LA quads



M

matabala

Guest
Anyone catch the slo-mo shots of LA approaching the finish (french tv)? The
muscular development in his quads is beyond impressive, always has been I
suppose. What was more interesting was the same view showing JU and his
decidedly less "pumped" quads, cut but not near as voluminous. Anatomy and
morphology for Dummies, please?
 
matabala wrote:
> Anyone catch the slo-mo shots of LA approaching the finish (french tv)? The
> muscular development in his quads is beyond impressive, always has been I
> suppose. What was more interesting was the same view showing JU and his
> decidedly less "pumped" quads, cut but not near as voluminous. Anatomy and
> morphology for Dummies, please?
A dummy here:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/lonnie7.htm
Another sad story.
Bill C
 
matabala wrote:
> Anyone catch the slo-mo shots of LA approaching the finish (french
> tv)? The muscular development in his quads is beyond impressive,
> always has been I suppose. What was more interesting was the same
> view showing JU and his decidedly less "pumped" quads, cut but not
> near as voluminous. Anatomy and morphology for Dummies, please?

Quads extend the knee (and one flexes the hip joint, but less important).

Gluteus maximus extend the hip, hamstrings extend the hip and flex the knee.

Most of your power output comes from extending the hip and knee joints; a
little comes from knee flexion and a little from hip flexion (despite all
the 'pedal in circles' stuff, this is not what elite cyclists actually do:
they just mash harder than mere mortals).

So individuals may produce more power through the hips (Obree for example)
which will tend to result in larger glutes+hams, or through knee extension
which will tend to result in larger quads. This will depend on your posture
on the bike.

But mostly I'd guess it's just that LA's genetics involve larger quads, and
JU's tend towards a larger (or occasionally fatter) ass.

Peter
 
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:37:21 +0100, "Peter Allen"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>matabala wrote:
>> Anyone catch the slo-mo shots of LA approaching the finish (french
>> tv)? The muscular development in his quads is beyond impressive,
>> always has been I suppose. What was more interesting was the same
>> view showing JU and his decidedly less "pumped" quads, cut but not
>> near as voluminous. Anatomy and morphology for Dummies, please?
>
>Quads extend the knee (and one flexes the hip joint, but less important).
>
>Gluteus maximus extend the hip, hamstrings extend the hip and flex the knee.
>
>Most of your power output comes from extending the hip and knee joints; a
>little comes from knee flexion and a little from hip flexion (despite all
>the 'pedal in circles' stuff, this is not what elite cyclists actually do:
>they just mash harder than mere mortals).
>
>So individuals may produce more power through the hips (Obree for example)
>which will tend to result in larger glutes+hams, or through knee extension
>which will tend to result in larger quads. This will depend on your posture
>on the bike.
>
>But mostly I'd guess it's just that LA's genetics involve larger quads, and
>JU's tend towards a larger (or occasionally fatter) ass.
>
>Peter

Almost all pro cyclists have a very large inner quads, vastus medialus, and
a well-developed rectus femoris. I don't know of a single male pro biker
that has over-developed glutes. That's slightly surprising since as you say
the glutes extend the hip.

Here's a diagram:

http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/Quadriceps.html

They also have extremely well-developed calves, upper and inner. That
muscle contributes quite a bit to the pedalling motion it seems.

In myself, a former amateur bodybuilder, the muscle that has developed
quite alot is the hamstrings. My hamstrings are much bigger than they were
when I was doing a lot of weight training.

My biceps femoris long and short heads are substantial - people have
commented on it when I ride. Not sure if that's good or bad, lol.

http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/Hamstrings.html

I'm starting to get a little bit of that teardrop shape in my lower inner
quads. Seem to be a matter of intensity of effort, than duration. My glutes
haven't gotten any bigger that I can tell. For some reason my arms have
gotten bigger (dammit). ;-)

Uh, oddly when I overextend myself the mucles that tend to act up (as in
cramp) are the inner thighs. Man, that -really- hurts when those things
cramp up. Might be the Gracilus muscle. Those are probably strongly
stressed as stabilizers when you're pedalling, keeping your knees in and
not flared out. Not sure.

jj
 
"Peter Allen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> (despite all the 'pedal in circles' stuff, this is not what elite cyclists
> actually do: they just mash harder than mere mortals).

Actually no they don't. They spin circles. When you get in racing shape you
can actually feel the quads most especially when you're accelerating. You
don't use them HARD all the time but you use them all the time. After you
quit racing you can tell after about a year that your quads aren't working
anymore.
 
