Lance and the cross

[Kurgan Gringion]

"Dashi Toshii" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Curtis L. Russell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > The vast majority of Christians, Jews and Muslims are not Deists by
any
> > > modern use of the term, but Theist. Deists by the modern use, believe
in
> > > God, but don't in general believe in religious revealed truths or that
a
> > God
> > > upsets natural law to inflict punishment on one group or devine grace
on
> > > another. Atheism, theism and deism are clearly belief systems.
Agnostism
> > as
> > > it originally was developed was a belief system, but its belief system
> did
> > > not accept that the ultimate reality of God or ultimate truths could
be
> > > determined. It is fairly recent that Agnostism has been used as an
easy
> > > phrase/catch-all for those that simply do not believe one way or the
> > other.
> >
> >
> >
> > I stand corrected on deism/theism.
> >
> > Agree with the rest of yoru post.
>
>
> If you want to go further on the subject, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine
and
> other founding fathers were not Christians but Deists.
>
> No supernatural deity for them.

Actually, yes, the did believe in the supernatural deity (that's what deism
is), but did not subscribe the theism that organized religion adds.

 

[Salmoneous]

Just to hijack the thread for a second with a really dumb question. As a casual fan, these chains
have been bugging me. There's Lance and his cross, and that rope Vinokourov wears. We hear of all
the extreme steps the riders go through to get weight off the bikes. Is the weight of the chains
insignificant?

 

[Bob M]

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 20:13:45 GMT, Kurgan Gringioni
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
> "Dashi Toshii" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news[email protected]...
>> >
>> > "Tim McTeague" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > news:[email protected]...
>> > >
>> > > "Ed-D" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:bWGTa.12012
>> > > >
>> > > doesn't an atheist claim to prove the
>> > > > inexistence of God?
>> > >
>> > > You could not be more wrong. Atheists NEVER claim they can prove
>> > something
>> > > does not exist, as you cannot prove a negative.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Atheism is a belief system in that it believes God does not exist.
>>
>> And what do you call a non-belief in Santa Claus?
>>
>> Atheism just means non-theism, or what it means to me is a person willing
> to
>> reason and not accept ******** as fact.
>
>
> That may be literally what it means in the dictionary, but culturally, atheists believe in absence
> of god (which is a belief system). Non-belief is agnosticism.
>
>
>

I thought agnosticism meant that you didn't know -- God could be there or not. BTW, what's this have
to do with racing?

--
Bob M in CT Remove 'x.' to reply

 

[Kurgan Gringion]

"h squared" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> no one gets my jokes...(yeah, cause they're lame, i know.)

You made a joke?

> but your reply was interesting, so i'm less bored now, thanks! i had spent the last half hour
> wondering if i should try drinking my own pee at least once before i die, so it was getting pretty
> desperate.

I would have figured you've tried that by now.

 

[Kurgan Gringion]

"Bob M" <[email protected]> wrote in message news[email protected]...
> >> > >
> >> > > You could not be more wrong. Atheists NEVER claim they can prove
> >> > something
> >> > > does not exist, as you cannot prove a negative.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Atheism is a belief system in that it believes God does not exist.
> >>
> >> And what do you call a non-belief in Santa Claus?
> >>
> >> Atheism just means non-theism, or what it means to me is a person willing
> > to
> >> reason and not accept ******** as fact.
> >
> >
> > That may be literally what it means in the dictionary, but culturally, atheists believe in
> > absence of god (which is a belief system).
Non-belief
> > is agnosticism.
> >
> >
> >
>
> I thought agnosticism meant that you didn't know -- God could be there or not.

that is correct.

sounds like a non-belief to me.

>BTW, what's this have to do with racing?

not much.

 

[H Squared]

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
>
> "h squared" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > no one gets my jokes...(yeah, cause they're lame, i know.)
>
> You made a joke?

apparently not.

> > i had spent the last half hour wondering if i should try drinking my own pee at least once
> > before i die, so it was getting pretty desperate.
>
> I would have figured you've tried that by now.

nope, i'm a sweet innocent flower.

h

 

[Son_of_kurgan]

"Andrew Short" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<yvHTa.131717$Ph3.16964@sccrnsc04>...
> In his book on pp. 163f, he writes of a friend named Stacy Pounds who was diagnosed with incurable
> lung cancer after his own recovery. In an effort to make her feel better, he gave her one of two
> silver chained crucifixes that his mother had bought.

