Labor conditions for Pro Tour riders



S

Sandy

Guest
I was taking a look through a variety of contracts under a variety of
federations, and noticed a significant disparity as to working conditions,
particularly as to hours. I think that this is one significant point in
evaluating whether riders should consider their common interests and develop
a common vehicle and format for model employment arrangements. Here are the
relevant provisions for 3 different national federations for vacation time,
which is of interest, I imagine, to any cyclist.

France - 218 days maximum working days, not more than 6 days per week, and
annual leave equal to five working weeks.

South Africa - 278 maximum working days, not more than 6 days per week, and
annual leave equal to 35 calendar days.

USA - maximum days not numerically limited, unless by federal or state
statute, no maximum days per week, working hours are subject to "salaried
employees" provisions of federal and state legislation.

For reasons too evident to state, national holidays are potential working
days, not otherwise provided for.

So yes, it is obvious why France has not produced a winning population of
riders, if this is the working environment. Nonetheless, there is no
uniformity to be expected by a rider upon transfer from one contractual
jurisdiction to another. I just think that those who fail to see the
fragility of racers' employment situations also fail to understand why they
are encouraged to seek out means of doing beyond their best, regardless of
what their contracts provide.

Much of this appears to me to reflect the type of job insecurity that is
promoted by global companies, which can choose where to employ people by
comparing labor costs (where labor is the dominant basis for their revenues.

I don't imagine there are a lot of readers here who really care, but the
issue keeps me busy.
--
Sandy
--
Il n'est aucune sorte de sensation qui soit plus vive
que celle de la douleur ; ses impressions sont sûres,
elles ne trompent point comme celles du plaisir.
- de Sade.
 
On Mar 24, 8:59 pm, "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Please, unevolved turnip, what wisdom hides in these sage words?
>


dumbass,

if you want to fashion yourself into an expert on pro cycling and
labour laws why don't you read about what the courts actually ruled in
the case of disputes:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/oct07/oct15news

Veneberg to sue Rabobank over contract

Thorwald Veneberg is going to sue Team Rabobank because he has not
been offered a new contract for 2008. The Dutch rider claims that
under Netherlands law that, since he has had a contract with the team
since January 1, 2001, he should be considered under contract for an
indefinite period of time.
....
His lawyer, Frank ter Huurne, said that under Dutch law, an employee
is considered to be hired for an indefinite period after 36 months or
four employment contracts. "The team has not given any grounds for his
dismissal in 2008. For this reason we will file a suit in Breda that
Thorwald must be included in all activities of the Rabo-Team in 2008,"
he told De Telegraaf.

--------------

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/dec07/dec05news2

"Hard reality" for Veneberg

Thorwald Veneberg has run into what a Dutch judge called "the hard
reality of top sport." That judge ruled Wednesday morning that
Veneberg was not entitled to a new contract from Team Rabobank. The
team had not offered him a new contract for the coming season, and he
had contested that decision, saying that under Netherlands' employment
laws, he should be considered under contract for an indefinite period
of time, since he had had a contract with the team since January 1,
2001.
....
According to the Belga press agency, the judge ruled that Veneberg's
contract clearly stated that his services to the team were dependent
based on his performance. The fact that Rabobank no longer wanted to
employ Veneberg is "the hard reality of top sport," the judge said He
ordered that the employment contract would be dissolved by January 1
with no compensation for the rider.
--------------
 
Dans le message de
news:5b25d69d-a291-42cc-a035-8c64f6626d30@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com,
Amit Ghosh <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> On Mar 24, 8:59 pm, "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Please, unevolved turnip, what wisdom hides in these sage words?
>>