Tom Kunich wrote:
> "Peter Allen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > (despite all the 'pedal in circles' stuff, this is not what elite cyclists
> > actually do: they just mash harder than mere mortals).
>
> Actually no they don't. They spin circles. When you get in racing shape you
> can actually feel the quads most especially when you're accelerating. You
> don't use them HARD all the time but you use them all the time. After you
> quit racing you can tell after about a year that your quads aren't working
> anymore.
Agreed Tom
One of the biggest problems that I'm having currently is my hamstrings
failing and cramping from pulling through and around. I deal with this
by changing my pedaling to mashing instead, which stresses the quads,
but is massively less efficient.
Bill C
 
Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
:> Tom Kunich wrote:
:> > "Peter Allen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
:> > news:[email protected]...
:> > > (despite all the 'pedal in circles' stuff, this is not what
:> > > elite cyclists actually do: they just mash harder than mere
:> > > mortals).
:> >
:> > Actually no they don't. They spin circles. When you get in racing
:> > shape you can actually feel the quads most especially when you're
:> > accelerating. You don't use them HARD all the time but you use
:> > them all the time. After you quit racing you can tell after about
:> > a year that your quads aren't working anymore.
:> Agreed Tom
:> One of the biggest problems that I'm having currently is my
:> hamstrings failing and cramping from pulling through and around. I
:> deal with this
:> by changing my pedaling to mashing instead, which stresses the quads,
:> but is massively less efficient.
:> Bill C

I can't figure out if you spin in circles or mash...I do find from personal
experience that spinning in circles (using the hams more to pull through and
around) takes more energy and gets me moving faster. But I've heard some on
usenet say that's not what is supposed to be done....what's the deal?
 
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:44:26 -0400, "Roger Zoul" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>:> Tom Kunich wrote:
>:> > "Peter Allen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>:> > news:[email protected]...
>:> > > (despite all the 'pedal in circles' stuff, this is not what
>:> > > elite cyclists actually do: they just mash harder than mere
>:> > > mortals).
>:> >
>:> > Actually no they don't. They spin circles. When you get in racing
>:> > shape you can actually feel the quads most especially when you're
>:> > accelerating. You don't use them HARD all the time but you use
>:> > them all the time. After you quit racing you can tell after about
>:> > a year that your quads aren't working anymore.
>:> Agreed Tom
>:> One of the biggest problems that I'm having currently is my
>:> hamstrings failing and cramping from pulling through and around. I
>:> deal with this
>:> by changing my pedaling to mashing instead, which stresses the quads,
>:> but is massively less efficient.
>:> Bill C
>
>I can't figure out if you spin in circles or mash...I do find from personal
>experience that spinning in circles (using the hams more to pull through and
>around) takes more energy and gets me moving faster. But I've heard some on
>usenet say that's not what is supposed to be done....what's the deal?

I like the mental imagery of imagining the road is molten and my toes are
in risk of getting burned. Just as you would jerk your hand away from a hot
stove, so it is with your toes/feet - but more smoothly. Sounds silly, but
try it. When you think about it, at the same time think pushing your knees
toward the handlebar. I don't do it every time - maybe twice a week. It's a
hoot the way the moment I think of this imagery my cadence jumps way up
even when I'm tired, lol.

In general, though when I'm riding intervals and trying to ride as fast as
possible at 90 rpm, my entire leg is strongly involved including the
hamstrings and calves - I can't help it. I'm so involved in keeping the
speed up I don't have time to think about my pedalling.

The problem seems to come when you're cruising and there's a tendency to
'think' about your feet going around. Here I just think 'relax' and I go
over the body to find tense areas and reduce the tension - bend the arms
more, etc.

I've started doing a lot more hill climbing standing - at least two of my
sessions per week I do all the foot hills on my route standing, trying to
attack but be light.

I'm still doing the 15min stationary bike warm up - that seems to be
working out well. I start my ride already slightly pumped up - feels great.

