Kunich, surely you're kidding...right? (nothing to do with racing)

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Bikeadman, Mar 17, 2003.

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  1. Bikeadman

    Bikeadman Guest

    Tom Kunich wrote: "Please remember that the world has never had a longer period of peace than the
    last 60 years that America has bought with its money, its power and its blood."

    Tom, Tom, Tom, I really do do my earnest best to let you go your own, odd way, but this, Tom, this
    is too much. You're kidding, right?

    Just as a top-of-the mind example where the U.S. has inserted troops, or done black bag ops attended
    by death in these last sixty "peaceful" years:

    Afghanistan Dominican Republic Chile Greece Grenada Guatamala Iran Iraq Korea Kosovo Nicaragua The
    Phillipines Sudan

    Hmm, I keep thinking I'm missing one. Oh, yes. Vietnam.

    Richard
     
    Tags:


  2. David Ryan

    David Ryan Guest

    BikeAdman wrote:
    >
    > Tom Kunich wrote: "Please remember that the world has never had a longer period of peace than the
    > last 60 years that America has bought with its money, its power and its blood."
    >
    > Tom, Tom, Tom, I really do do my earnest best to let you go your own, odd way, but this, Tom, this
    > is too much. You're kidding, right?
    >
    > Just as a top-of-the mind example where the U.S. has inserted troops, or done black bag ops
    > attended by death in these last sixty "peaceful" years:
    >
    > Afghanistan Dominican Republic Chile Greece Grenada Guatamala Iran Iraq Korea Kosovo Nicaragua The
    > Phillipines Sudan
    >
    > Hmm, I keep thinking I'm missing one. Oh, yes. Vietnam.
    >
    > Richard

    Panama Bosnia-Herzegovina Somalia (I think you meant instead of Sudan) Colombia

    But, yes, that qualifies as "peace." - Just like you have general civil law and order despite the
    odd bank robbery, murder and white collar crime for which you send in the cops, instead of allowing
    chaos. Or maybe a perfect world would be anarchy?
     
  3. Bikeadman

    Bikeadman Guest

    More off-racing, but on Kunich:

    This test consists of only one multiple-choice question, so try to get it right.

    Here's a list of the countries that the U.S. has

    bombed since the end of World War II, as compiled by

    historian William Blum:

    China 1945-46

    Korea 1950-53

    China 1950-53

    Guatemala 1954

    Indonesia 1958

    Cuba 1959-60

    Guatemala 1960

    Congo 1964

    Peru 1965

    Laos 1964-73

    Vietnam 1961-73

    Cambodia 1969-70

    Guatemala 1967-69

    Grenada 1983

    Libya 1986

    El Salvador 1980s

    Nicaragua 1980s

    Panama 1989

    Iraq 1991-99

    Sudan 1998

    Afghanistan 1998

    Yugoslavia 1999

    Now the question.

    In how many of these instances did a democratic

    government, respectful of human rights, occur as a direct result of our bombing?

    The Answer: 0
     
  4. In message <[email protected]>, BikeAdman <[email protected]> writes
    >Now the question.
    >
    >In how many of these instances did a democratic
    >
    >government, respectful of human rights, occur as a direct result of our bombing?

    Is the result different if the three questions are split?

    1. How many of these countries now have democratic governments?

    2. Of the countries identified in Q1, how many of the governments are respectful of human rights?

    3. Of the countries identified in Q1 and Q2, how many of them would have achieved this state as a
    result of military action (including bombing) by the USA?

    4. Of the countries identified in Q1, Q2 and Q3, how many of them achieved this state as a direct
    result of bombing by the USA?
    --
    Michael MacClancy
     
  5. "BikeAdman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > More off-racing, but on Kunich:
    >
    > This test consists of only one multiple-choice question, so try to get it right.
    >
    >
    >
    > Here's a list of the countries that the U.S. has
    >
    > bombed since the end of World War II, as compiled by
    >
    > historian William Blum:
    >
    >
    >
    > China 1945-46
    >
    > Korea 1950-53
    >
    > China 1950-53
    >
    > Guatemala 1954
    >
    > Indonesia 1958
    >
    > Cuba 1959-60
    >
    > Guatemala 1960
    >
    > Congo 1964
    >
    > Peru 1965
    >
    > Laos 1964-73
    >
    > Vietnam 1961-73
    >
    > Cambodia 1969-70
    >
    > Guatemala 1967-69
    >
    > Grenada 1983
    >
    > Libya 1986
    >
    > El Salvador 1980s
    >
    > Nicaragua 1980s
    >
    > Panama 1989
    >
    > Iraq 1991-99
    >
    > Sudan 1998
    >
    > Afghanistan 1998
    >
    > Yugoslavia 1999
    >
    >
    >
    > Now the question.
    >
    > In how many of these instances did a democratic
    >
    > government, respectful of human rights, occur as a direct result of our bombing?
    >
    >
    > The Answer: 0

    You forgot the French embassy in Libya, which technically is sovereign soil.

