L5 Intervals - How often?

[Porkyboy]

Hi

L5 intervals are very uncomfortable, how often do you need to do them per week to deliver significant benefits and how long do you think it would be before a measurable FTP improvement might be expected through such training, in your experience?

Thanks,

PBUK

 

[robkit]

i'm no scientist but as a rider who does them i think, and this is keeping in mind that taking that sort of pain is very much a mind/motivation over matter skill, then

- some people say dont do "intervals" more than twice a week
- some say only do them if and when you feel motivated, which for the average guy might not correspond to more than 2 times a week
- personally i prefer to do them in blocks of 2 or even 3 days in a row, then give it a break for the rest of the week, or more. for a while i made really quick gains in the power i could use, especially on the second day.

i think that provided you do some threshold maintenance work as well, maintaining it at say X% of max HR, then your threshold power at X% of max HR is going to respond as quickly as your gains in VO2max. this i noticed, more or less.

i also noticed that if you overdo this kind of "systemic asphyixa" (for fun) ... i coined your phrase from the other thread on that one because i really like it...then you will completely lose the will to do any intervals at all, drink losts of beer instead, and your performance willl suffer!

 

[Piotr]

I wouldn't do them more than once a week, but you may want to search this forum for "L5 block training" and find differing opinions.

 

[frenchyge]

I've tolerated twice per week for a few weeks (not fun).

I'd leave room (motivation) in the schedule for continued L4/SST work during this period as well, so don't max out on L5.

 

[jD_Empath]

I do them all the time. It's what happens when you live in an area with a lot of double-digit grades. Maybe if my threshold power was a lot higher then I could sandbag the hills but it's just not that high yet, so my hills tend to go at 120% FT or more. Even higher in the weekly club races.

 

[Piotr]

I do them all the time. It's what happens when you live in an area with a lot of double-digit grades. Maybe if my threshold power was a lot higher then I could sandbag the hills but it's just not that high yet, so my hills tend to go at 120% FT or more. Even higher in the weekly club races.

You mean, you do them all the time until... (that part is yet to come).

 

[jD_Empath]

You mean, you do them all the time until... (that part is yet to come).

yeah until I get stronger and they no longer represent an effort that exceeds threshold. I suspect that will come soon (since I seem to be getting a lot faster this year) however I also predict that I will probably hammer them harder which will cause them to be L5 intervals yet again, only faster.

The upside is that I would be able to *decide* whether to engage in an L5 interval rather than just *having* to do them. The downside is that I would be able to *decide*, and consequently might decide to take it easy

Most of the hills can be sandbagged, but we have quite a few around here that get to between 15 and 20 percent, and I cannot take those at an "easy pace".

 

[jD_Empath]

Here's an L5 hill interval from two days ago. This hill is about 1/2 mile of crazy grade (15+) and I stood up and ground it out the whole way in my lowest gear of 39/27. You can see the cadence is about 50. There were maybe 4 more of these hills on that ride, but this one is the best example.

I usually look at my hill intervals from the point at which the watts line crosses above the speed line, and until they cross back under again.

FTP (as measured from my most recent 20 mile TT) is 208. Weight is 61 kg.

This interval worked out to be pretty close to FTP*120%

Any cracks about how low my power numbers are will be summarily ignored.

I am only interested in improving relative to my OWN numbers

 

[Porkyboy]

I am only interested in improving relative to my OWN numbers

Quite right too...

PBUK

 

[Porkyboy]

Hi

I've tolerated twice per week for a few weeks (not fun). I'd leave room (motivation) in the schedule for continued L4/SST work during this period as well, so don't max out on L5.

Thanks, really glad people don't seem, so far, to be wading in with 3-4 of these sessions per week! I'm currently working generally along the following lines, any thoughts welcome.