>
> dumbass,
>
> if you want to fashion yourself into an expert on pro cycling and
> labour laws why don't you read about what the courts actually ruled in
> the case of disputes:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/oct07/oct15news
>
> Veneberg to sue Rabobank over contract
>
> Thorwald Veneberg is going to sue Team Rabobank because he has not
> been offered a new contract for 2008. The Dutch rider claims that
> under Netherlands law that, since he has had a contract with the team
> since January 1, 2001, he should be considered under contract for an
> indefinite period of time.
> ...
> His lawyer, Frank ter Huurne, said that under Dutch law, an employee
> is considered to be hired for an indefinite period after 36 months or
> four employment contracts. "The team has not given any grounds for his
> dismissal in 2008. For this reason we will file a suit in Breda that
> Thorwald must be included in all activities of the Rabo-Team in 2008,"
> he told De Telegraaf.
>
> --------------
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/dec07/dec05news2
>
> "Hard reality" for Veneberg
>
> Thorwald Veneberg has run into what a Dutch judge called "the hard
> reality of top sport." That judge ruled Wednesday morning that
> Veneberg was not entitled to a new contract from Team Rabobank. The
> team had not offered him a new contract for the coming season, and he
> had contested that decision, saying that under Netherlands' employment
> laws, he should be considered under contract for an indefinite period
> of time, since he had had a contract with the team since January 1,
> 2001.
> ...
> According to the Belga press agency, the judge ruled that Veneberg's
> contract clearly stated that his services to the team were dependent
> based on his performance. The fact that Rabobank no longer wanted to
> employ Veneberg is "the hard reality of top sport," the judge said He
> ordered that the employment contract would be dissolved by January 1
> with no compensation for the rider.
> --------------


There was a point, I guess, to your writing what _you_ did. What was it?
Not professing to be a Dutch lawyer, but knowing just enough to stay out of
trouble, the judge ruled correctly.
Your point?
 
Dans le message de
news:5b25d69d-a291-42cc-a035-8c64f6626d30@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com,
Amit Ghosh <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> On Mar 24, 8:59 pm, "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Please, unevolved turnip, what wisdom hides in these sage words?
>>

>
> dumbass,
>
> if you want to fashion yourself into an expert on pro cycling and
> labour laws why don't you read about what the courts actually ruled in
> the case of disputes:



Forgot .............
Ping ..............
 
On Mar 24, 5:39 pm, Amit Ghosh <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> the festina affair in '98 had a traumatic effect on the french cycling
> community and the lacklustre performance by french riders since is
> explained more by the relative lack of doping in french cycling


<snip>



Dumbass -


I disagree.

The culture, in general, has been in a malaise for some time now. It
goes way beyond bike racing.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.
 
On Mar 24, 11:04 pm, Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 24, 5:39 pm, Amit Ghosh <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > the festina affair in '98 had a traumatic effect on the french cycling
> > community and the lacklustre performance by french riders since is
> > explained more by the relative lack of doping in french cycling

>
> <snip>
>
> Dumbass -
>
> I disagree.
>
> The culture, in general, has been in a malaise for some time now. It
> goes way beyond bike racing.
>
> thanks,
>
> K. Gringioni.


dumbass,

sounds like they need to fry up some panache.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

Cyclevaughters: once I went to CA and saw that now (not) all the teams
got 25 injections every day
Cyclevaughters: hell, CA was ZERO
FDREU: you mean all the riders
Cyclevaughters: Credit Agricole
FDREU: it's crazy
Cyclevaughters: So, I realized lance was full of **** when he'd say
everyone was doing it
FDREU: You may read stuff that i say to radio or press, praising the
Tour and lance but it's just playing the game
Cyclevaughters: believe me, as carzy as it sounds - Moreau was on
nothing. Hct of 39%


the top 3 or 4 french teams also know that they are almost sure to get
a spot in the tour and a doping scandal would be more detrimental than
lousy performance.
 
| the top 3 or 4 french teams also know that they are almost sure to get
| a spot in the tour and a doping scandal would be more detrimental than
| lousy performance.

So the solution to doping in sport is to base entry to an event on something
other than performance?

My guess is that the difference between doping and riding clean isn't
anywhere near the difference seen between the present French teams and those
capable of winning the 'Tour. I don't question that effective doping,
combined with a disciplined structure (strong DS who the riders will die
for), is going to have an advantage. But doping by itself, in my opinion, is
going to determine the outcome less than a strong team (without doping).

What's frequently ignored about Postal/Discovery is that nobody else seemed
to have the drive & dedication to a specific task (winning the TdF) that
they had. Actually that's not true; many saw their single-minded pursuit of
the TdF in a very negative way. But having a team act entirely selflessly
towards the goal of delivering one person to the top podium spot in Paris
was certainly an advantage few, if any other riders, had. Was it enough to
overcome systemic doping without engaging in it themselves? I don't know.
But I do suspect that Postal/Discovery would have been vulnerable had
another team decided to put everything behind winning the 'Tour.

