
> > A few more dry days pass, and the screeches have resumed.
> >
> > I admit defeat, and stick some no-name black pads on the front , and am able once more to brake
> > effectively without first checking for witnesses.
> >
> > FWIW, I examined the KoolStops after removal - the braking surface has no embedded metal or
> > grit, and none of that grubby aluminium sheen. Nice.
> >
> > Is there something I've been doing wrong, or is it just that some combinations of rim, brake arm
> > and pad won't work quietly together?
> >
> > Tim.
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system
> > (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 14/07/03

 

[Pete Geurds]

From: [email protected]
> I use them and they do make all that goose sound. Then its time to toe and make sure the rims and
> pads are clean . Scrubby pad works wonders when cleaning rims and pads.

I've been having problems with noise using the salmon Kool Stop Continentals on Weinmann
centerpulls. Cleaned rim, did toe-in pads. Lasted half a ride before the squeal started
again. hmmm.....

Pete Geurds Douglassville, PA

 

[Michael]

Pete Geurds wrote:
>
> From: [email protected]
> > I use them and they do make all that goose sound. Then its time to toe and make sure the rims
> > and pads are clean . Scrubby pad works wonders when cleaning rims and pads.
>
> I've been having problems with noise using the salmon Kool Stop Continentals on Weinmann
> centerpulls. Cleaned rim, did toe-in pads. Lasted half a ride before the squeal started again.
> hmmm.....
>
>
> Pete Geurds Douglassville, PA

Your Weinmann centerpulls, Pete ..... My '79 vintage Motobecane has 'em too, and the front one
requires a heck of a lot of lever travel. Haven't yet been able to adjust it so that the pads don't
drag *and* the lever won't bottom out. Is this your experience too?

I've put 113 miles of street time on KoolStops (not salmon) and I like 'em. If it weren't for the
grooves on the steel rims they'd probably be even quieter.