Lance Armstrong Won't Fight Usada Charges



jpwkeeper said:
This might be the most rational idea I've heard on the topic.  I think the idea of doping control has been shown to be an unmitigated failure.  I don't think the future lies in doping controls, I think it lies in a different direction.  I mean, seriously, who has it caught?  Floyd, who left the patch on too long cause he was having a beer with the boss?  Tyler, who grabbed the wrong bag one day?  I actually read large chunks of the report last night.  What was really fascinating to me wasn't the doping part, but the details in what life as a pro cyclist with a team doctor was like, how Ferarri constantly monitored every minutia of their bodies and could perscribe not just dope and transfusions, but exactly what they should do training wise and when they should do it to be their absolute best, down to changing seat position by 2mm.  The E-Mail traffic between young and old Ferrari was particularly fascinating.  I thought the team doctor was mainly there to keep the riders healthy and to juice them up, but this paints a picture of a very busy person in that position juggling a lot of data for many riders at once and making a lot of detailed decisions based on that. It also raises another disturbing question.  Is it any better now?  How would we know?
There are cheats in every sport and in pretty much every area of life, but legitimizing the cheats serves no purpose at all. As in cycling, there are many cheats at college and in graduate schools. Do we want to say, "Cheating in school is okay since we'll never be rid of it and can't catch them all"? Moreover, just because it's difficult to do something--catching riders who dope and the people who support and provide the means for doping--is no reason to not do that something. The sport is much better off without rampant doping, IMHO. It will of course take time to minimize doping in cycling, but it will happen as new racers enter the sport that has a different attitude toward cycling and as the cycling public has cycling under closer scrutiny.
 
jpwkeeper said:
My favorite parts are when they quote from books written by Lance and Johan as if they were incriminating testimony, and when detailing practices that are totally legal like having Ferrari take Lactate levels after hill repeats.  The could have boiled the whole thing down into around 30 pages or so. No doubt it wouldn't hold up in court, but then again it doesn't have to (which explains why the Justice Dept. dropped its case).  I think in the court of public opinion, though, George's testimony is the most damning.  My prediction is that the UCI will uphold the decision while denying reports that they covered up positive tests. 
Note that what you read was just a summary. Just as an abstract doesn't contain much of the detail of a research paper, a summary doesn't include all the detail of the USADA investigation. Given the difference in number of pages (1000ish vs 200), the summary likely contains no more than 1/5 of the details. With that said, the USADA's report does contain testimony from 26 witnesses. I'm not a lawyer, but I suspect someone who is a lawyer, like JHuskey, can confirm that there have been conspiracy convictions based largely on a great number of witnesses and their testimony. It's also difficult to ignore the opinions of someone like CJ Christopher and Ashendon who've had at least three peer-reviewed publications:
  1. "A novel method utilising markers of altered erythropoiesis for the detection of recombinant human erythropoietin abuse in athletes"
  2. "Detection of recombinant human erythropoietin abuse in athletes utilizing markers of altered erythropoiesis"
  3. "Second-generation blood tests to detect erythropoietin abuse by athletes"
If you want to challenge them, you first need to credibly challenge their science.
 
limerickman said:
McQuaid is part of the problem. He and the existing UCI regime cannot be part of any sustainable solution. Like FIFA, the people who run the UCI are appointed without any real accountability or transparency. I've argued for years that self regulation of the sport needs to be addressed urgently. Cycling is fit for a schism much like what happened in Cricket in the late 1970's. 
This is from VeloNews:
At a press conference during last month’s road world championships, McQuaid said the UCI expected to impose the lifetime ban. “The UCI is ready to takes it responsibility unless the USADA decision gives us some serious reason not to do so,” McQuaid said. “There is no intention to go to (the Court of Arbitration for Sport) or to not recognize the decision.”​
With that, McQuaid made it pretty much impossible to not sanction Armstrong, and as already mentioned by others, McQuaid will have either admit or deny any UCI complicity. Given the report and the just quoted bit from McQuaid, denial is going to be a nearly impossible thing to pull-off. I imagine that is what is going on with McQuaid, Verbruggen, and their advisors are discussing. I do not believe that the UCI doesn't have a lot of good people and that the UCI can't still be relevant. I just think that the UCI won't be able to reform itself under McQuaid's and Verbruggen's influence.
 
