Koolstop Salmons vs Koolstop Blacks report

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 23:48:18 GMT,
[email protected] wrote:

>Blair P. Houghton writes:
>
>>>> I put a pair of Koolstop salmons to replace worn Koolstop blacks.
>>>> The braking is pretty much identical, but if I had to choose, the
>>>> salmons are better, but almost imperceptibly.
>
>>>> To be honest, I was expecting a large increase in braking power,
>>>> but I'm guessing that Koolstop just makes their pads well in any
>>>> color.
>
>>> Just chucked my Campy pads for some Salmons today. After about 300
>>> miles the Campy pads were leaving skid marks all over the rims and
>>> were grabbing. At least the Koolstops will make me feel better by
>>> not leaving skid marks I can see. I just rode them for 35 miles and
>>> they were great right out of the box. I would say the stopping
>>> power is better than the Campy pads, but all you need to lock up
>>> any wheel is a little more muscle on the brake levers.
>
>> I honestly have no idea how old my brake pads are (somewhere between
>> 12 and 20 years), nor what brand they are, but they've never failed
>> to perform exactly as I expect them to.
>
>I take it you are trying to convince readers that you don't ride bike,
>but to the corner news stand and back if that. My father also had the
>same brake pads on his bicycle for more than 40 years. He bought that
>bicycle to get to his office a mile away once when the car broke down.
>He never rode it since. Those were durable brake pads.
>
>Jobst Brandt
>[email protected]

Dear Jobst,

Or he could be enjoying a route like my daily ride, which is
fifteen miles without thirty seconds of braking. Since 1986,
I've replaced more front chain rings than I have brake pads.

It's a pleasant ride, but a lumber-yard truck does more
braking than I do.

Carl Fogel

 

[Michael Dart]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Blair P. Houghton writes:
>
> >>> I put a pair of Koolstop salmons to replace worn Koolstop blacks.
> >>> The braking is pretty much identical, but if I had to choose, the
> >>> salmons are better, but almost imperceptibly.
>
> >>> To be honest, I was expecting a large increase in braking power,
> >>> but I'm guessing that Koolstop just makes their pads well in any
> >>> color.
>
> >> Just chucked my Campy pads for some Salmons today. After about 300
> >> miles the Campy pads were leaving skid marks all over the rims and
> >> were grabbing. At least the Koolstops will make me feel better by
> >> not leaving skid marks I can see. I just rode them for 35 miles and
> >> they were great right out of the box. I would say the stopping
> >> power is better than the Campy pads, but all you need to lock up
> >> any wheel is a little more muscle on the brake levers.
>
> > I honestly have no idea how old my brake pads are (somewhere between
> > 12 and 20 years), nor what brand they are, but they've never failed
> > to perform exactly as I expect them to.
>
> I take it you are trying to convince readers that you don't ride bike,
> but to the corner news stand and back if that. My father also had the
> same brake pads on his bicycle for more than 40 years. He bought that
> bicycle to get to his office a mile away once when the car broke down.
> He never rode it since. Those were durable brake pads.
>

If you'll notice, Mr. Brandt, that he didn't say they worked well. They
"perform exactly" just as crappy "as he'd expect" from a pair of dried out
and rock hard 20 yr old brake pads. ;^)

Mike

 

[Blair P. Houghton]

<[email protected]> wrote:
>Blair P. Houghton writes:
>> I honestly have no idea how old my brake pads are (somewhere between
>> 12 and 20 years), nor what brand they are, but they've never failed
>> to perform exactly as I expect them to.
>
>I take it you are trying to convince readers that you don't ride bike,
>but to the corner news stand and back if that.

I take it you are convincing readers you haven't been
paying attention.

After a 12-year layoff, I'm now riding 20+ mph over 20
miles a day 5-6 days a week, and entertaining the conceit
of training up to race pace.

This bike sat in the garage for 12 years while I did other,
less satisfying things.

They're clearly durable, as they would have had several
thousand miles on them before I stopped riding, and as they
have sat in a garage in Arizona through several thousand
daily temperature cycles and a dozen summers.

They work just fine.

--Blair
"Brakes are for stopping, and
who likes to do that?"

