Lance Armstrong

[MSeries]

Originally posted by Dene Wilby


You miss my point

Dene [/B]

The question was 'Is Lance Armstring the best cyclist ever seen' or something along those lines. Most answers here are saying no he isn't. None are knocking guy, none are saying is not an outstanding athlete and none are saying he is not the at top of the sport at the moment (this could be debated but IMHO there is no real answer as to who is at the top right now, the world rankings are not a good indicator). What is your point ? That Lance is a top athlete, a very victorious cyclist and an incredible guy for surviving cancer so far ? No one here is doubting that, this does not make him the best cyclist ever though.

It is not possible to define best without considering the other contenders for the title and without defing the criteria. There are many other cyclists who acheive great feats. Armstrong is a professional racer and it is this on which he will be judged when such questions are asked because racing at that level is about winning and contributing to the team.


For the record Merckx had 525 professional victories, like Armstrong he won the Tour de France 5 times, has been a World Champion, which IMHO is not such a great achievement, Rudy Dhaenens won it for heavens sake, it is a one day race where nationalism and team loyalties conflict, but unike Armstrong Merckx has won the Tour of Italy, nearly all the classics, the Tour de France KOM and Points Jerseys, the Hour Record and many more Tour Stages that Armstrong so far.

 

[Peter Clinch]

Steve Holdoway wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:39:36 +0100, Peter Clinch
> <[email protected]> wrote:

>>Define "best cyclist". I'd imagine he would be beaten out of sight on any serious descent trails
>>by the local kids...

> Errr...
>
> Don't think so somehow. He's one of the world's best triathletes, too!

That doesn't really help you control a full on descent bike going down near cliffs in a forest
though, does it? That's about control and having one's fear glands removed, not power, but it's
still cycling.

But again, define "best cyclist"... This week Battle Mountain is again host to the speed trials for
fastest bikes and cyclists. Weather has been bad, so Sam Whittingham has "only" got the Varna Diablo
up to about 75 mph undrafted on the flat so far.

Sticking to the UCI's own idea of bikes, the other great blue riband aside from Le Tour is the hour
record. Last I saw it still had Chris Boardman's name on it. So again, define "best cyclist".

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email protected]
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Johnb]

Dene Wilby wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, gtg74 @btinternetDOT.com says...
> >
> > "Zog The Undeniable" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > > Barry Carson wrote:
> > >
> > > > Is Lance Armstrong the best cyclist the world has ever seen?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > No, Merckx was. That question shouldn't even be asked.
> > >
> >
> > Well said !
> >
> > Graham
>
> Jealousy? You know what, I bet if you guys were around when Merckx was at the top of his game
> you'd be slagging him off too.

I was 'around then' and compared to LA he is still the greatest. And no I did not **** him off -
what a silly comment.

> It's the old British thing isn't it? Build 'em up then knock 'em down. Some people just cannot
> stand to see others having success. Sad people. And criticizing the length of his socks and
> shorts? Oh dear!

Are you American by chance?

Armstrong is a great cyclist but he is a one event rider - the TdF. Merckx rode to *win* everything
and he did - the one day Classics, the major Tours, the Worlds, the Hour Record, Six-day track
races, - *everything*.

Look at his full record, then put that in your pipe and smoke it.

For heavens sake, he even rode at Eastway. Until LA does that he should not even be spoken of in the
same breath as Merckx.

John B

 

[Johnb]

Dene Wilby wrote:

> In article <1g1v19e.1i3ztfh160s5rvN%[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> > Dene Wilby <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > In article <[email protected]>, gtg74 @btinternetDOT.com says...
> > > > "Zog The Undeniable" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > > > Is Lance Armstrong the best cyclist the world has ever seen?

<snip>

> > Thats quite comical.Lance is a very good cyclist, but check out his race history over the last 5
> > years - what has he won?
>
> You miss my point, sure Merckx was awesome, that's not what i'm saying. All I am saying is that
> Lance is, undoubtably, the guy with the highest profile in his sport and some people just can't
> hack that. It IS jealousy and they'll take a pop at the slightest thing. I'm not comparing him
> with cyclists past and present, just some peoples attitudes to lifes winners.

So you are not even discussing cycling but wish to delve into general
psychology.

Off you trundle to a more appropriate ng then, there's a god chap.

