L5, workout RPE, and power profiling

[DancenMacabre]

1 - Has anyone done a solid 6 week block (e.g., 2x/week) of L5 work and seen only minimal gains to their workout interval power? When I say minimal I mean on the order of < 10 watts. Keep in mind, I'm very much on the new side of things + I was not letting CTL drop during said L5 block, if anything I bumped it up a smidge. This isn't a suggestion that I've reached a long-term plateau in 5m power, but at least a good case for a short term peak/plateau in that area.

2 - A little a la carte ordering now has L5 completely off my menu and in its place is L6. I'm using near complete rest (5min @ 55-60% btwn intervals) as this is a peaking phase for me so the goal is to increase 1MMP rather than the depth of my AC. So far, I've found sessions of 10-11 x 1m WI @ 150-160% FT to be easier, from an RPE standpoint than any L5 workout (be it 6 x 4 or 5 x 5) I did. I might even say it is easier than 2 x 20 @ 100% FT. 60min NP = FT for the L6 session was never easy, but certainly less painful than trying to grind out 60 minutes at 100% FT. For those that care to comment, how would you rate the relative difficulty of your L6-L5-L4 sessions?

3 - Normally the all-arounder profile is one where the values on the 4 columns are within a few rows of each other. Yet, I'm starting to think that for an all-arounder profile with all values in a certain category, perhaps the "good" or "very good" (e.g., cat 3, cat 2), that having 5 second & 1 minute power in said range, probably makes that person more of a sprinter or short term power (1 min) type rider relative to their peers. I say that as I know a) the top of the 5 second & 1 minute columns on the profile come from trackies and from the book which suggests most road riders will never reach anywhere near the tops of those....plus, a tidbit from power profiling in general, b) Given the fact that only specialists will likely truly excel at the extreme durations, very few individuals will show this pattern and still fall at the upper end of each range. ...My other hunch was that the further you progress in most cycling disciplines, (re: RR's, crits, TT's), the more such events favor people with left-upward sloping profiles (TT & Climber profiles). In short, in cat 3/4/5, I can see easily conceive of many all-arounder types, but I've got a feeling that beyond that, you see less and less of the all-arounder, and more of the specialized profile types, especially the ones with the highest values on the right. Another way or parsing all this might be: how high on the two left columns, would you expect most road racers to be, say those that race in cat 2-3?

 

[frenchyge]

This doesn't exactly answer your question but consider that if you pulled a random person out of line at the WalMart and put them on a bike, they've got a pretty decent chance of hitting the good range for 5sec power and almost zero chance of hitting the good range for 5-60 mins.

 

[smaryka]

In short, in cat 3/4/5, I can see easily conceive of many all-arounder types, but I've got a feeling that beyond that, you see less and less of the all-arounder, and more of the specialized profile types, especially the ones with the highest values on the right. Another way or parsing all this might be: how high on the two left columns, would you expect most road racers to be, say those that race in cat 2-3?

N=1 here but as an upper-level racer I consider myself an all-rounder for the most part (though my sprint is improving!) and my profile is distinctly an upside-down V. Tbh I've yet to kill myself for 60 min straight either in a race or training -- my one 25 mile TT last year was done on tired legs so the power numbers were quite down, and any RR breaks I've been in lasted less than an hour -- but even on my best day I still wouldn't expect to see my FT range bettering my 1-min and 5-min on Coggan's scale.

I would expect to see "most" road racers with a similar profile to mine, as road racing demands shorter efforts than say TTing. Someone with a relative weak 5-sec and 1-min end of the scale at the amateur level would have to pick their races carefully and work hard on positioning and tactics to get into breaks, otherwise they'd never get results. And of course, since moving up categories comes from gaining points, i.e., getting results, I would guess the upper level cats would need to be more all-rounders?

 

[lanierb]

I would expect to see "most" road racers with a similar profile to mine, as road racing demands shorter efforts than say TTing. Someone with a relative weak 5-sec and 1-min end of the scale at the amateur level would have to pick their races carefully and work hard on positioning and tactics to get into breaks, otherwise they'd never get results. And of course, since moving up categories comes from gaining points, i.e., getting results, I would guess the upper level cats would need to be more all-rounders?