One thing that could provide a stinging outcome for Armstrong will be the possibility of either riders suing or event promotors suing Armstrong for fraud and the like once the UCI sanctions him. Even more interesting is how long will Nike stand with Armstrong? If Nike decided to go after Armstrong for fraud, that would put Armstrong in a very uncomfortable position. It's difficult to see Nike standing by Armstrong for much longer.
 
The failure in doping controls has not been in catching them it's the deterrence factor. Hundreds have been caught and seldom ever return as successful as they were before if they return at all. Still others try.
 
Originally Posted by alienator .

One thing that could provide a stinging outcome for Armstrong will be the possibility of either riders suing or event promotors suing Armstrong for fraud and the like once the UCI sanctions him. Even more interesting is how long will Nike stand with Armstrong? If Nike decided to go after Armstrong for fraud, that would put Armstrong in a very uncomfortable position. It's difficult to see Nike standing by Armstrong for much longer.
Walsh alluded to something similar.

It would appear that the DoJ are still examining the issue of statements signed by the USPS cycling team.
The statements signed by the team undertook that no doping would be countenanced under the sponsorship agreement signed between the team and sponsor.
Walsh quoted a figure $30 million having been spent by USPS on it's cycling team.

It will be interesting to see if USPS decides that the fraud committed by the team it's sponsored is actionable.
 
Originally Posted by alienator .


This is from VeloNews: At a press conference during last month’s road world championships, McQuaid said the UCI expected to impose the lifetime ban.
“The UCI is ready to takes it responsibility unless the USADA decision gives us some serious reason not to do so,” McQuaid said. “There is no intention to go to (the Court of Arbitration for Sport) or to not recognize the decision.”
With that, McQuaid made it pretty much impossible to not sanction Armstrong, and as already mentioned by others, McQuaid will have either admit or deny any UCI complicity. Given the report and the just quoted bit from McQuaid, denial is going to be a nearly impossible thing to pull-off. I imagine that is what is going on with McQuaid, Verbruggen, and their advisors are discussing. I do not believe that the UCI doesn't have a lot of good people and that the UCI can't still be relevant. I just think that the UCI won't be able to reform itself under McQuaid's and Verbruggen's influence.
This is my 15,000 post /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif /img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif

McQuaid would try to tell you it's raining while pissing on you.
The man is a clown who will do or say whatever is expedient at time without considering the long term consequences.

His attitude is "it'll be alright on the night" ....."ah, shure what's a bit of cheating, shure isn't everyone doing it".
In short he's a gobshite.
I was at a federation meeting a few years ago and Pat was told in no uncertain what the membership thought of him.

I can guarantee that if McQuaid tries to manage this affair that it will end up in more and more recriminations and ridicule for the sport.
 
Originally Posted by limerickman .


This is my 15,000 post /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif /img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif
Congratulations! Your posts have always been intelligent and well worth the read.

Keep 'em coming.
 
Anyone need a good training plan? www.53x12.com Just ask for Schumi. The USPS just defaulted on $5.6 BILLION (that's billion...with a 'B') to the U.S. Treasury on its quarterly bill for bennies owed to retirees. Next month they get a bill for $1.5 more billion for workers comp they will default on. This defaulting has been going on some time now. Losses have added up to 15-20 BILLION per year now, for several years. I'm sure the defunct cycling squad is right at the top of their agenda. How can anyone that read that 4th grade level 'reasoned decision' not understand why the DOJ pulled the plug? Who knows? Maybe they can go after The Rocket for a third time?
 
Originally Posted by alienator .


There are cheats in every sport and in pretty much every area of life, but legitimizing the cheats serves no purpose at all. As in cycling, there are many cheats at college and in graduate schools. Do we want to say, "Cheating in school is okay since we'll never be rid of it and can't catch them all"? Moreover, just because it's difficult to do something--catching riders who dope and the people who support and provide the means for doping--is no reason to not do that something. The sport is much better off without rampant doping, IMHO. It will of course take time to minimize doping in cycling, but it will happen as new racers enter the sport that has a different attitude toward cycling and as the cycling public has cycling under closer scrutiny.
I don't think it should be legitimized, I just think it's going to require fresh thinking. The Bio Passport is an example of a fresh way to look at the problem, but it needs to go further.

Some of that would be re-definition of cheating, but only some. As a parallel, Calculators used to be considered cheating, now they're finding out that kids who use calculators are actually better at mental arithmetic than people who rely on pencil and paper in those early years.

Extrapolating that to cycling. Let's say someone has naturally low Testosterone levels. Would taking synthetic Testosterone be acceptable if you only used it to get to normal levels? Right now I don't think it is (could be wrong on that one, but you get the idea).

