Lance accused . . . again. . .

[jjjtttggg]

Sitting in an airport bar watching ESPN news, I see a French newspaper has just accused Lance of using EPO in his 1999 TdF. I know the "does Lance/doesn't he" thing has been posted and debated here before. My question is this: Supposing he does (ok, now it's "did"), could he have really hidden it with all the testing he's undergone???? I believe LA's been the real deal all along, and I'll be pretty bummed if it turns out otherwise. Would it even be possible for him to have hidden it? Do any of you know about how detectable EPO/Doping really is?

Maybe this is a little outside the Training Forum purview(sp), but I'm interested in your opinions.

J

 

[prostiak]

Sitting in an airport bar watching ESPN news, I see a French newspaper has just accused Lance of using EPO in his 1999 TdF. I know the "does Lance/doesn't he" thing has been posted and debated here before. My question is this: Supposing he does (ok, now it's "did"), could he have really hidden it with all the testing he's undergone???? I believe LA's been the real deal all along, and I'll be pretty bummed if it turns out otherwise. Would it even be possible for him to have hidden it? Do any of you know about how detectable EPO/Doping really is?

Maybe this is a little outside the Training Forum purview(sp), but I'm interested in your opinions.

J

I saw that today too on tv. Accusing eite athletes of steroid or banned substance use, whether warrented or not seems to be the "in thing" these days. Whether he did or not, any accusation looks bad on him unless it's quickly proven false, so I assume it'll all be figured out soon enough.

 

[AussieRob]

The EPO test relates to a urine sample kept since 1999. In those dark days the EPO urine test was not approved. The sample was tested recently using current testing methods and, alegedly, he tested positive.

What is the sanction? Ejection from the 1999 tour? a 2 (or is it 4) year ban? that still leaves him with between 5 and 3 tour wins. It doesn't really matter, he has made his pile and got a Discovery TV contract for god knows how much. The American public at large don't care about doping, just look at baseball. Don't get me started on BALCO.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Journalists have the luxury of throwing out allegations and quoting sources without the accusee being given the opportunity to cross-examine the statements or raise bona fide issues that might cast doubt on the acccuser's credibility. I attach very little weight to such allegations, whether it's about LA or Marion Jones or Barry Bonds. When a sport's official doping agency brings charges, the athlete has the option of appealing the charges and disputing the veracity of the evidence. I attach more weight to such charges, at least after the athlete has had the chance to appeal the charges. This has yet to occur with LA. We may have the opportunity in the near future to hear some of LA's accusers testify under oath in open court (with cross-examination by LA's attorneys) because LA has filed civil suit against several of his accusers. I will be very interested in that testimony. By my way of assessing the credibility of accusations, nothing yet about LA has risen above the level of journalism. And I rate journalists about 1 on a scale of 1 to 10 (1 being low) for credibility. You don't sell many papers with the headline, "Lance was clean!" Believe what you want, but I consider this stuff gossip at this point.

 

[Doctor Morbius]

Journalists have the luxury of throwing out allegations and quoting sources without the accusee being given the opportunity to cross-examine the statements or raise bona fide issues that might cast doubt on the acccuser's credibility. I attach very little weight to such allegations, whether it's about LA or Marion Jones or Barry Bonds. When a sport's official doping agency brings charges, the athlete has the option of appealing the charges and disputing the veracity of the evidence. I attach more weight to such charges, at least after the athlete has had the chance to appeal the charges. This has yet to occur with LA. We may have the opportunity in the near future to hear some of LA's accusers testify under oath in open court (with cross-examination by LA's attorneys) because LA has filed civil suit against several of his accusers. I will be very interested in that testimony. By my way of assessing the credibility of accusations, nothing yet about LA has risen above the level of journalism. And I rate journalists about 1 on a scale of 1 to 10 (1 being low) for credibility. You don't sell many papers with the headline, "Lance was clean!" Believe what you want, but I consider this stuff gossip at this point.

Agree 100%. Journalists are right up there with lawyers, politicians and advertisers ... pond scum! Pond scum that earn their living on lies and the hardships of others.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Agree 100%. Journalists are right up there with lawyers, politicians and advertisers ... pond scum! Pond scum that earn their living on lies and the hardships of others.