I think this depends a lot on the terrain where you live. Right now I live in CT and there are a lot of short steep hills, so you need good 1m and even 5m power to make the selections. 5s power is less important. The best sprinters usually don't make it to the end because they get seriously dumped on the 4m hill. (We're talking road races not crits here.)

I lived in CA for a bunch of years before that and it varied from race to race, but in general the hills there were longer and farther apart so a high FTP was pretty important. One local race (road race not a hill climb) started with a 20+ mile mountain that the very fastest guys could get up in about 60m (Mt Hamilton Classic : Home). Obviously the FTP w/kg column ruled there, and the sprint column was essentially irrelevant as the finish was typically done solo or in a very small group.

And of course in other parts of the country the sprinters rule.

 

[DancenMacabre]

Frenchyge: Unbeknownst to them, countless plausible sprint champions prowl the aisles of Walmart Know what you mean, truly I do. The 5 sec column might easily be relabeled 'how fast-twitch are your parents' with the added caveat of 'and it only takes 5 seconds to find out even if you are sedentary & out of shape'.

Smaryka: Upside down V, that is, a pursuiter profile I believe correct? For races with a few climbs at 8 minutes or less or with a finish on a similar climb, this has got to be one of the better power profiles to possess. Not to mention for track pursuiting too

Lanierb: Good one Not high enough FTP would get someone shelled instantly in the Mt. Hamilton classic. That's one long slog up that hill! Get outside of california though and it can change like you say. I have spoken with a few 3.5 w/kg cat II-III folks as well as a couple of 4-4.2 cat I's. These people know how to pick their races, have hella strong shorter term power, and tend to live outside the super competitive racing areas of the country.

All: Observation is that in most groups I've ridden in/with (composed of peers that is), is that my 5s/1m power is typically much higher than that of others, while FTP comparisons vary. That might be a function of build since they are almost always much smaller than me. I think there's some correlation with size, at least muscle size that is, and anaerobic capacity. It also might be why I see quite a few of the smaller women who have very high w/kg numbers, that metric seems to favor those that are more petite.

Another thing - any thoughts on L6 RPE vs that of other workouts (L4 & L5)? And on the L5 plateau?

 

[lanierb]

Another thing - any thoughts on L6 RPE vs that of other workouts (L4 & L5)? And on the L5 plateau?

Without knowing all the details other than what I've picked up from a few of your posts, I'm going to guess that the L5 plateau is you being constantly tired. I find L5 requires good rest, and it sounds to me like you're keeping up a pretty good schedule on top of it. My money says two easy weeks and your 5m power will skyrocket.

 

[mikesaif]

Frenchyge: Unbeknownst to them, countless plausible sprint champions prowl the aisles of Walmart Know what you mean, truly I do. The 5 sec column might easily be relabeled 'how fast-twitch are your parents' with the added caveat of 'and it only takes 5 seconds to find out even if you are sedentary & out of shape'.

Smaryka: Upside down V, that is, a pursuiter profile I believe correct? For races with a few climbs at 8 minutes or less or with a finish on a similar climb, this has got to be one of the better power profiles to possess. Not to mention for track pursuiting too

Lanierb: Good one Not high enough FTP would get someone shelled instantly in the Mt. Hamilton classic. That's one long slog up that hill! Get outside of california though and it can change like you say. I have spoken with a few 3.5 w/kg cat II-III folks as well as a couple of 4-4.2 cat I's. These people know how to pick their races, have hella strong shorter term power, and tend to live outside the super competitive racing areas of the country.

All: Observation is that in most groups I've ridden in/with (composed of peers that is), is that my 5s/1m power is typically much higher than that of others, while FTP comparisons vary. That might be a function of build since they are almost always much smaller than me. I think there's some correlation with size, at least muscle size that is, and anaerobic capacity. It also might be why I see quite a few of the smaller women who have very high w/kg numbers, that metric seems to favor those that are more petite.

Another thing - any thoughts on L6 RPE vs that of other workouts (L4 & L5)? And on the L5 plateau?

I only really have to RPE's. Hard and easy. Hard is for all L4, 5, 6 & 7 workouts. and easy for tempo, endurance and recovery rides. I guess it's just a different kind of hard for the L4 - L7 workouts. For instance L4, I don't have to kill myself during the interval but I only get 5 min rest in between intervals. L6, I have to kill myself during the interval but they are only short. So they are both hard to me but a different kind of hard.