Another example in this way of thinking is Hemocrit. It's capped at 50%. What if they said, who cares how you get to 50%, but at 50.1% you're banned. Now perhaps legitimate doctors work out in the open in sterile conditions rather than in hotel rooms.

Hemocrit obviously is a straw man that can easily be torn down, but I'm trying more to illustrate the type of thinking, not actual examples, so bear that in mind. I just think "test to see if you took X" isn't workable because someone will just invent Y and/or find a way to fool the test for X. It's an arms race that's almost certain to be lost since the testers don't even know what's coming till it's practically disco.

What happens when someone invents a PED that does not cause adverse health issues? Now what is the moral argument against it? It's been a while, but last I heard the jury is still out in finding any long lasting adverse effects of synthetic HGH if it's not abused (of course Ibuprophen is bad if abused, so that by itself isn't enough of an argument).

I guess in summary I think cycling needs a mixture of re-thinking a few things, and those things that aren't re-thought they need to work smarter instead of harder. And I'd also argue it's more important now than it was in Lance's day because more teams seem to be running clean, so the dopers actually have a bigger advantage since there are fewer of them.
 
Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB .

Anyone need a good training plan? www.53x12.com Just ask for Schumi. The USPS just defaulted on $5.6 BILLION (that's billion...with a 'B') to the U.S. Treasury on its quarterly bill for bennies owed to retirees. Next month they get a bill for $1.5 more billion for workers comp they will default on. This defaulting has been going on some time now. Losses have added up to 15-20 BILLION per year now, for several years. I'm sure the defunct cycling squad is right at the top of their agenda. How can anyone that read that 4th grade level 'reasoned decision' not understand why the DOJ pulled the plug? Who knows? Maybe they can go after The Rocket for a third time?
It's over Bob. Your man's been busted.
Be my guest if you wish to keep filibustering : this game is over.

The case moves on. The UCI is now the target.
 
  • Like
Reactions: qdc15
jpwkeeper said:
I don't think it should be legitimized, I just think it's going to require fresh thinking.  The Bio Passport is an example of a fresh way to look at the problem, but it needs to go further. Some of that would be re-definition of cheating, but only some.  As a parallel, Calculators used to be considered cheating, now they're finding out that kids who use calculators are actually better at mental arithmetic than people who rely on pencil and paper in those early years. Extrapolating that to cycling.  Let's say someone has naturally low Testosterone levels.  Would taking synthetic Testosterone be acceptable if you only used it to get to normal levels?  Right now I don't think it is (could be wrong on that one, but you get the idea). Another example in this way of thinking is Hemocrit.  It's capped at 50%.  What if they said, who cares how you get to 50%, but at 50.1% you're banned.  Now perhaps legitimate doctors work out in the open in sterile conditions rather than in hotel rooms. Hemocrit obviously is a straw man that can easily be torn down, but I'm trying more to illustrate the type of thinking, not actual examples, so bear that in mind.  I just think "test to see if you took X" isn't workable because someone will just invent Y and/or find a way to fool the test for X.  It's an arms race that's almost certain to be lost since the testers don't even know what's coming till it's practically disco. What happens when someone invents a PED that does not cause adverse health issues?  Now what is the moral argument against it?  It's been a while, but last I heard the jury is still out in finding any long lasting adverse effects of synthetic HGH if it's not abused (of course Ibuprophen is bad if abused, so that by itself isn't enough of an argument). I guess in summary I think cycling needs a mixture of re-thinking a few things, and those things that aren't re-thought they need to work smarter instead of harder.  And I'd also argue it's more important now than it was in Lance's day because more teams seem to be running clean, so the dopers actually have a bigger advantage since there are fewer of them.
I can't see that happening and I don't think it would be a good idea. It's certainly not in the spirit of cycling. The racing should be about winning based on your effort and your exertion and not about what chemical you used to raise your hematocrit, to speed your recovery, or any such thing. The calculator is not a good analogy IMHO, because many problems can't be done in the time a test takes without using a calculator. You don't use calculators on a test to find a solution for a technique you learned by employing that same technique on a calculator. Moreover, cycling shouldn't be about who has the funds to buy the best doping. Regarding people with naturally low hematocrit or similar issues, I think that governing bodies should have a list of approved doctors from which to choose that a rider can see to be examined in order to get a TUE for medication. At the same time, there are some illnesses/diseases for which riding within the rules might not be possible. FWIW, I'd be surprised if there were many pro cyclists with low hematocrit. That would tend to be a barrier to achieving success in cycling.
 
offered for those still in denial that this could happen to the most tested athlete ever--round about the eighteen minute mark. this is not a case assembled without crossing t's and dotting i's, which is to say, sworn testimony, affidavits, financial records and test samples. in particular, her statement, "anyone who doesn't accept that lance armstrong crossed the line is someone that doesn't want to know. [bobbo]" and, oh my, a bit of gravy about mr. armstrong and witness tampering.