I'll bet it really ****** off his mother, who probably expected him to share them with her.
Especially given their relationship.

 

[Ed-D]

"Dashi Toshii" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news[email protected]...
> >
> > "Tim McTeague" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > "Ed-D" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:bWGTa.12012
> > > >
> > > doesn't an atheist claim to prove the
> > > > inexistence of God?
> > >
> > > You could not be more wrong. Atheists NEVER claim they can prove
> > something
> > > does not exist, as you cannot prove a negative.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Atheism is a belief system in that it believes God does not exist.
>
> And what do you call a non-belief in Santa Claus?
>

totally different concept, for many reasons.

> Atheism just means non-theism, or what it means to me is a person willing to reason and not accept
> ******** as fact.
>

that is most definitely the wrong definition of atheism. You can be a card carrying [fill in the
blanks with major religion of your choice] and still be willing to reason and not accept
******** as fact.

> > Deism (Christians, Muslims) is a belief system in that it believes God
> does
> > exist.
>
> > It is Agnosticism believes nothing.
>
> Dashii

 

[Ed-D]

"Tim McTeague" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Ugh, bored indeed. If one had to "prove" everything that one did "not" believe in there would be
> no time for anything else.

Unless one's "non" belief was in itself a form of faith...which atheism is.

> The only logical way to proceed is to require proof for things claimed to exist.

Spirituality can be very subjective. For certain people the existence of God is fact, proven for
example through events in their lives. While some of these individuals may be delusional,
self-centered, or paranoid, there are countless others who are perfectly rational in every way. Then
there are others, such as myself (and Pascal, the French philosopher) who claim that it is far
easier (and more rational) to chalk up all the various phenomena of life to a Deity, than it would
be to find "scientific" causes for them all.

Then there are all kinds of other intangibles: progress, for example. Do you believe in progress?
If so, can you still be an atheist? If not, how do you explain progress in purely scientific
terms? Hmmm....

> Or, a reasonable and testable explanation for an observed phenomenon, such as gravity. Even if the
> current theory is replaced is does not mean that gravity did not exist but merely that our
> knowledge of the explanation has changed.

Right but where does gravity, and other laws of nature originate? Why do they exist?

> As far as the real meaning of atheist VS agnostic, well, words take on new meanings over time. It
> seems "truth" now is the word for something one believes with all their heart, thus the insipid
> expression "my truth". For now, I stick with the word fact.

Your fact is another man's faith. And vice versa.

> I take "atheist" at it's original meaning, no theism. When I had strong doubts about religion I
> called my an "agnostic" but mostly to keep from pissing people off. As long as you were not sure
> the threat was reduced. Over time I concluded that religion was all wishful thinking and called a
> atheist an atheist.

Don't let organized religion, with all its flaws (of which there are many) cause you to reject all
forms of spiritual phenomena.

> I'm still open minded,

Could have fooled me.

> just not so open that my brain falls out. Prove that your deity of choice exists, and there are so
> many, have it stand up to testing, and I will have to go along. I have changed previous strongly
> held opinions that way. Sorry to all for letting this thread stray so far afield. TYLER ROCKS!
>
> Tim McTeague
>
> "h squared" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> >
> > Tim McTeague wrote:
> > >
> > > as you cannot prove a negative.
> >
> > can you prove that? and if not, how do you know it's true?
> >
> > (sorry for my dumb reply, blame it on boredom) heather

 

[Dashi Toshii]

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Dashi Toshii" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > "Curtis L. Russell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > The vast majority of Christians, Jews and Muslims are not Deists by
> any
> > > > modern use of the term, but Theist. Deists by the modern use,
believe
> in
> > > > God, but don't in general believe in religious revealed truths or
that
> a
> > > God
> > > > upsets natural law to inflict punishment on one group or devine
grace
> on
> > > > another. Atheism, theism and deism are clearly belief systems.
> Agnostism
> > > as
> > > > it originally was developed was a belief system, but its belief
system
> > did
> > > > not accept that the ultimate reality of God or ultimate truths could
> be
> > > > determined. It is fairly recent that Agnostism has been used as an
> easy
> > > > phrase/catch-all for those that simply do not believe one way or the
> > > other.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I stand corrected on deism/theism.
> > >
> > > Agree with the rest of yoru post.
> >
> >
> > If you want to go further on the subject, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine
> and
> > other founding fathers were not Christians but Deists.
> >
> > No supernatural deity for them.
>
>
> Actually, yes, the did believe in the supernatural deity (that's what
deism
> is), but did not subscribe the theism that organized religion adds.