A very long-winded way of saying there's more reasons than a failure to dope
that have kept French teams from dominating the TdF. At the very least I
wouldn't assume a certain level of nobility and innocence based upon their
relative failures.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Amit Ghosh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
| On Mar 24, 11:04 pm, Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:
| > On Mar 24, 5:39 pm, Amit Ghosh <[email protected]> wrote:
| >
| >
| >
| > > the festina affair in '98 had a traumatic effect on the french cycling
| > > community and the lacklustre performance by french riders since is
| > > explained more by the relative lack of doping in french cycling
| >
| > <snip>
| >
| > Dumbass -
| >
| > I disagree.
| >
| > The culture, in general, has been in a malaise for some time now. It
| > goes way beyond bike racing.
| >
| > thanks,
| >
| > K. Gringioni.
|
| dumbass,
|
| sounds like they need to fry up some panache.
|
| http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html
|
| Cyclevaughters: once I went to CA and saw that now (not) all the teams
| got 25 injections every day
| Cyclevaughters: hell, CA was ZERO
| FDREU: you mean all the riders
| Cyclevaughters: Credit Agricole
| FDREU: it's crazy
| Cyclevaughters: So, I realized lance was full of **** when he'd say
| everyone was doing it
| FDREU: You may read stuff that i say to radio or press, praising the
| Tour and lance but it's just playing the game
| Cyclevaughters: believe me, as carzy as it sounds - Moreau was on
| nothing. Hct of 39%
|
|
| the top 3 or 4 french teams also know that they are almost sure to get
| a spot in the tour and a doping scandal would be more detrimental than
| lousy performance.
 
Amit Ghosh wrote:

> On Mar 24, 8:59 pm, "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Please, unevolved turnip, what wisdom hides in these sage words?
>>

>
>
> dumbass,
>
> if you want to fashion yourself into an expert on pro cycling and
> labour laws why don't you read about what the courts actually ruled in
> the case of disputes:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/oct07/oct15news
>
> Veneberg to sue Rabobank over contract
>
> Thorwald Veneberg is going to sue Team Rabobank because he has not
> been offered a new contract for 2008. The Dutch rider claims that
> under Netherlands law that, since he has had a contract with the team
> since January 1, 2001, he should be considered under contract for an
> indefinite period of time.
> ...
> His lawyer, Frank ter Huurne, said that under Dutch law, an employee
> is considered to be hired for an indefinite period after 36 months or
> four employment contracts. "The team has not given any grounds for his
> dismissal in 2008. For this reason we will file a suit in Breda that
> Thorwald must be included in all activities of the Rabo-Team in 2008,"
> he told De Telegraaf.
>
> --------------
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/dec07/dec05news2
>
> "Hard reality" for Veneberg
>
> Thorwald Veneberg has run into what a Dutch judge called "the hard
> reality of top sport." That judge ruled Wednesday morning that
> Veneberg was not entitled to a new contract from Team Rabobank. The
> team had not offered him a new contract for the coming season, and he
> had contested that decision, saying that under Netherlands' employment
> laws, he should be considered under contract for an indefinite period
> of time, since he had had a contract with the team since January 1,
> 2001.
> ...
> According to the Belga press agency, the judge ruled that Veneberg's
> contract clearly stated that his services to the team were dependent
> based on his performance. The fact that Rabobank no longer wanted to
> employ Veneberg is "the hard reality of top sport," the judge said He
> ordered that the employment contract would be dissolved by January 1
> with no compensation for the rider.
> --------------




If you think about how pathetic this lawsuit is had Veneberg prevailed,
it would mean that Rabobank could never fire any rider even if the rider
were 52 years old and got dropped every race. That's not lucid.

This was another lawyer scam but Veneberg is probably too stupid to
realize that.

Magilla
 
In article <07ace063-b39d-4fbe-897a-4feba834ca3a@c19g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Mar 24, 5:39 pm, Amit Ghosh <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> > the festina affair in '98 had a traumatic effect on the french cycling
> > community and the lacklustre performance by french riders since is
> > explained more by the relative lack of doping in french cycling

>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> Dumbass -
>
>
> I disagree.
>
> The culture, in general, has been in a malaise for some time now. It
> goes way beyond bike racing.


NO ONE RIDES A BICYCLE IN FRANCE!!!! TOM SAYS SO, IT MUST BE TRUE!