Pond scum, huh? Had to look that one up. I'd have probably used the cliche bottom feeder, but I'd say your term is not a cliche and fits just as well.

 

[frenchyge]

Pond scum, huh? Had to look that one up. I'd have probably used the cliche bottom feeder, but I'd say your term is not a cliche and fits just as well.

I guess there aren't any ponds in LV? I've read your posts about early morning rides down the strip, so I know you're familiar with various other types of scum. Think green slimy stuff on the bottom of a marble bird bath....

 

[frenchyge]

The EPO test relates to a urine sample kept since 1999. In those dark days the EPO urine test was not approved. The sample was tested recently using current testing methods and, alegedly, he tested positive.

If someone had a bottle of Lance's **** from 1999, wouldn't they conduct that test on national television where the whole world would immediately know the result?

Heck, that'd be worth huge ratings here in the US. They'd do a 2-hr special where they'd have experts testify to the calibration and validity of the test equipment, do a couple sample tests on some controls first, conduct some interviews with other doper cyclists, break the seal right on camera, etc. It'd be like the big TV special where they opened Al Capone's vault.

 

[RapDaddyo]

I guess there aren't any ponds in LV? I've read your posts about early morning rides down the strip, so I know you're familiar with various other types of scum. Think green slimy stuff on the bottom of a marble bird bath....

Well, there's Lake Mead, but I guess that doesn't qualify as a pond.

 

[Doctor Morbius]

I'm now thinking pond scum is too generous a term. Now thinking cesspool is apropos.

 

[RapDaddyo]

I'm now thinking pond scum is too generous a term. Now thinking cesspool is apropos.

I see I touched a nerve with the reference to "journalists."

 

[txags92]

Lets see...whats wrong with this picture...

You take an anonymous sample with only a number on it. You have a bunch of confidential paperwork with the number on it that somehow ends up in the newspaper's hands. You have a sample that has been sitting around in a lab for 6 years with what is probably fairly minimal security. And finally, you have a bunch of journalists and "investigators" that have a documented history of violating the laws by breaking into Lance's hotel rooms and team vehicles to go through his stuff and his trash looking for evidence of doping. Is there even the slightest chance that if they could get their hands on lab paperwork that shows his name next to his anonymous sample id number that at some point in a six year period they could also get access to his urine samples before they were tested? Don't forget, that for some, this is a matter of French National Honor (if such a thing exists) to disprove the notion that an American could come over there and win THEIR race repeatedly. If they woud break into his hotel room, what other illegal steps might they take if they knew the lab was planning to do these tests on the old samples?

I don't claim to know where the truth is in all this, and it does make me raise my eyebrows, but at the same time, this isn't at all the open and shut case that many seem to be making it out to be.

 

[Fixey]

Lets see...whats wrong with this picture...

You take an anonymous sample with only a number on it. You have a bunch of confidential paperwork with the number on it that somehow ends up in the newspaper's hands. You have a sample that has been sitting around in a lab for 6 years with what is probably fairly minimal security. And finally, you have a bunch of journalists and "investigators" that have a documented history of violating the laws by breaking into Lance's hotel rooms and team vehicles to go through his stuff and his trash looking for evidence of doping. Is there even the slightest chance that if they could get their hands on lab paperwork that shows his name next to his anonymous sample id number that at some point in a six year period they could also get access to his urine samples before they were tested? Don't forget, that for some, this is a matter of French National Honor (if such a thing exists) to disprove the notion that an American could come over there and win THEIR race repeatedly. If they woud break into his hotel room, what other illegal steps might they take if they knew the lab was planning to do these tests on the old samples?

I don't claim to know where the truth is in all this, and it does make me raise my eyebrows, but at the same time, this isn't at all the open and shut case that many seem to be making it out to be.

OMG this is funny... REALITY..prior to 2000 there was no accepted test for EPO, is it likly that Lance and 99% of the peleton used it? Of course they did.... Do you think that when a test was found to be effective all those riders said "well gee fella's, games up, lets give up this drug stuff" or do you think more likely they got LA's mate "the Doc" to move them on to the next undetectable concoction....... the VAST majority of top athletes use drugs, it is a total non-sense to single out LA, but i guess his "Butter wouldnt melt in my mouth" attitude probably sets a few people against him.