    -T
     
  6. Tritonrider

    Tritonrider Guest

  7. David Ryan

    David Ryan Guest

    BikeAdman wrote:
    >
    > More off-racing, but on Kunich:
    >
    > This test consists of only one multiple-choice question, so try to get it right.
    >
    >
    >
    > Here's a list of the countries that the U.S. has
    >
    > bombed since the end of World War II, as compiled by
    >
    > historian William Blum:
    >
    > China 1945-46
    >
    > Korea 1950-53
    >
    > China 1950-53
    >
    > Guatemala 1954
    >
    > Indonesia 1958
    >
    > Cuba 1959-60
    >
    > Guatemala 1960
    >
    > Congo 1964
    >
    > Peru 1965
    >
    > Laos 1964-73
    >
    > Vietnam 1961-73
    >
    > Cambodia 1969-70
    >
    > Guatemala 1967-69
    >
    > Grenada 1983
    >
    > Libya 1986
    >
    > El Salvador 1980s
    >
    > Nicaragua 1980s
    >
    > Panama 1989
    >
    > Iraq 1991-99
    >
    > Sudan 1998
    >
    > Afghanistan 1998
    >
    > Yugoslavia 1999
    >
    > Now the question.
    >
    > In how many of these instances did a democratic government, respectful of human rights, occur as a
    > direct result of our bombing?
    >
    > The Answer: 0

    The answer is not zero. But what made you think that was the objective?
     
  8. "TritonRider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Just a little more info on human nature as it relates to getting along and peace. Pretty gloomy
    > reading, scan through the tables especialy.
    >
    > http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/392/spy/Ongoing%20World%20Conflicts.htm

    One of the sentences in there made me laugh.

    "China also claims Taiwan and Nepal, which it considers breakaway provinces"

    Taiwan yes, but Nepal?

    That's funny. Nepal is on the other side of the Himalaya. I've ridden a MTB down the Lhasa to
    Kathmandu route and there is almost no military presence at the border. Not only that, there is
    hardly a road to the border. The roads leading down those gorges drop 15,000 vertical feet, the way
    is steep and there are thousands of waterfalls, fueled by glacial melting. The 'road' we were on was
    out in 5 different spots (erosion from waterfalls). At the bottom of one of the wash-outs was a
    truck hundreds of feet down. The commerce that was being conducted was via porters, on foot.

    I don't think that China has ever gone after Nepal in its 5000 year history. It's simply not
    geographically feasible.

    Taiwan is another matter. They view Taiwan the same way we would view Cuba if the Confederates holed
    up there after the Civil War.

    Anyways, that site had interesting reading, but obviously parts of it need to be taken with a
    grain of salt.
     
  9. "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "TritonRider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > > Just a little more info on human nature as it relates to getting along
    and
    > > peace. Pretty gloomy reading, scan through the tables especialy.
    > >
    > > http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/392/spy/Ongoing%20World%20Conflicts.htm
    >
    >
    >
    > One of the sentences in there made me laugh.
    >
    > "China also claims Taiwan and Nepal, which it considers breakaway
    provinces"
    >
    >
    > Taiwan yes, but Nepal?
    >

    I'm sure they meant Tibet.

    -T
     
  10. On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 21:39:10 GMT, Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    >"China also claims Taiwan and Nepal, which it considers breakaway =
    provinces"
    >Taiwan yes, but Nepal?

    Maybe they meant Tibet?
     
  11. Max Watt

    Max Watt Guest

    David Ryan <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > BikeAdman wrote:
    > >
    > > More off-racing, but on Kunich:
    > >
    ......
    > >
    > > Afghanistan 1998
    > >
    > > Yugoslavia 1999
    > >
    > > Now the question.
    > >
    > > In how many of these instances did a democratic government, respectful of human rights, occur as
    > > a direct result of our bombing?
    > >
    > > The Answer: 0
    >
    > The answer is not zero. But what made you think that was the objective?

    We're going to do it again and again until we get it right.
     
  12. Robert Chung

    Robert Chung Guest

    "BikeAdman" <[email protected]> wrote

    [list snipped]

    > In how many of these instances did a democratic government, respectful of human rights, occur as a
    > direct result of our bombing?
    >
    > The Answer: 0

    Maybe, maybe not. But some of these events appear to have contributed to regime change, if by regime
    change you include changes in the U.S. presidency.
     
  13. BikeAdman <[email protected]> schreef in berichtnieuws
    [email protected]
    > Tom Kunich wrote: "Please remember that the world has never had a longer
    period
    > of peace than the last 60 years that America has bought with its money,
    its
    > power and its blood."
    >
    > Tom, Tom, Tom, I really do do my earnest best to let you go your own, odd
    way,
    > but this, Tom, this is too much. You're kidding, right?
    >
    > Just as a top-of-the mind example where the U.S. has inserted troops, or
    done
    > black bag ops attended by death in these last sixty "peaceful" years:
    >
    > Afghanistan Dominican Republic Chile Greece Grenada Guatamala Iran Iraq Korea Kosovo Nicaragua The
    > Phillipines Sudan
    >
    > Hmm, I keep thinking I'm missing one. Oh, yes. Vietnam.
    >
    > Richard

    You missed another one: Cambodia. It was dragged into war by the US, which eventually led to the
    'Killing Fields'. A few days ago I saw some footage of 'carpet bombing' around Pnomh Penh. It
    was horrible.
     