612 Miles in January!

--
tanx,
Howard

Whatever happened to
Leon Trotsky?
He got an icepick
That made his ears burn.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
> What's frequently ignored about Postal/Discovery is that nobody else seemed
> to have the drive & dedication to a specific task (winning the TdF) that
> they had. Actually that's not true; many saw their single-minded pursuit of
> the TdF in a very negative way. But having a team act entirely selflessly
> towards the goal of delivering one person to the top podium spot in Paris
> was certainly an advantage few, if any other riders, had. Was it enough to
> overcome systemic doping without engaging in it themselves?
>

Thanks for the laugh.
 
On Mar 24, 11:55 pm, Kyle Legate <[email protected]> wrote:
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
> > What's frequently ignored about Postal/Discovery is that nobody else seemed
> > to have the drive & dedication to a specific task (winning the TdF) that
> > they had.  Actually that's not true; many saw their single-minded pursuit of
> > the TdF in a very negative way. But having a team act entirely selflessly
> > towards the goal of delivering one person to the top podium spot in Paris
> > was certainly an advantage few, if any other riders, had. Was it enough to
> > overcome systemic doping without engaging in it themselves?

>
> Thanks for the laugh.




Dumbass -


Postal was still the best. They were the best at gaming the system.

That's what any athletic endeavor is. Football players hold (and
dope), basketball players foul (and dope), soccer players tackle from
behind (and dope), soccer players fake getting fouled (and dope),
hockey players grab and clutch (and dope), cyclists dope.

Everyone games their system.

It's part of our culture. People don't admire good sportsmen/losers.
They admire WINNERS, no matter how ruthless.

It's a shame, but it's the truth.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.
 
Amit Ghosh wrote:
> the festina affair in '98 had a traumatic effect on the french cycling
> community and the lacklustre performance by french riders since is
> explained more by the relative lack of doping in french cycling (there
> were some scandals a with gaumont and some foreign riders on cofidis,
> but no french riders were implicated in puerto, wiener blut, oil for
> drugs, etc.)


The French have had a lot of success on the track at Worlds
and in the Olympics. Track racing doesn't draw much attention
which is a mixed blessing I suppose. But the witch hunters
don't seem interested in checking their mineral water.

Bob Schwartz
 
Bob Schwartz wrote:

>
> The French have had a lot of success on the track at Worlds
> and in the Olympics. Track racing doesn't draw much attention
> which is a mixed blessing I suppose. But the witch hunters
> don't seem interested in checking their mineral water.


They will be in Manchester for the World's starting tomorrow
 
Bob Schwartz wrote:

>
> The French have had a lot of success on the track at Worlds
> and in the Olympics. Track racing doesn't draw much attention
> which is a mixed blessing I suppose. But the witch hunters
> don't seem interested in checking their mineral water.


They will be in Manchester for the World's starting tomorrow
 
Bob Schwartz wrote:

> Amit Ghosh wrote:
>
>> the festina affair in '98 had a traumatic effect on the french cycling
>> community and the lacklustre performance by french riders since is
>> explained more by the relative lack of doping in french cycling (there
>> were some scandals a with gaumont and some foreign riders on cofidis,
>> but no french riders were implicated in puerto, wiener blut, oil for
>> drugs, etc.)

>
>
> The French have had a lot of success on the track at Worlds
> and in the Olympics. Track racing doesn't draw much attention
> which is a mixed blessing I suppose. But the witch hunters
> don't seem interested in checking their mineral water.
>
> Bob Schwartz


Yeah, the "witch hunters" don't really chase after track riders like
Tammy Thomas, Adam Sbeih (tested positive for EPO after US track
nationals), or Stephen Alfred.

Thanks,

Magilla
 
"Kyle Legate" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>
>> What's frequently ignored about Postal/Discovery is that nobody else
>> seemed to have the drive & dedication to a specific task (winning the
>> TdF) that they had. Actually that's not true; many saw their
>> single-minded pursuit of the TdF in a very negative way. But having a
>> team act entirely selflessly towards the goal of delivering one person to
>> the top podium spot in Paris was certainly an advantage few, if any other
>> riders, had. Was it enough to overcome systemic doping without engaging
>> in it themselves?

> Thanks for the laugh.