 

[frenchyge]

Another thing - any thoughts on L6 RPE vs that of other workouts (L4 & L5)? And on the L5 plateau?

For me, L6 efforts don't really have time to hurt. It's more like I don't realize exactly how screwed up my body is until I stop, and then suddenly feel like I'm going to blackout and have to put my head down on the stem for a minute. After that, I feel fine again.

I'd rate my RPE for L5 workouts higher than I would for L6. For L6 I usually do something like 3x1min with 1min rests, then a couple extra minutes, then repeat twice more.

 

[DancenMacabre]

Without knowing all the details other than what I've picked up from a few of your posts, I'm going to guess that the L5 plateau is you being constantly tired. I find L5 requires good rest, and it sounds to me like you're keeping up a pretty good schedule on top of it. My money says two easy weeks and your 5m power will skyrocket.

Lanierb: Boo yeah! If only this potential 5m power skyrocketing would happen I'm not so sure though. I realize I'm almost surely overreaching a bit - as expected in the middle of a hard training block with plenty of high intensity workouts & a steady or increasing CTL. Normally I think when you overreach that you are still building plenty of fitness, but I have my doubts when it comes to vo2max/L5 work. I believe from my reading on the subject, that there's no real or proven thesis on exactly what mechanism improves vo2max (whether it be time @ vo2max, frequency of reaching vo2max, or a certain cardiac output, etc). Still, I'm left thinking that the determinants of vo2max improvements are a bit more specific than more conventional L3/L4 type workouts. Which makes me wonder if I am reaching those determinants in the aforementioned overreached state...

I only really have to RPE's. Hard and easy. Hard is for all L4, 5, 6 & 7 workouts. and easy for tempo, endurance and recovery rides. I guess it's just a different kind of hard for the L4 - L7 workouts. For instance L4, I don't have to kill myself during the interval but I only get 5 min rest in between intervals. L6, I have to kill myself during the interval but they are only short. So they are both hard to me but a different kind of hard.

Mike: You won't get any argument from me on that. I've discovered that L4-L6 training on a bicycle is like going to an ice cream shop with 32 flavors. Unfortunately they appear to be out of all flavors save one: PAIN But hey, if it hurts then it must be good for you right? Perhaps best not to answer that...

For me, L6 efforts don't really have time to hurt. It's more like I don't realize exactly how screwed up my body is until I stop, and then suddenly feel like I'm going to blackout and have to put my head down on the stem for a minute. After that, I feel fine again.

I'd rate my RPE for L5 workouts higher than I would for L6. For L6 I usually do something like 3x1min with 1min rests, then a couple extra minutes, then repeat twice more.

Frenchyge: Always pleased to get your input and feedback, thanks for chiming in Your description of these efforts sure sounds a lot what I experienced. IOW, sure there is pain during the effort, especially the last 30 seconds, but it is the seconds after the interval that might be the worst. You know, the head on stem, darth vader breathing moments?

3 x 1m WI with only 1m rest? Oh my, that's a big RPE resetter, maybe not Tabata big, but close. I'm working more on increasing anaerobic power than building anaerobic capacity, (I may have misstated the object of my training earlier), so as compared to your L6 bouts, my 5m rests have me lower on my personal RPE scale, but with higher workout interval power than I would on shorter rests. Again, expected given the workout structure....

 

[daveryanwyoming]

For me, L6 efforts don't really have time to hurt. It's more like I don't realize exactly how screwed up my body is until I stop, and then suddenly feel like I'm going to blackout and have to put my head down on the stem for a minute. After that, I feel fine again. ....

Agreed, that's more or less my experience as well. The minute of L6 work feels long but not nearly as long as 4 or 5 minutes of L5 work and the real impact hits in the final 10 or 15 seconds but then I get to stop and recover...

-Dave

 

[frenchyge]

3 x 1m WI with only 1m rest? Oh my, that's a big RPE resetter, maybe not Tabata big, but close. I'm working more on increasing anaerobic power than building anaerobic capacity, (I may have misstated the object of my training earlier), so as compared to your L6 bouts, my 5m rests have me lower on my personal RPE scale, but with higher workout interval power than I would on shorter rests. Again, expected given the workout structure....