(my eternal thanks to some wonderful folks at my lbs of choice for providing the link.)

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=8487101
 
It's over Bob. Your man's been busted.
Be my guest if you wish to keep filibustering : this game is over.

The case moves on. The UCI is now the target.


I figure Paddy will give him a 6 months ban...back-dated, of course.

Far be it from me to say you are wrong, but...there are those that disagree with you.

[SIZE= 20px]Lance Armstrong's legacy may withstand accusations[/SIZE]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/11/us/armstrong-doping-legacy/index.html

Still, the flood of less-than-flattering details doesn't seem to be shaking the resolve of fans accustomed to accusations that have swirled for more than a decade, accusations the seven-time winner of cycling's most prestigious event -- the Tour de France -- has resolutely denied.

Armstrong's fans took to Facebook and other social media venues to stand by the man many see less as an athletic titan and more as an inspirational cancer survivor who has raised millions for cancer research and assistance.
"Whether you did, or you didn't, you still won 7 tour titles, you never failed a test and what you have done to increase the awareness of cancer, is enormous," one fan wrote on his Facebook fan page.
"Believe me, no one can tarnish the good you have done," wrote another.

Bruce Deming, a former federal prosecutor and avid amateur cyclist himself, said he doubted the criminal case would be reopened.
"The feds knew what USADA knew. USADA knew what the feds knew. So this is not new information to the prosecutors, I don't think," he said.
In fact, he said, he suspects the information revealed Wednesday is largely similar to what federal prosecutors unveiled.

[SIZE= 20px][COLOR= rgb(255, 0, 0)]"This investigation against Lance, which you know involved multiple federal agencies and a very large, well-organized federal investigation and what has to be millions of dollars spent, came up with apparently not enough hard evidence to charge Lance Armstrong with a parking ticket," Deming said.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[SIZE= 14px]Damn! That Deming cat must be one o' them thar filibusterers![/SIZE]

[SIZE= 14px]Y'all hate away. Ima just going to keep laughing at the whole spectacle.[/SIZE]

[SIZE= 14px]Yay sport![/SIZE]



 
is that bruce deming, former federal prosecutor and currently an ambulance chaser? that bruce deming? not enough personal injury lawsuits to file? not enough motorcycle cases to clog the courts with? that bruce deming? you aren't filibustering, bobbo. nope. just blustering.

http://www.brucedeming.com/video/arlington-virginia-injury-lawyer-describes-his-law-experience.cfm

that darn internet search feature!
 
Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB .

It's over Bob. Your man's been busted.
Be my guest if you wish to keep filibustering : this game is over.

The case moves on. The UCI is now the target.


I figure Paddy will give him a 6 months ban...back-dated, of course.

Far be it from me to say you are wrong, but...there are those that disagree with you.
You need to read Pat's deposition
http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/2012-09-21+McQuaid+Interview+Transcript.pdf

Pat is very angry by all accounts. Or so he says.

It's everyman for himself now, Bob.
To that end knowing Pat, he'll try to make the UCI appear whiter than white.
Pat should have done this before this situation arrived at this point but he thought all of this would "just go away".

Watch the recriminations start to fly as Pat & Co disown Armstrong.
McQuaid and Armstrong will be at each others throats before long.

UCI is the target now.
 
Originally Posted by slovakguy .

offered for those still in denial that this could happen to the most tested athlete ever--round about the eighteen minute mark. this is not a case assembled without crossing t's and dotting i's, which is to say, sworn testimony, affidavits, financial records and test samples. in particular, her statement, "anyone who doesn't accept that lance armstrong crossed the line is someone that doesn't want to know. [bobbo]" and, oh my, a bit of gravy about mr. armstrong and witness tampering.

(my eternal thanks to some wonderful folks at my lbs of choice for providing the link.)

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=8487101
Steve has kindly published all the links concerning evidence in this case on the doping thread.

If you thought the summary report issued by USADA was damning, the evidence in the links provided by Steve make for compelling and damning reading.
 

Similar threads