Ok you are correct but not all Deists belive in a supernatural deity, some believe that God is a
part of nature.

I can't provide any evidence for that other than to tell you that is what I got from a Deist during
a conversation on a newsgroup.

Dashii

 

[Dashi Toshii]

"Ed-D" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:jW%[email protected]...
> "Dashi Toshii" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news[email protected]...
> > >
> > > "Tim McTeague" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > >
> > > > "Ed-D" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:bWGTa.12012
> > > > >
> that is most definitely the wrong definition of atheism. You can be a card carrying [fill in the
> blanks with major religion of your choice] and still
be
> willing to reason and not accept ******** as fact.

No way!

Deut. 25:11 tells us that a wife who grabs her husband's attacker by his private parts must have her
hand cut off and is to be shown no pity.

Is this not ********?

Is this not the inerrant word of God?

Only an unreasonable person would accept this as fact, no?

Dashii

 

[Kurgan Gringion]

"Dashi Toshii" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Actually, yes, the did believe in the supernatural deity (that's what
> deism
> > is), but did not subscribe the theism that organized religion adds.
>
> Ok you are correct but not all Deists belive in a supernatural deity, some believe that God is a
> part of nature.

OK, but wouldn't that be supernatural?

Picky, my apologies.

 

[Dashi Toshii]

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Dashi Toshii" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > Actually, yes, the did believe in the supernatural deity (that's what
> > deism
> > > is), but did not subscribe the theism that organized religion adds.
> >
> > Ok you are correct but not all Deists belive in a supernatural deity,
some
> > believe that God is a part of nature.
>
>
> OK, but wouldn't that be supernatural?
>
> Picky, my apologies.

No problem, but a stone or tree has ki you know?

Or is it ki has a tree or stone?

Or is it ri...

Dashii

 

[Tim McTeague]

"Ed-D" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> Unless one's "non" belief was in itself a form of faith...which atheism
is.

Circular logic adding nothing to the discussion.

> Spirituality can be very subjective. For certain people the existence of
God
> is fact, proven for example through events in their lives.

Semantics turned on it's head. Anecdotal evidence in itself does not rise to the level of fact.

> Then there are all kinds of other intangibles: progress, for example. Do
you
> believe in progress? If so, can you still be an atheist? If not, how do
you
> explain progress in purely scientific terms? Hmmm....

You act as if you just scored some point here, what exactly is it? As for progress, lets see...many
diseases limited or eradicated, more and safer food, and so forth. Has this been achieved through
prayer or the scientific process of testing, trial and error. etc.?

> Right but where does gravity, and other laws of nature originate? Why do
they
> exist?

Are you saying God created gravity? Then where did God come from? You just added an unnecessary and
unexplained link to the chain.

> Your fact is another man's faith. And vice versa.

More nonsense. You clearly have no understanding of the words. For rational dialoge to continue we
have to accept that some words actually have an agreed upon meaning and you cannot just alter said
meaning to suit your arguement.

> > I'm still open minded,
>
> Could have fooled me.

I laid out what was needed for me to change my mind. How about you? What would it take for you to
accept that there are no Gods? If you cannot provide anything then that, by definition, is what
closed mined is all about.

Again, sorry to many that this has gone so far field. I won't respond to this any longer. Perhaps we
should move it to alt.atheism.moderated.

Tim McTeague

 

[Dashi Toshii]

"Tim McTeague" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> "Ed-D" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> >
> > Unless one's "non" belief was in itself a form of faith...which atheism
> is.
>
> Circular logic adding nothing to the discussion.
>
>
> > Spirituality can be very subjective. For certain people the existence of
> God
> > is fact, proven for example through events in their lives.
>
> Semantics turned on it's head. Anecdotal evidence in itself does not rise to the level of fact.
>
>
> > Then there are all kinds of other intangibles: progress, for example. Do
> you
> > believe in progress? If so, can you still be an atheist? If not, how
do
> you
> > explain progress in purely scientific terms? Hmmm....
>
> You act as if you just scored some point here, what exactly is it? As for progress, lets
> see...many diseases limited or eradicated, more and safer food, and so forth. Has this been
> achieved through prayer or the
scientific
> process of testing, trial and error. etc.?
>
> > Right but where does gravity, and other laws of nature originate? Why do
> they
> > exist?
>
> Are you saying God created gravity? Then where did God come from? You
just
> added an unnecessary and unexplained link to the chain.
>
>
>
> > Your fact is another man's faith. And vice versa.
>
> More nonsense. You clearly have no understanding of the words. For rational dialoge to continue we
> have to accept that some words actually
have
> an agreed upon meaning and you cannot just alter said meaning to suit your arguement.
>
>
>
> > > I'm still open minded,
> >
> > Could have fooled me.
>
>
> I laid out what was needed for me to change my mind. How about you? What would it take for you to
> accept that there are no Gods? If you cannot provide anything then that, by definition, is what
> closed mined is all about.
>
> Again, sorry to many that this has gone so far field. I won't respond to this any longer. Perhaps
> we should move it to alt.atheism.moderated.
>
> Tim McTeague