Hard to say what that distinction really means, as 1min power is already a blend of neuromuscular power + fatigue resistance/anaerobic energy supply. So, if you wanted to increase your 1min output you could do sprints or jumps for nm power, or do longer high power efforts to try to increase fatigue resistance or provide a bigger anaerobic tank. If I'm reading you right, it sounds like your thinking is that 1min intervals with full rest would be placing more emphasis on nm power and less on fatigue resistance or glycolytic production.

My thinking is that it takes me a couple high power minutes to get the fatiguing sensation up to the point where it starts to feel limiting, and that's when I take the longer rests. The quick rests between reps are for alactacid recovery so that the very high output can be sustained longer (if the graph below can be believed. source: Oxygen Debt)

BTW, I think we're saying roughly the same thing..... only I have a picture.

 

[midlife]

For me, L6 efforts don't really have time to hurt. It's more like I don't realize exactly how screwed up my body is until I stop, and then suddenly feel like I'm going to blackout and have to put my head down on the stem for a minute. After that, I feel fine again.

I'd rate my RPE for L5 workouts higher than I would for L6. For L6 I usually do something like 3x1min with 1min rests, then a couple extra minutes, then repeat twice more.

Note to self : HTFU

 

[DancenMacabre]

Hard to say what that distinction really means, as 1min power is already a blend of neuromuscular power + fatigue resistance/anaerobic energy supply. So, if you wanted to increase your 1min output you could do sprints or jumps for nm power, or do longer high power efforts to try to increase fatigue resistance or provide a bigger anaerobic tank. If I'm reading you right, it sounds like your thinking is that 1min intervals with full rest would be placing more emphasis on nm power and less on fatigue resistance or glycolytic production.

My thinking is that it takes me a couple high power minutes to get the fatiguing sensation up to the point where it starts to feel limiting, and that's when I take the longer rests. The quick rests between reps are for alactacid recovery so that the very high output can be sustained longer (if the graph below can be believed. source: Oxygen Debt)

BTW, I think we're saying roughly the same thing..... only I have a picture.

In any kind of debate, discussion, or argument, always tout the person with the picture, right?

My understanding of the topic based on reading is that doing L6 work with incomplete or abbreviated rest between intervals, makes each interval a) more aerobically-fueled which may sound contrary but it helps in that b) it stacks metabolic stress in such a way that you dig a deeper hole, so to speak in terms of MAOD, which can help increase anaerobic capacity or what some people call anaerobic tolerance. They also likely have some vo2 stimulii given the nature of oxygen uptake with such short rests and how they sort of mimic Billat's well-known 30-30 program.

I know you lengthen the rest periods as you progress in your L6 sessions, so understandably the above does not exactly describe your approach.

Whereas if the same intervals are done with much longer rest (as I'm doing them), then I feel each intervals starts to almost become a separate 'mini' session in and of itself. So far I've found that this approach allows me to maintain the highest power for each interval (well over 150% of FT). Given my goal of increasing the anaerobic power component of 1 MMP, this is the modus of training I've opted for. Given this is season 1 for me, (both of training & racing), I'm certain I'll refine and learn from this experience.

So far I've not heavily 'front-loaded' these intervals (aka: no big 10-15 second sprint at the start), rather I've opted for a mini-sprint of ~200% of FT for the first 10 seconds or so before settling into them. I may experiment and opt for that approach too though as there are many, many ways to perform these intervals.

Since you're one up on me with that jpeg, I'll attempt to draw one with words and say, shorter rests for L6 work might be akin to increasing the length of the 'anaerobic energy wave' while longer, more complete rests might do more to increase the amplitude of said wave. Crude? Definitely but hopefully somewhat accurate although I imagine both approaches to L6 training (longer vs. shorter rests) probably create many overlapping adaptations.



Ultimately what matters I presume is much more that you do these types of intervals if/when desiring a peak, than exactly how one does them.

Yes? No? Have I lost it completely? Sine wave or cosine wave?

 

[frenchyge]

Yes.

Individual characteristics probably factor into fine-tuning the workout too. For instance, even with my shorter rests I'm averaging over 170% on the first rep, and when I can no longer hold 150% for a rep then I go home. If I needed more rest to make that happen, then I'd probably take it too. YMMV.