The question was whether the lack of success by French teams really has much
to do with doping.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
 
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Kyle Legate" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>
>>> What's frequently ignored about Postal/Discovery is that nobody else
>>> seemed to have the drive & dedication to a specific task (winning the
>>> TdF) that they had. Actually that's not true; many saw their
>>> single-minded pursuit of the TdF in a very negative way. But having a
>>> team act entirely selflessly towards the goal of delivering one person
>>> to the top podium spot in Paris was certainly an advantage few, if any
>>> other riders, had. Was it enough to overcome systemic doping without
>>> engaging in it themselves?

>> Thanks for the laugh.

>
> The question was whether the lack of success by French teams really has
> much to do with doping.


When I was there I asked that question of the couple of intelligent
Frenchmen I met and they said it was because France had turned its back on
cycling as a sport because other sports were so much easier.
 
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> "Kyle Legate" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>> What's frequently ignored about Postal/Discovery is that nobody else
>>> seemed to have the drive & dedication to a specific task (winning the
>>> TdF) that they had. Actually that's not true; many saw their
>>> single-minded pursuit of the TdF in a very negative way. But having a
>>> team act entirely selflessly towards the goal of delivering one person to
>>> the top podium spot in Paris was certainly an advantage few, if any other
>>> riders, had. Was it enough to overcome systemic doping without engaging
>>> in it themselves?

>> Thanks for the laugh.

>
> The question was whether the lack of success by French teams really has much
> to do with doping.
>

I know what the question was. And yes, the lack of success does have
much to do with doping.
 
Tom Kunich wrote:
> "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> "Kyle Legate" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's frequently ignored about Postal/Discovery is that nobody else
>>>> seemed to have the drive & dedication to a specific task (winning
>>>> the TdF) that they had. Actually that's not true; many saw their
>>>> single-minded pursuit of the TdF in a very negative way. But having
>>>> a team act entirely selflessly towards the goal of delivering one
>>>> person to the top podium spot in Paris was certainly an advantage
>>>> few, if any other riders, had. Was it enough to overcome systemic
>>>> doping without engaging in it themselves?
>>>
>>> Thanks for the laugh.

>>
>>
>> The question was whether the lack of success by French teams really
>> has much to do with doping.

>
>
> When I was there I asked that question of the couple of intelligent
> Frenchmen I met and they said it was because France had turned its back
> on cycling as a sport because other sports were so much easier.
>



I know whenever I want to find out why millions of people do or don't do
something, I ask one (1) person and then use that single person's answer
to arrive at a definitive conclusion for the other millions I didn't ask.

Thanks for the insight into your survey technique,

Magilla
 
MagillaGorilla wrote:

> Tom Kunich wrote:
>> "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> "Kyle Legate" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What's frequently ignored about Postal/Discovery is that nobody else
>>>>> seemed to have the drive & dedication to a specific task (winning
>>>>> the TdF) that they had. Actually that's not true; many saw their
>>>>> single-minded pursuit of the TdF in a very negative way. But having
>>>>> a team act entirely selflessly towards the goal of delivering one
>>>>> person to the top podium spot in Paris was certainly an advantage
>>>>> few, if any other riders, had. Was it enough to overcome systemic
>>>>> doping without engaging in it themselves?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the laugh.
>>>
>>>
>>> The question was whether the lack of success by French teams really
>>> has much to do with doping.

>>
>>
>> When I was there I asked that question of the couple of intelligent
>> Frenchmen I met and they said it was because France had turned its back
>> on cycling as a sport because other sports were so much easier.
>>

>
>
> I know whenever I want to find out why millions of people do or don't do
> something, I ask one (1) person and then use that single person's answer
> to arrive at a definitive conclusion for the other millions I didn't ask.
>
> Thanks for the insight into your survey technique,


But Tom used *intelligent* Frenchmen. Although that might seem oxymoronic
if you hate the French, ironic if you think Tom might have trouble telling
if the person he is talking to is intelligent, or retarded, the point is
that Tom didn't just talk to any old Frenchman. No, he was like Diogenes,
Oedipus, or one of the dwarves in The Lord of the Rings, searching for
*intelligent* Frenchmen, except he didn't have a lamp and didn't make
friends with any elves. That Tom used two intelligent Frenchmen, and not
just the first two, but a random sampling of two of *all* the intelligent
Frenchmen he met, shows that his statistical sense is as good as his sense
of everything else and I think you owe him an apology. Chung would back
me up on this if he ever bothered reading my most excellent posts.

Anyway, don't all Frenchmen look alike so what's the difference?

--
Bill Asher
 

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