 

[Blair P. Houghton]

<[email protected]> wrote:
>Or he could be enjoying a route like my daily ride, which is
>fifteen miles without thirty seconds of braking. Since 1986,
>I've replaced more front chain rings than I have brake pads.

Thinking about it, the only normal time I use the hoods for
what they were installed for is when I'm at the bottom of
the descent on the big hill, where I have to make a right
turn from a minor road to a highway bike lane.

Then I stand to get back up to speed.

I'd say I've used 3 to 5 seconds of light pressure 3 to 4
times a day over the past three months. What's that? 400,
500 molecules of rubber lost?

Sometimes there's a car turning in front of me on one of
the other turns, but if not I take those at full cadence
whenever possible. And then there's that guy who backed
out into the parking lot making me bail out over my
top-tube, but that took more material off my crank than
my brakes...

--Blair
"Like I said. Brakes are for slow."

 

[Blair P. Houghton]

Michael Dart <[email protected]> wrote:
>If you'll notice, Mr. Brandt, that he didn't say they worked well. They
>"perform exactly" just as crappy "as he'd expect" from a pair of dried out
>and rock hard 20 yr old brake pads. ;^)

No, they work well. :-}^%****$@++!

--Blair
"'"

 

[[email protected]]

Blair P. Houghton writes:

>>> I honestly have no idea how old my brake pads are (somewhere
>>> between 12 and 20 years), nor what brand they are, but they've
>>> never failed to perform exactly as I expect them to.

>> I take it you are trying to convince readers that you don't ride
>> bike, but to the corner news stand and back if that.

> I take it you are convincing readers you haven't been paying
> attention.

> After a 12-year layoff, I'm now riding 20+ mph over 20 miles a day
> 5-6 days a week, and entertaining the conceit of training up to race
> pace.

> This bike sat in the garage for 12 years while I did other, less
> satisfying things.

OK, so you didn't ride much in those years as I suspected.

> They're clearly durable, as they would have had several thousand
> miles on them before I stopped riding, and as they have sat in a
> garage in Arizona through several thousand daily temperature cycles
> and a dozen summers.

> They work just fine.

Great. Then put them to use and go for a ride outside city streets
and get up in the hills. I'm sure any race you might ride will have
either hills or a lot of corners to climb out of so-to-speak.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]

 

[Rick Warner]

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 06:26:23 GMT, [email protected]
wrote:


>
>Great. Then put them to use and go for a ride outside city streets
>and get up in the hills. I'm sure any race you might ride will have
>either hills or a lot of corners to climb out of so-to-speak.

Hey Jobst,

In another thread he says he lives near south mountain in Phoenix;
despite the mountain in the name there is not a lot of hilly terrain
in that area, nothing like we have around where we live. He might
have to go a bit further than 20 miles to get into any real hills, or
get one of those SUVs you were looking at to transport his bike to
where he can find some more vertical terrain.

- rick

 

[gwhite]

[email protected] wrote:
>
> Blair P. Houghton writes:
>
> >>> I honestly have no idea how old my brake pads are (somewhere
> >>> between 12 and 20 years), nor what brand they are, but they've
> >>> never failed to perform exactly as I expect them to.
>
> >> I take it you are trying to convince readers that you don't ride
> >> bike, but to the corner news stand and back if that.
>
> > I take it you are convincing readers you haven't been paying
> > attention.
>
> > After a 12-year layoff, I'm now riding 20+ mph over 20 miles a day
> > 5-6 days a week, and entertaining the conceit of training up to race
> > pace.
>
> > This bike sat in the garage for 12 years while I did other, less
> > satisfying things.
>
> OK, so you didn't ride much in those years as I suspected.
>
> > They're clearly durable, as they would have had several thousand
> > miles on them before I stopped riding, and as they have sat in a
> > garage in Arizona through several thousand daily temperature cycles
> > and a dozen summers.
>
> > They work just fine.
>
> Great. Then put them to use and go for a ride outside city streets
> and get up in the hills. I'm sure any race you might ride will have
> either hills or a lot of corners to climb out of so-to-speak.


That's all well and good. However, I ride often but also have one bike (my
"poor man's" TT bike) that I ride seldom. The brakes are old (~15y) dia-compes
with the original black pads. They actually work decently, and that is
comparing them to the bike I ride several times a week, which has Kool Stop
Black Eagle Claw pads. While many old pads probably are poor, I believe it is
possible there are exceptions to the rule.

