Lance or Jan Ullrich WHO IS BETTER?



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johnnyWalker

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Originally posted by Memphmann
Lance does this to make himself look better. Look at the other US rider that placed well this year. He use to race ith LA. Did he leave LA's team or get pushed out because LA felt threatened? What happens if LA or JU don't win the TdF? So whole debate is on personal choice.....

Memph
Not quite. If it's on personal choice than their wins and accomplishments should be about the same, but they are not. Lance Armstrong almost couldn't do anything more to prove this point. No doubt that Ullrich may be one of the most talented cyclists of all time, winning the Tour at 23. However,Lance has shown himself to be the best rider.
 

Memphmann

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Originally posted by johnnyWalker
Not quite. If it's on personal choice than their wins and accomplishments should be about the same, but they are not. Lance Armstrong almost couldn't do anything more to prove this point. No doubt that Ullrich may be one of the most talented cyclists of all time, winning the Tour at 23. However,Lance has shown himself to be the best rider.

Only in the TdF. Besides that race, LA is a weak **** rider with excuses for not finishing others.....

Memph
 

Lab_Rat

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Last I checked, neither LA nor JU were ranked No. 1. I am a staunch supporter of JU and I was just SOOOO disappointed when Jan fell on the penultimate stage of the Tour.

I'll concede that LA is probably the better TdF rider, however, his entire career is focussed towards this event. I'll also concede that LA is certainly the better bike handler and tactician, which probably makes him a better overall rider (in the Tour).

In the last TdF, Jan was often doing all the work for Armstrong. I couldn't figure it out. Lance was just always on Jan's wheel. But Lance also had much better cannon-fodder on his team and I believe that this is where he gets a big percentage of his advantage.

When Jan was still at Telekom, the team was strong, but they did alot of work for Erik Zabel in the flat stages to get him the green jersey, so they would not have been in the same position to focuss single-mindedly on the overall win.

I would really like to see Jan beat Armstrong. I certainly believe that he has the talent and the heart. He has just had so much bad luck.

Anyone who can push a 56 blade like JU is a hero in my books.

And for the record, Lance's american "tapping chest and pointing to his wife" before he set off on the last time trial was super cheesy.
 

Kathrin

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Originally posted by Memphmann
Lance does this to make himself look better. Look at the other US rider that placed well this year. He use to race ith LA. Did he leave LA's team or get pushed out because LA felt threatened? What happens if LA or JU don't win the TdF? So whole debate is on personal choice.....

Memph

I don't agree. If you have seen Lance congratulating Tyler after his stage win in Bayonne it is clear that they are still best of buddies. Talking about personal choice, hey, could it be you can't stand Lance?
 

Kathrin

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Originally posted by Lab_Rat
Anyone who can push a 56 blade like JU is a hero in my books.

But those big gears keep him from riding dynamically in the mountain stages. His style is like Indurain's, and I don't think this is the most up-to-date way to ride.
 

Memphmann

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Originally posted by Kathrin
I don't agree. If you have seen Lance congratulating Tyler after his stage win in Bayonne it is clear that they are still best of buddies. Talking about personal choice, hey, could it be you can't stand Lance?

Yes you are correct. I can not stand LA. He is a disgrace to cycling. Only attempting to win one major race. What about the other stage races, Worlds, Spring Classics? He is a weak seasonal racer.

Of coarse he would congrat Tyler. Easy to do when he is not on his team stealing his thunder. Would like have seen the look on LA's face if Tyler would have won the TdF......

Memph
 

Memphmann

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Originally posted by Kathrin
Originally posted by Lab_Rat
Anyone who can push a 56 blade like JU is a hero in my books.

But those big gears keep him from riding dynamically in the mountain stages. His style is like Indurain's, and I don't think this is the most up-to-date way to ride.

I know you are allowed to have your opinion. Get as strong as JU and then speak about his riding style. Until then, keep training....

Memph
 

JohnO

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Originally posted by Memphmann
Yes you are correct. I can not stand LA. He is a disgrace to cycling. Only attempting to win one major race. What about the other stage races, Worlds, Spring Classics? He is a weak seasonal racer.

Memph

Give Lance some serious competition in the next TDF, and then maybe you can call him a weak, seasonal rider.