Mon: Rest
Tue: L5 4x4
Wed: Rest
Thu: L4 2x20
Fri: SST 2x20
Sat: Long - 4-5 Hrs, 50% L3
Sun: L3 2x25

Thursday about to become 2nd weekly L5 session, planning to try to do them 2x weekly for 2-3 months.

Cheers,

PBUK

 

[Steve_B]

You can see the cadence is about 50.

That's a bit low. It's not mandatory but it's probably better to be able to do at least 60 rpm or better. I don't think it matters from a training adaptation standpoint (Watts are Watts), just physiological and, of course, saving your knees too. You don't normally ride at 50 rpm, do you? No, of course not.

Do you have a less steep hill to do these on? Can you try to find something that lets you do these at a more normal cadence?

 

[bigwillie013]

@pbuk:
I was just going to enter a new reply into your last L5 Interval post about the fact that I thought the schedule of 2*L5 per week might be too much. Having read a few posts about this topic I had made my mind set for only once a week. And I'm definitely not a whimp
As already said in this post it's both physically and mentally demanding.

Here's btw a screenshot of my last L5 workout, speaking about the abilities of indoor vs. outdoor workouts and maybe to coast/relax for a while....as you can see (at least that's what I see ...) Watts are fairly straight and HR isn't coming up to the initial level... That's as I said normal for me with L4 - L6 intervals. In L2 - 3 my HR shows a bit of drag upwards.

 

[jD_Empath]

My normal climbing cadence for seated riding is about 77-83. Ordinary hills that require some standing and grinding are about 60. That particular hill is just one example of an extreme case. Rest assured I was using my arms to pull on the bars for each stroke too!


Here is an example of a more "normal" training climb where I was seated, including the little "breather" section where it flattens out in the middle. You can see where I stood up a few times and the cadence goes down. Power output is above threshold, but not quite as much as the other effort (this is also partly due to some "resting" in the middle flat section) and the interval is 10 minutes or so. It's one of the longer climbs in the area, but never gets above 10%.

In a race, I tend to stay seated for the entire time, unless there is a real attack going on, in which case I tend to push at least 70rpm while standing climbing.

That's a bit low. It's not mandatory but it's probably better to be able to do at least 60 rpm or better. I don't think it matters from a training adaptation standpoint (Watts are Watts), just physiological and, of course, saving your knees too. You don't normally ride at 50 rpm, do you? No, of course not.

Do you have a less steep hill to do these on? Can you try to find something that lets you do these at a more normal cadence?

 

[Porkyboy]

Hi BW

@pbuk:
I was just going to enter a new reply into your last L5 Interval post about the fact that I thought the schedule of 2*L5 per week might be too much. Having read a few posts about this topic I had made my mind set for only once a week. And I'm definitely not a whimp
As already said in this post it's both physically and mentally demanding.

Here's btw a screenshot of my last L5 workout, speaking about the abilities of indoor vs. outdoor workouts and maybe to coast/relax for a while....as you can see (at least that's what I see ...) Watts are fairly straight and HR isn't coming up to the initial level... That's as I said normal for me with L4 - L6 intervals. In L2 - 3 my HR shows a bit of drag upwards.

I've looked at the file and I have a couple of observations which may or may not be of use or be valid. It appears to me that your recoveries are in some cases pretty long. In addition to being comparatively long, for the descending period you have effectively no load on at all or a very low load, this will allow enormous recovery.

I may be wrong but my understanding of this is that this would allow a considerable opportunity for you to recover your anaerobic capacity (ATP is regenerated very quickly), which may in turn reduce the aerobic component of each subsequent effort than would be the case without the coasting period.

This is one of the reasons I use my turbo, the rest period between efforts is ridden @ 175W for the full recovery period (4 minutes) allowing less recovery of my anaerobic potential and I hope ensuring that I get more VO2 Max bang for my buck for my subsequent efforts, even though they are more uncomfortable!

Others may not agree but that's why I'm going do them this way, I'll see if it works!

Regards,

PBUK