John B

 

[Ross]

"Willowbeauty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Ross" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:WeIcb.335$%[email protected]...
> >
> > "pmj" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > the best where eddy merckx and bernard hinault armstrong is another doped extraordinary
> > > athlete but never the best peter
> > Doped? Lance has had more tests than most and all were negative. After
the
> > **** he had pumped through him during chemo I doubt he'd want to take
even
> > asprin let alone EPO etc.
>
> I think you'll find Lance has had more EPO than other Tour riders!
>
> -its part of the chemo process and I can't help feeling that by losing all that bodyweight and
> coming back a 'pure cyclist' in terms of new muscle build and EPO that he has gained a physical
> advantage. I am definitely not ignoring the fact though that it doesn't matter 'what you got' in
> terms of physique, he skill needs a tough head to actually 'put it into action'
>
>
>
I'll tell you what then. Get cancer, have it spread, have chemo and several operations and then see
just how good a cyclist you are afterwards. Been there, done that, and it hasn't improved my cycling
one bit. What it has done is given me new targets in life, maybe that's what has made Lance so good.
And EPO is not always part of the chemo process, some people are given EPO to boost the blood count
when it so low that you risk death.

 

[Willowbeauty]

"Ross" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Willowbeauty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Ross" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:WeIcb.335$%[email protected]...
> > >
> > > "pmj" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > the best where eddy merckx and bernard hinault armstrong is another doped extraordinary
> > > > athlete but never the best peter
> > > Doped? Lance has had more tests than most and all were negative. After
> the
> > > **** he had pumped through him during chemo I doubt he'd want to take
> even
> > > asprin let alone EPO etc.
> >
> > I think you'll find Lance has had more EPO than other Tour riders!
> >
> > -its part of the chemo process and I can't help feeling that by losing
all
> > that bodyweight and coming back a 'pure cyclist' in terms of new muscle build and EPO that he
> > has gained a physical advantage. I am definitely
not
> > ignoring the fact though that it doesn't matter 'what you got' in terms
of
> > physique, he skill needs a tough head to actually 'put it into action'
> >
> >
> >
> I'll tell you what then. Get cancer, have it spread, have chemo and
several
> operations and then see just how good a cyclist you are afterwards. Been there, done that, and it
> hasn't improved my cycling one bit. What it has done is given me new targets in life, maybe that's
> what has made Lance so good. And EPO is not always part of the chemo process, some people are
given
> EPO to boost the blood count when it so low that you risk death.

Fair enough, and I didn't suggest EPO was always part of the chemo process, but it was part of
Lance's given that the cancer had spread to multiple locations and his red blood cell count
was v. low.

I think you'll find Lance was pretty bloody good before the whole cancer thing (World Champ just for
starters) but I agree it has given him a completely new outlook on life

 

[Richard Corfiel]

In article <[email protected]>, Willowbeauty wrote:
>
> Fair enough, and I didn't suggest EPO was always part of the chemo process, but it was part of
> Lance's given that the cancer had spread to multiple locations and his red blood cell count
> was v. low.

IIRC, EPO boosts the white count when that is too low. You need a white count of 2 officially
(though for younger patients they'll allow 1) before starting each cycle of chemo. It helps to stick
to the 3 weekly cycle, rather than having chemo delayed. Pattern for me was for white count to drop
very low, then rise rapidly in the last day or so of the cycle, so they know when it recovers that
you've finally come round from the previous cycle. (Normal would be 5 or 6 or something)

Also a low white count is quite dangerous. Its so easy to pick up another illness, and even a
normally trivial illness can be quickly fatal. Any rise in body temperature and its in to hospital
and intravenous antibiotics for a couple of days whilst they work out if its an infection or not.
(After that experience, you're less willing to inform the doctors of a higher body temperature,
especially as fever is one of the side effects you can get anyway)

For low red count, they gave (in my case) blood transfusions to get you through it. This was my last
cycle, so there was no prep needed for later cycles, though someone else I know going through it is
having blood between cycles. I'd like to give blood now its a year after having received it, but am
not sure they'll let me. Must ask some time.

>
> I think you'll find Lance was pretty bloody good before the whole cancer thing (World Champ just
> for starters) but I agree it has given him a completely new outlook on life
>

He has worked hard after treatment to build himself up again. That takes a lot. I've met patients
who have stayed idle after treatment and are not back to what they were doing before, even after 2
years (and some others who did the Great North Run about 6 months after radiotherapy).

The book describes the training rides afterwards. After that kind of treatment, you have to really
work very hard to build up fitness, as its surprising how much general fitness you can take for
granted before you lose it and have to start from the beginning again. I don't know how many cycles
he had, but his was the stronger stuff at the time, and it quickly knocks you back.

- Richard

--
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Richard dot Corfield at ntlworld dot com _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/ Time is a
one way street, _/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ Except in the Twighlight Zone.