 

[txags92]

So if 99% of the peleton was using it in 1999, how is it that only 12 out of the 70 samples came up with EPO in them and that 6 of those 12 just happened to be all 6 of LA's? If he is such a master at avoiding getting caught, how come every single sample he supplied in 1999 came up positive and only 6 of the remaining 64 came up positive when 99% of them should have been originally positive according to your claim? That and the canadian lab manager's comments about rapid epo breakdown in urine even when frozen just make me think it is all that much more likely that the samples were spiked.

 

[gawnfishin]

Maybe we should drug test media journalist. We should start with performance de-hancing substances.

 

[ron19]

We're talking about 1999 here if I'm not mistaken. What happened in 2000-2005 ? Any more "evidence"?. In my view LA is THE supreme athlete & master tactician.

 

[wineandkeyz]

In my view LA is THE supreme athlete & master tactician.

You live in France? Be careful making such statements, or you could get deported!

There are so many questions about how this testing was conducted, why it was conducted, how the "anonymous" test results just "happened" to end up in the hands of a newspaper that's been after LA forever... Not to mention the fact that the head of Canada's anti-doping test lab has stated that EPO breaks down in urine, even when frozen...

So who would have the most to gain by trying to smear LA? How about the insurance company that owes him money? Since someone brought up "pond scum"...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/more/09/23/bc.armstrong.bonusdisput.ap/

 

[RickF]

We're talking about 1999 here if I'm not mistaken. What happened in 2000-2005 ? Any more "evidence"?. In my view LA is THE supreme athlete & master tactician.

According to the prescribing informatin for the product:

Erythropoietin is a glycoprotein which stimulates red blood cell production. It is produced in the kidney and stimulates the division and differentiation of committed erythroid progenitors in the bone marrow. EPOGEN® (Epoetin alfa), a 165 amino acid glycoprotein manufactured by recombinant DNA technology, has the same biological effects as endogenous erythropoietin. It has a molecular weight of 30,400 daltons and is produced by mammalian cells into which the human erythropoietin gene has been introduced. The product contains the identical amino acid sequence of isolated natural erythropoietin.

I added the bold print so that no one misses the fact that erythropoietin is naturally produced by the body, and the substance that LA was supposed to have used is identical to the natural product. Erythropoietin is produced by the kidney in response to low oxygen saturation in the blood. Erythropoietin stimulates the production of red blood cells. If one has healthy kidneys, which I would assume most of the top riders do, anything that decreases the amount of oxygen reaching the kidney will cause the kidney to produce more erythropoietin.

I would think that exercising hard, which causes the muscles to remove oxygen from the red blood cells, would result in less oxygen reaching the kidney. I also would think that exercising at high altitudes (Alps? Pyrenees?) would further reduce the amount of oxygen that reaches the kidney. The bottom line is that all riders should have higher levels of erythropoietin than normal. Riders whose muscles are more efficient at removing oxygen from the blood will have even higher levels of erythropoietin than other riders.

Erythropoietin is a protein - a very large molecule. Molecules this large are too large to be filtered through the glomerulus, and therefore, are not normally excreted in the urine.

All of this raises three questions in my mind:

1. How does one set limits for a naturally occurring substance in athletes, who by the nature of their activity, are expected to have higher than normal levels of this substance in their blood?

2. Why would one look for a 165 amino acid glycoprotein in the urine, when it is not normally excreted in the urine?

3. How does a glycoprotein get into the urine of a patient who has normal kidneys, when normal kidneys would not filter out a molecule this large?

 

[RapDaddyo]

The bottom line is that all riders should have higher levels of erythropoietin than normal. Riders whose muscles are more efficient at removing oxygen from the blood will have even higher levels of erythropoietin than other riders.

So, how do they (the anti-doping agency) test for EPO? Have they set an arbitrary limit and assume that if the athlete's level is in excess of the limit then they must have taken EPO?

 

[ives]

........... but i guess his "Butter wouldnt melt in my mouth" attitude probably sets a few people against him.

That's the point, I think.