Until then, keep training...

Personally, my attention is on Tyler - closing in on both of these guys, plus something that seems to be getting rather rare in cycling: humility.
 

Lab_Rat

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Er, how can we not call Lance a weak "SEASONAL" rider if he only focusses on one race.

But I will keep training.

Tyler and Vino (Alex) rode out of their skins. I'll give them credit too. And by the way, Ullrich didn't do too badly in the mountain stages using his "out of date" riding style.
 

wadoflove

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Originally posted by Memphmann
Yes you are correct. I can not stand LA. He is a disgrace to cycling. Only attempting to win one major race. What about the other stage races, Worlds, Spring Classics? He is a weak seasonal racer.

Of coarse he would congrat Tyler. Easy to do when he is not on his team stealing his thunder. Would like have seen the look on LA's face if Tyler would have won the TdF......

Memph

Memph,

You should check out the spring classics a little more carefully, I think you will find that Armstrong has tried pretty hard to win some of those races which in the end are all about being in the right break at the right time and not getting a flat or crashing at the wrong moment. He came 8th in the Amstel Gold Race this year, 20th in the Liege-Bastogne-Liege and looked like a possible winner until the last 7Km, won the Dauphine Libere stage race, came 2nd in one stage of the tour of Murcia and won the Criterium in Graz at the end of the season. His UCI ranking is 8th for 2003 and that includes ALL the world cup races so he couldn't have done too badly in any of them. Just for comparison, Ulrich was ranked 15th and Hamilton 11th. Check out this site: for info about how the rankings are calculated: http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=5148. Also, in the past he's also won the San Sebastian and has done well in the Zurich Meisterschaft, Tour of Spain and Tour of Switzerland (2nd in 2001). So the results should speak for themselves. BTW, what spring classics did Ullrich win? And Hamilton won Liege-Bastogne-Liege but what else? What other major stage races did these other guys win?? Where was Ullrich at the Worlds (which btw Armstrong has won in the past)?

I like Armstrong, I also admire Ullrich and Tyler Hamilton. Who is the better rider? That is a tough one to answer. All three are great athletes all three are great climbers and Armstrong and Ullrich are great time trialers with Hamilton improving. I think you have to look at the results. When Armstrong is fit he is the best of the three at time trials and climbing. Hamilton is probably a better climber than Ullrich. Ullrich could certainly be better if he would change his style and not try to push such big gears up the hills. I disagree with what Kathrin said about Ullrich climbing like Indurain, it is rather Armstrong who was inspired by the style of Indurain (smaller gears and higher cadence in the mountains) and he has said so in the past. Ullrich climbs like a lot of other climbers bigger gears and lower cadence, sitting in the saddle to conserve energy and avoid going anaerobic. That is why Armstrong wins in the mountains because he is simply the rider whose body uses oxygen the most efficiently allowing him to use more energy to climb out of the saddle for enough time to distance everyone else.

Tyler Hamilton and Armstrong are clearly friends, look at the way Tyler reacted when Armstrong went cyclocross in the Tour and again after he crashed on the Luz Ardiden stage (rode herd on the other riders until Armstrong rejoined the group). Look at the way Armstrong congratulated Hamilton for his win on Stage 16. Hamilton stated publicly that when he was asked to join CSC he sought and got the blessings of Armstrong. Sorry for the conspiracy theorists out there but Hamilton was not pushed out, he just outgrew US Postal.

If YOU had a chance to make history as the only rider ever to win the greatest stage race in the world 6 times in a row, would you risk everything on a relatively unimportant spring race where a crash could ruin your entire season? I think not. Armstrong has said it before. The Giro is not the Tour de France, the Vuelta is not the Tour de France... So if you can win this race more times than anyone else what is the point of winning all the others? Just to silence a few critics who know little about modern bicycle racing? Racing has changed a lot and for the better since the days of Merckx, the last great rider who could win everything. The leaders do not control the peloton, therefore there are many more breakaways, the average speed is much higher for the Tour etc. I'll bet that the great Eddy himself would not be able to win as many races if he were racing today.

Wad (of love).
 

Memphmann

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Originally posted by JohnO
Give Lance some serious competition in the next TDF, and then maybe you can call him a weak, seasonal rider.