jj
 
"Jet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:37:21 +0100, "Peter Allen"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >matabala wrote:
> >> Anyone catch the slo-mo shots of LA approaching the finish (french
> >> tv)? The muscular development in his quads is beyond impressive,
> >> always has been I suppose. What was more interesting was the same
> >> view showing JU and his decidedly less "pumped" quads, cut but not
> >> near as voluminous. Anatomy and morphology for Dummies, please?
> >
> >Quads extend the knee (and one flexes the hip joint, but less important).
> >
> >Gluteus maximus extend the hip, hamstrings extend the hip and flex the
knee.
> >
> >Most of your power output comes from extending the hip and knee joints; a
> >little comes from knee flexion and a little from hip flexion (despite all
> >the 'pedal in circles' stuff, this is not what elite cyclists actually
do:
> >they just mash harder than mere mortals).
> >
> >So individuals may produce more power through the hips (Obree for
example)
> >which will tend to result in larger glutes+hams, or through knee
extension
> >which will tend to result in larger quads. This will depend on your
posture
> >on the bike.
> >
> >But mostly I'd guess it's just that LA's genetics involve larger quads,
and
> >JU's tend towards a larger (or occasionally fatter) ass.
> >
> >Peter
>
> Almost all pro cyclists have a very large inner quads, vastus medialus,
and
> a well-developed rectus femoris. I don't know of a single male pro biker
> that has over-developed glutes.

Vino.
 
Roger Zoul wrote:

>
> I can't figure out if you spin in circles or mash...I do find from personal
> experience that spinning in circles (using the hams more to pull through and
> around) takes more energy and gets me moving faster. But I've heard some on
> usenet say that's not what is supposed to be done....what's the deal?
I try very hard to ride circles, and the Germans we rode with were
fanatical about it. They are still really into fixed gear bikes for the
spring etc...Where I can really feel it is on climbs, and it's easier,
for me, to feel the muscles working all the way around the stroke. When
I'm dying I just concentrate on good form and it goes a lot better. I
never did get the "ankling" part down well enough to make the Germans
happy, but they are still big believers in "suppleness" and smooth
peddling. I think I was just like a trained seal, in that I could at
least get some of it right.
Right now my back is a mess, and after about 1 1/2 hours it really
starts to get irritated, and the first nerves to get hit are to the
back of my legs.
Brian's been with me when it happens, I have a hard time just bringing
the feet back up and around, let alone pulling. So I have to just mash
for a while until it either gets a little better or limp home.
It's really about that effortless looking style that used to be a lot
more common, especially among the European riders. Don't know how it
breaks down scientifically, but it really feels better for me.
Bill C
 
On 23 Jul 2005 19:18:20 -0700, "Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
>Roger Zoul wrote:
>
>>
>> I can't figure out if you spin in circles or mash...I do find from personal
>> experience that spinning in circles (using the hams more to pull through and
>> around) takes more energy and gets me moving faster. But I've heard some on
>> usenet say that's not what is supposed to be done....what's the deal?
> I try very hard to ride circles, and the Germans we rode with were
>fanatical about it. They are still really into fixed gear bikes for the
>spring etc...Where I can really feel it is on climbs, and it's easier,
>for me, to feel the muscles working all the way around the stroke. When
>I'm dying I just concentrate on good form and it goes a lot better. I
>never did get the "ankling" part down well enough to make the Germans
>happy, but they are still big believers in "suppleness" and smooth
>peddling. I think I was just like a trained seal, in that I could at
>least get some of it right.
> Right now my back is a mess, and after about 1 1/2 hours it really
>starts to get irritated, and the first nerves to get hit are to the
>back of my legs.
> Brian's been with me when it happens, I have a hard time just bringing
>the feet back up and around, let alone pulling. So I have to just mash
>for a while until it either gets a little better or limp home.
> It's really about that effortless looking style that used to be a lot
>more common, especially among the European riders. Don't know how it
>breaks down scientifically, but it really feels better for me.
> Bill C

Back in the day when I used to do some running on the University track,
there was a young woman that would run at the same time.

Watching her run the track was just a delight, a top member of the track
team, long legs with a great loping stride, heels almost touching her butt
with each step - like she was born to run. You could just tell there was no
way that I, a normal human, were ever going to be able to run like that.
For one thing I never had the fitness, even with running 30miles a week at
7min/mile and faster. She never looked bad or out of form even when tired,
it seemed.

jj
 
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:00:51 -0400, Jet<[email protected]> wrote:

Snip
>
>Uh, oddly when I overextend myself the mucles that tend to act up (as in
>cramp) are the inner thighs. Man, that -really- hurts when those things
>cramp up. Might be the Gracilus muscle. Those are probably strongly
>stressed as stabilizers when you're pedalling, keeping your knees in and
>not flared out. Not sure.
>
>jj

That's my most frightening cramp mode. Off road riding tends to aggravate it the
most and I suspect you're right about the cause. I've not had it lock up real
bad on me, but it's threatened to on a few occasions and really gets my
attention.

"No salt" washed down with pickle juice.

Ron
 
Even better when you're in a restaurant eating after a race: a severe
cramp hits you and you damn near knock the table over and the other
patrons look over like you're having a seizure.
 