 

[Jay Beattie]

"gwhite" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> [email protected] wrote:
> >
> > Blair P. Houghton writes:
> >
> > >>> I honestly have no idea how old my brake pads are
(somewhere
> > >>> between 12 and 20 years), nor what brand they are, but
they've
> > >>> never failed to perform exactly as I expect them to.
> >
> > >> I take it you are trying to convince readers that you
don't ride
> > >> bike, but to the corner news stand and back if that.
> >
> > > I take it you are convincing readers you haven't been
paying
> > > attention.
> >
> > > After a 12-year layoff, I'm now riding 20+ mph over 20
miles a day
> > > 5-6 days a week, and entertaining the conceit of training
up to race
> > > pace.
> >
> > > This bike sat in the garage for 12 years while I did other,
less
> > > satisfying things.
> >
> > OK, so you didn't ride much in those years as I suspected.
> >
> > > They're clearly durable, as they would have had several
thousand
> > > miles on them before I stopped riding, and as they have sat
in a
> > > garage in Arizona through several thousand daily
temperature cycles
> > > and a dozen summers.
> >
> > > They work just fine.
> >
> > Great. Then put them to use and go for a ride outside city
streets
> > and get up in the hills. I'm sure any race you might ride
will have
> > either hills or a lot of corners to climb out of so-to-speak.
>
>
> That's all well and good. However, I ride often but also have
one bike (my
> "poor man's" TT bike) that I ride seldom. The brakes are old
(~15y) dia-compes
> with the original black pads. They actually work decently, and
that is
> comparing them to the bike I ride several times a week, which
has Kool Stop
> Black Eagle Claw pads. While many old pads probably are poor,
I believe it is
> possible there are exceptions to the rule.

I would propose a different rule: most pads on most brakes are
adequate to stop a bicycle in dry weather -- even old pads. The
salmon Koolstops are only remarkable for their wet weather
stopping, which is why I use them. -- Jay Beattie.

 

[g.daniels]

"brake pad treatment 2" in bike tech turns new goodyears into
stoppers! rain shine cow flop!

 

[Blair P. Houghton]

<[email protected]> wrote:
>Blair P. Houghton writes:
>
>>>> I honestly have no idea how old my brake pads are (somewhere
>>>> between 12 and 20 years), nor what brand they are, but they've
>>>> never failed to perform exactly as I expect them to.
>
>>> I take it you are trying to convince readers that you don't ride
>>> bike, but to the corner news stand and back if that.
>
>> I take it you are convincing readers you haven't been paying
>> attention.
>
>> After a 12-year layoff, I'm now riding 20+ mph over 20 miles a day
>> 5-6 days a week, and entertaining the conceit of training up to race
>> pace.
>
>> This bike sat in the garage for 12 years while I did other, less
>> satisfying things.
>
>OK, so you didn't ride much in those years as I suspected.

What you suspected was I don't ride much period, and what
you expressed was that I ride only to the corner news stand.
I can see it up there, where you typed it into the thread.

>> They're clearly durable, as they would have had several thousand
>> miles on them before I stopped riding, and as they have sat in a
>> garage in Arizona through several thousand daily temperature cycles
>> and a dozen summers.
>
>> They work just fine.
>
>Great. Then put them to use and go for a ride outside city streets
>and get up in the hills. I'm sure any race you might ride will have
>either hills or a lot of corners to climb out of so-to-speak.

These streets are technically "in the city" but if you saw the
terrain you'd know I'm already "in the hills". Just not very
large ones on my current ride. But plenty large that in my rather
experienced estimation my brakes are in perfect shape.

Now here's the rub: this morning, while riding, I was thinking
about this conversation and realized I can't honestly remember if
I asked them to change out the brake pads when I took the bike
into the LBS to scrape the old lube out of the bearings and replace
the tires and the bar tape and the straps...they didn't put new
straps on, so maybe in addition to 20-year-old leather on my pedals
I have similar-era rubber on my brakes after all.

But I couldn't tell you without examining them closer.

Which sounds about as exciting as guessing what you'll
suspect next.