Until then, keep training...

Personally, my attention is on Tyler - closing in on both of these guys, plus something that seems to be getting rather rare in cycling: humility.

Plz tell how good LA is when he actually wins another race besides the TdF. Until then keep dreaming......

Memph
 

wadoflove

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Nov 7, 2003
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Originally posted by Memphmann
Plz tell how good LA is when he actually wins another race besides the TdF. Until then keep dreaming......

Memph

So there! Thats your response? Very impressive. Well here is mine:

Since 1992 in Europe, World Champs and Olympics Armstrong has had 124 top ten and 66 podium finishes. 27 of those were Tour de France stages of which he won 15. He's had 7 other General Classification Podiums of which 4 were wins besides the 5 TdF wins. I am not counting all the American races he has won because I can't be bothered to look up the data. As for Ullrich I will let someone else do the details but he has had 111 top tens and 72 podiums but of course in different races. Check out the web site http://www.wielren.com/ for all your statistical needs.

Please remember I am not saying that either of them is a bad rider (unlike some people in this thread) they are probably the two most accomplished riders of this "generation". All I am saying is that you should check your facts before you start slagging off someone for not winning enough races. I had a quick look at other great Tour de France winners too. Perhaps you should look at what the other 5 time winners of the Tour were doing during the same years that they won the tour...

Also, keep in mind that Hinault's lieutenant in the mountains was Greg LeMond. So US Postal did not invent the idea of having strong climbers as team-mates but I think they have taken the idea to its logical conclusion.

Wad (of love)
 

Kathrin

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Oct 30, 2003
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All I am saying is that you should check your facts before you start slagging off someone for not winning enough races.

Thanks a lot for supplying all those interesting facts and turning this thread into a more factual discussion again.

As for my analogy between Indurain and Ullrich, apparently it was wrong. Sorry for that.
 

rossoreduk

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Oct 10, 2003
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oh talkin of Indurain, he was in my neck of the woods on the 8th of Nov........he erm....looks very different now! He was special guest at a charity dinner in Bradford.....miller was there too!
 

Memphmann

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Originally posted by Kathrin
All I am saying is that you should check your facts before you start slagging off someone for not winning enough races.

Thanks a lot for supplying all those interesting facts and turning this thread into a more factual discussion again.

As for my analogy between Indurain and Ullrich, apparently it was wrong. Sorry for that.

Could care little about seconds or thirds. Almost could have won? Looked good, but. What major race has LA won in the last couple of years?

Memph
 

wadoflove

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Originally posted by Memphmann
Could care little about seconds or thirds. Almost could have won? Looked good, but. What major race has LA won in the last couple of years?

Memph

Perhaps you don't read too good. Here let me repeat myself:
2003 - Dauphin Libere 2003 one stage win (Millar 2nd, Mayo 3rd)and GC 1st (followed by Mayo and Millar).
Graz Altstadt Criterium 1st (ahead of Eisel, Haselbacher and Totschnig).
2002 - Midi Libre GC 1st (beat Gonzalez de Galdeano and Azevedo), Dauphin Libere GC 1st (ahead of Landis and Moreau), Profronde van Stiphout 1st (ahead of Lombardi and Boogerd), City-Nacht Rede 1st (ahead of Leipheimer and Aldag).

Oh and of course there were those 2 TdF GC wins plus the 4 stage wins. And that does not include all those US races he has won...
 

milly valdes

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Jul 10, 2003
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Ullrich is cuter and very human: he gains weight, he loses weight, he gains, he loses. Jan is the comeback kid with the adorable foibles.

Armstrong is THE Comeback man (given his all-too-mentioned cancer). Like Ullrich, Lance has foibles. The difference is that Armstong is arrogant and "too perfect." So what that he can win a handful of Tours--- would you take him to your granny's for apple pie and a thimblefull of rocket moonshine? Not me, and I AM American (or are we Amerikkkans now!?)

Give me instead the German boy who likes to party, takes E, entertains self-doubt with a bunch of pals and a half dozen cupcakes with custard filling, can ride like an ubermensch, can come in 2nd many times, and make a baby----AND YOU HAVE A CHAMPION FOR HUMANITY!

Peace,
M
 
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