On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 03:28:08 GMT, RonSonic <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:00:51 -0400, Jet<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Snip
>>
>>Uh, oddly when I overextend myself the mucles that tend to act up (as in
>>cramp) are the inner thighs. Man, that -really- hurts when those things
>>cramp up. Might be the Gracilus muscle. Those are probably strongly
>>stressed as stabilizers when you're pedalling, keeping your knees in and
>>not flared out. Not sure.
>>
>>jj
>
>That's my most frightening cramp mode. Off road riding tends to aggravate it the
>most and I suspect you're right about the cause. I've not had it lock up real
>bad on me, but it's threatened to on a few occasions and really gets my
>attention.

It happens at surprising times, like when I bend my leg and kneel on the
bed at night, next thing I know its cramping and I'm jumping out of bed and
hopping around trying to straighten my leg. One time it happened and my
foot was caught in the sheet and I couldn't sit up or get out of bed or
anything and my wife was laughing her ass off, unaware of how scary it is
to have the gracilis and/or the sartorius muscle cramp. I was even
hollering at her to help me - which only made her laugh harder, dammit. ;-)

jj

>
>"No salt" washed down with pickle juice.
>
>Ron
 
Tom Kunich says...

>Peter Allen wrote...

>>(despite all the 'pedal in circles' stuff, this is not what elite cyclists
>>actually do: they just mash harder than mere mortals).

>Actually no they don't. They spin circles.

But, Tom, you gotta admit that there is significant variation even among the top
pro riders on technique, especially when they get stressed. Jan seems to
maintain circles very well under a variety of conditions. Looking at today's
TT, I saw sections where Lance was adding some extra mash to the circle, as he
tends to do from time to time.

Who makes (made?) that crankset where the two crank arms can be unlocked? I've
seen plenty of riders talk about pedaling in circles only to have trouble not
falling off a bike with that crank. Back in the late 70's or early 80's, there
was a TV show about the bike pedal sensor that determined the direction and
power load on the pedal as a function of position on the stroke. The results
were surprising - many successful racers got much more power out of the mash
than they thought they did. But it shouldn't be all that surprising since
mashing is a natural motion you use all the time to walk up stairs, etc.

>When you get in racing shape you can actually feel the quads most especially
>when you're accelerating.

Back in the distant past, I knew I was coming into condition when the muscles
around the knee that you pull down and back and up across with started to feel
stronger and gain endurance. Then the spin would be much smoother at higher
cadence. These days, I'm just happy when it doesn't hurt to put my shoes on.
 
Jet wrote:
> Almost all pro cyclists have a very large inner quads, vastus
> medialus, and a well-developed rectus femoris. I don't know of a
> single male pro biker that has over-developed glutes. That's slightly
> surprising since as you say the glutes extend the hip.

Track sprinters. Plus big glutes are a lot less obvious than big quads.

Peter
 
Tom Kunich wrote:
> "Peter Allen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> (despite all the 'pedal in circles' stuff, this is not what elite
>> cyclists actually do: they just mash harder than mere mortals).
>
> Actually no they don't. They spin circles. When you get in racing
> shape you can actually feel the quads most especially when you're
> accelerating. You don't use them HARD all the time but you use them
> all the time. After you quit racing you can tell after about a year
> that your quads aren't working anymore.

With regard to the spin circles bit - someone, probably Andy Coggan, posted
a study showing that no cyclists really pedal in circles; mountain bikers
come closest because it helps them keep traction, but elite road cyclists do
most of the work pushing down on the pedals, a little bit kicking forwards
and pulling back, and only pull up enough to lift the leg, not provide any
significant power (of course that changes when accelerating sharply).

With regards to the quads bit, which isn't relevant to the first two
sentences - yes, I know, what's your point?

Peter
 
On 23 Jul 2005 20:43:52 -0700, "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Even better when you're in a restaurant eating after a race: a severe
>cramp hits you and you damn near knock the table over and the other
>patrons look over like you're having a seizure.

I worried that might happen to me whild driving one day....

JT


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John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On 23 Jul 2005 20:43:52 -0700, "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Even better when you're in a restaurant eating after a race: a severe
>>cramp hits you and you damn near knock the table over and the other
>>patrons look over like you're having a seizure.
>
>
> I worried that might happen to me whild driving one day....

yeah, i used to always cramp up in the thighs while trying to get into
my car after a long day until i switched to a drink that had a lot more
sodium, potassium, calcium, magnesium, and all that other stuff (no i'm
not very scientific). but it was a nervous drive back home for a while.

h
 
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