--Blair
"So I won't."

 

[Blair P. Houghton]

Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:
>I would propose a different rule: most pads on most brakes are
>adequate to stop a bicycle in dry weather -- even old pads. The
>salmon Koolstops are only remarkable for their wet weather
>stopping, which is why I use them. -- Jay Beattie.

A reasonable dichotomy in the paradigm. I haven't been riding
in wet weather at all in the past three months. I don't even
encounter puddles any more since I stopped riding through the
apartments with their sprinkler runoff.

Could be the first time I immerse a rim I'll stop in New Mexico...

--Blair
"Or just Mexico..."

 

[[email protected]]

Blair P. Houghton writes:

>> I would propose a different rule: most pads on most brakes are
>> adequate to stop a bicycle in dry weather -- even old pads. The
>> salmon Koolstops are only remarkable for their wet weather
>> stopping, which is why I use them.

> A reasonable dichotomy in the paradigm. I haven't been riding in
> wet weather at all in the past three months. I don't even encounter
> puddles any more since I stopped riding through the apartments with
> their sprinkler runoff.

> Could be the first time I immerse a rim I'll stop in New Mexico...

I have had better performance from Kool-Stop Salmon pads than any
other but there is a limit to what brake pads can do and this becomes
apparent when a water supply keeps the rim wet. This also makes clear
what occurs when descending in wet weather and at first application
having poor braking.

I have had the opportunity to descend after riding through fresh snow
that collects on the inner diameter of a common, non-aero, rim. I was
impressed how the bicycle was almost without braking as long as there
was still snow on the rim to melt and keep a film of water on the
brake track of the rim.

As previously mentioned, even a sharp edged squeegee leaves a film of
water on a window or it wouldn't glide as it normally does. The same
goes for brake pads and aluminum rims. This is where the ceramic rims
come in, but they have a brake pad destructive surface both by
roughness and thermal insulation that burns pads. So that isn't a
solution for paved road descending.

If you have the opportunity to make this test, I think you will be
surprised. This makes clear that the rim, even in rain, is mostly dry
when braking effectively. I am disappointed in the bicycle industry
for not researching this sort of thing and at least documenting it.
It is like the cheese-grating metal lids on patch kits that
manufacturers believe are what needs to be done to make patches hold.
The rougher the better. They don't even know about mold release. I
discovered that at InterBike in Las Vegas recently.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]

 

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

g.daniels wrote:
> "brake pad treatment 2" in bike tech turns new goodyears into
> stoppers! rain shine cow flop!

You've mentioned cow flop many a time now... I'm curious as to what that
is...
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

 

[g.daniels]

soil science meets brake pads!!
sand (various types), clay, locked phosphorus, unlocked ditto, granite
dust,uh,
volcanic material, shale, limestone soils, hydric soils, peat,
anerobic swamp dugup(phew), general organic slime, cow flop, pool
table lint, ...

 

[James]

[email protected] (g.daniels) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> soil science meets brake pads!!
> sand (various types), clay, locked phosphorus, unlocked ditto, granite
> dust,uh,
> volcanic material, shale, limestone soils, hydric soils, peat,
> anerobic swamp dugup(phew), general organic slime, cow flop, pool
> table lint, ...

I've gotta say, you write like a Dr. Bronner's soap bottle.

- James

 

[LioNiNoiL_a t_Y a h 0 0_d 0 t_c 0 m]

>> soil science meets brake pads!!
>> sand (various types), clay, locked phosphorus, unlocked
>> ditto, granite dust,uh, volcanic material, shale, limestone
>> soils, hydric soils, peat, anerobic swamp dugup(phew),
>> general organic slime, cow flop, pool table lint, ...
>
> I've gotta say, you write like a Dr. Bronner's soap bottle.

Naah, he never mentioned *all one* .

--
"Bicycling is a healthy and manly pursuit with much
to recommend it, and, unlike other foolish crazes,
it has not died out." -- The Daily Telegraph (1877)

 

[g.daniels]

yeah. check out soil science: types are many, friction, abrasion
quotients vary from area to area. try the USDA or USGS sites. maybe
your state college Ag group-personal email maybe.
Atlanta clay, Ocala subase clay! Oswego! breakaleg.