Ah Jeez Tim and I was really enjoying your responses.

Dashii

 

[Kurgan Gringion]

"h squared" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> > > i had spent the last half hour wondering if i should try drinking my own
pee
> > > at least once before i die, so it was getting pretty desperate.
> >
> > I would have figured you've tried that by now.
>
> nope, i'm a sweet innocent flower.

Yes, and I am polite, to a fault.

 

[Precious Pup]

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> Dashi Toshii wrote:
>> Atheism just means non-theism, or what it means to me is a person willing to reason and not
>> accept ******** as fact.
>
> That may be literally what it means in the dictionary, but culturally, atheists believe in absence
> of god (which is a belief system).

I don't buy that. I've closely listened to the language used. Some people simply are not convinced
that any of the phenomena they experience is due to the supernatural. Without witness, testability,
or certain manifestation of the supernatural, they conclude such a source power is highly improbable
and live accordingly. It is a much stronger statement than the agnostic's "I don't know," it is "I
see repeatedly no evidence anywhere of such a supernatural force, therefore 'it' would seem to be
highly improbable, but apparently unprovable."

"No compelling evidence - therefore highly improbable, so I won't live my life that way" is not an
absolute statement (which *would* likely make it a belief), but rather having given the matter more
thought than the simple fence sitting "I don't know." Some folks don't like the statistical view of
life, particularly when it does not favor their pet ideas.

 

[Kurgan Gringion]

"Precious Pup" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> > Dashi Toshii wrote:
> >> Atheism just means non-theism, or what it means to me is a person
willing
> >> to reason and not accept ******** as fact.
> >
> > That may be literally what it means in the dictionary, but culturally, atheists believe in
> > absence of god (which is a belief system).
>
> I don't buy that. I've closely listened to the language used. Some
people simply are not convinced that any
> of the phenomena they experience is due to the supernatural. Without
witness, testability, or certain
> manifestation of the supernatural, they conclude such a source power is
highly improbable and live
> accordingly. It is a much stronger statement than the agnostic's "I don't
know," it is "I see repeatedly no
> evidence anywhere of such a supernatural force, therefore 'it' would seem
to be highly improbable, but
> apparently unprovable."
>
> "No compelling evidence - therefore highly improbable, so I won't live my
life that way" is not an absolute
> statement (which *would* likely make it a belief), but rather having given
the matter more thought than the
> simple fence sitting "I don't know." Some folks don't like the
statistical view of life, particularly when it
> does not favor their pet ideas.

Atheism includes believing that there was no divine intelligence behind The Creation of the Universe
or The Big Bang or whatever you want to call it.

Agnostics claim not to know.

Deists claim there is such a divine intelligence.

Theists claim there is a divine intelligence and it has something to do with our everyday lives.

 

[Precious Pup]

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
>
> Atheism includes believing that there was no divine intelligence behind The Creation of the
> Universe or The Big Bang or whatever you want to call it.
>
> Agnostics claim not to know.
>
> Deists claim there is such a divine intelligence.
>
> Theists claim there is a divine intelligence and it has something to do with our everyday lives.

How many reindeer do you push off the roof before you can say with reasonable certainty that
"reindeer can't fly?"

When someone says "if I put my hand in the fire, I 'believe' it will be burned," compare and
contrast that "belief" with that of the theist's "belief" in a loving divinity?

When someone says "I 'believe' the sun will rise tommorrow," compare and contrast that "belief" with
that of the theist's "belief" in a loving divinity?

I suppose it is all the same. That is, any old belief is as good as another; if you what to believe
in Santa Claus, well whatever dude, whatever makes you happy. And here I thought that falling down
at 30 mph really hurt. It was all simply my belief system, not true pain.