  14. Robert Chung <[email protected]> schreef in berichtnieuws
    [email protected]
    >
    > "BikeAdman" <[email protected]> wrote
    >
    > [list snipped]
    >
    > > In how many of these instances did a democratic government, respectful of human rights, occur as
    > > a direct result of our bombing?
    > >
    > > The Answer: 0
    >
    > Maybe, maybe not. But some of these events appear to have contributed to regime change, if by
    > regime change you include changes in the U.S. presidency.
    >
    >

    And also regime changes in the countries involved, like Chile, when Allende was succeeded by
    Pinochet. I'm not sure if that made the country more democratic though. What does
    'freedom-loving' mean?
     
  15. "Stewart Fleming" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    > > "TritonRider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > >>Just a little more info on human nature as it relates to getting along
    and
    > >>peace. Pretty gloomy reading, scan through the tables especialy.
    > >>
    > >>http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/392/spy/Ongoing%20World%20Conflicts.htm
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > One of the sentences in there made me laugh.
    > >
    > > "China also claims Taiwan and Nepal, which it considers breakaway
    provinces"
    >
    > Tibet instead of Nepal? STF
    >
    Tibet is hardly a breakaway province, occupied as it is by PRC troops. Last two attempts at
    breakaway were relative bloody for the small population.

    China has a long memory - they still consider Viet Nam a tributary, which partly led to the brief
    bloody war in the spring of 1979. Can't quite see Nepal as a province though.

    --
    Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...
     
  16. Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:

    > That's funny. Nepal is on the other side of the Himalaya. I've ridden a MTB down the Lhasa to
    > Kathmandu route and there is almost no military presence at the border.

    Wow! Is there a write-up of that somewhere? I would love to see and read about that trip!

    Didier

    --
    Didier A Depireux [email protected] [email protected] 685 W.Baltimore Str
    http://neurobiology.umaryland.edu/depireux.htm Anatomy and Neurobiology Phone: 410-706-1272 (off)
    University of Maryland -1273 (lab) Baltimore MD 21201 USA Fax: 1-410-706-2512
     
  17. Ken Papai

    Ken Papai Guest

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    "BikeAdman" <>
    > Hmm, I keep thinking I'm missing one. Oh, yes. Vietnam.
    >
    > Richard
    >
    >
     
  18. Curtis L. Russell wrote:

    > Tibet is hardly a breakaway province, occupied as it is by PRC troops. Last two attempts at
    > breakaway were relative bloody for the small population.

    China considers Tibet a Chinese territory. (Note I didn't make the original description of
    "breakaway province".)

    In 1949, shortly after the PRC was founded, the call went out from Beijing to "liberate all Chinese
    territories, including Xinjiang, Hainan and Taiwan." (Note the use of the word "liberate" to
    describe the illegal invasion and annexation of another nation.) The Chinese army destroyed the
    Tibetan army in about 2 days and has been there ever since. As you may know, the Dalai Lama stayed
    on as token Head of State for some years before escaping over the mountains in 1959.

    Interesting to see what the fledgling UN did in response to requests for assistance (even discussion
    in General Assembly)...

    STF
     
  19. David Ryan

    David Ryan Guest

    "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" wrote:
    >
    > BikeAdman <[email protected]> schreef in berichtnieuws
    > [email protected]
    > > Tom Kunich wrote: "Please remember that the world has never had a longer
    > period
    > > of peace than the last 60 years that America has bought with its money,
    > its
    > > power and its blood."
    > >
    > > Tom, Tom, Tom, I really do do my earnest best to let you go your own, odd
    > way,
    > > but this, Tom, this is too much. You're kidding, right?
    > >
    > > Just as a top-of-the mind example where the U.S. has inserted troops, or
    > done
    > > black bag ops attended by death in these last sixty "peaceful" years:
    > >
    > > Afghanistan Dominican Republic Chile Greece Grenada Guatamala Iran Iraq Korea Kosovo Nicaragua
    > > The Phillipines Sudan
    > >
    > > Hmm, I keep thinking I'm missing one. Oh, yes. Vietnam.
    > >
    > > Richard
    >
    > You missed another one: Cambodia. It was dragged into war by the US, which eventually led to the
    > 'Killing Fields'. A few days ago I saw some footage of 'carpet bombing' around Pnomh Penh. It was
    > horrible.

    Shows how little most people know but the propaganda. The Ho Chi Minh trail (the supply line from
    the communist north) skirted the defended border and bombing by going through Cambodia. And the
    growth of the Khmer Rouge did not depend on US involvement no matter how many times America-hating
    professors claim it did.
     
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