land speed record for dummies...



[email protected] aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Feb 3, 3:48 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> [email protected] aka Frank Krygowski wrote:> On Feb 3, 3:06 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> I drafted a pick-up truck pulling a wagon full of hay bales for several
>>>> miles at speeds of 40 to 50 kph (25 to 30 mph for USians) on a flat to
>>>> slightly rolling road. My effort was that of casual riding, while on the
>>>> same bicycle without a draft I would have "blown up" [1] riding at the
>>>> same speed over the same road.
>>> Did you use that to brag about how aero your bike was - while
>>> purposely omitting the fact that you were drafting?

>> No, and while said action would have been misleading, it would not have
>> been a lie, UNLESS the argument was made that the speed was solely due
>> to bicycle aerodynamics.

>
> We're on the edge of a breakthrough!
>
> Now you've admitted such a thing would have been misleading, but that
> it would not be a lie.
>

Now??? I wrote something similar days ago, and Mr. Jute appeared to
agree with my assessment.

> OK, now re-read the Fogel quote you're incensed about. Did he
> specifically say Jute's statement was a lie? Or is there a chance he
> was merely implying that Jute could be "misleading" people?
>

The implication was an accusation of a lie.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth
 
On Feb 3, 5:04 am, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article
> <925bb42e-7400-4ecd-a676-24abcceac...@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
>  Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 2, 5:39 pm, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > Ryan Cousineau of the Krygo-Fogel Begrudger Brigade

>
> > Huh? You want to make up a party with my googlebug golem, Carl "Gofer"
> > Fogel, and my temple dog, Frank "Fetch" Kryogowski, and call yourself
> > the Red Brigades?

>
> Yes Andre. Because along with their many vices, they share a common
> virtue: they don't turn into lunatics when they start typing Usenet
> posts.
>
> So valuable, so rare.
>
> > Man, I'm not so big on formal manners, but we don't ask the help to
> > sit down and we don't feed other people's dogs. The first leads to
> > impertinence and the second is too close to wife-stealing, almost up
> > there with the theft of a good cook.

>
> Andre, you were never asked to do anything more than explain the
> circumstances of some extraordinary claims.


****. Fogel never asked me a single question. He jumped in and called
me a liar an hour after Clive George asked me a question I didn't even
see until the next day (and promptly answered at that time). Fogel
meanwhile had written a second letter calling me a liar, and ponced
around agreeing with his gang of hangers-on, piling in, that I was a
liar. Again, that scum asked me no questions, and didn't wait for me
even to see Clive George's question, never mind answer it.

>If that gets your britches
> sufficiently twisted to begin a running fit of name-calling (or worse)
> here, well, you'd better clear your schedule and grab your thesaurus,
> because you've got a lot of angry posts ahead of you.


Fogel's crimes are more serious than just calling me a liar. See
http://groups.google.ie/group/rec.b...c6717/9aa5a449f0b2d688?hl=en#9aa5a449f0b2d688

> But you know, the biggest journey starts with a single step,


Absolututely. Fogel was offered the opportunity to say he didn't call
me a liar. He refused it, saying "I won't."

> --
> Ryan Cousineau [email protected]://www.wiredcola.com/
> "In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
> "In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."


Andre Jute
Zero tolerance for gangs of netbullies
 
I thought this fellow Ryan Cousineau was running around like a blue-
**** baboon, accusing me of starting a needless flamewar. But if this
long toilet-roll of lies, distortions and immoralities from him isn't
exactly what he accuses me of, what is?

Andre Jute
Zero tolerance for dual standards -- and the fools who practice them


On Feb 3, 8:09 am, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
>  Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <925bb42e-7400-4ecd-a676-24abcceac...@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> > >  Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > >> On Feb 2, 5:39 pm, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >>> Ryan Cousineau of the Krygo-Fogel Begrudger Brigade
> > >> Huh? You want to make up a party with my googlebug golem, Carl "Gofer"
> > >> Fogel, and my temple dog, Frank "Fetch" Kryogowski, and call yourself
> > >> the Red Brigades?

>
> > > Yes Andre. Because along with their many vices, they share a common
> > > virtue: they don't turn into lunatics when they start typing Usenet
> > > posts.

>
> > > So valuable, so rare.

>
> > >> Man, I'm not so big on formal manners, but we don't ask the help to
> > >> sit down and we don't feed other people's dogs. The first leads to
> > >> impertinence and the second is too close to wife-stealing, almost up
> > >> there with the theft of a good cook.

>
> > > Andre, you were never asked to do anything more than explain the
> > > circumstances of some extraordinary claims.

>
> > Nothing more? It is absolutely clear that Mr. Fogel was insinuating that
> > Mr. Jute was lying. It would not be the first, or even the second time
> > Mr. Fogel has made false accusations of lying.

>
> Oh for heaven's sake. You know what? If you post something that appears,
> in the obvious cases, to violate what is physically possible, yeah, you
> might get suspected of lying.
>
> Also, who cares. People who don't want to get accused of lying shouldn't
> post on Usenet. People with thin skins should avoid posting on Usenet.
>
> Heck, I probably shouldn't post on Usenet, because I rise to bait like
> this. Right now, I am re-reminded that I have long thought that the
> smartest person ever to visit this forum was Mark Hickey.
>
> You know when I started thinking that? The day he decided to leave.
>
> Dear rbt, why can't I quit you?
>
> Back to my point, Andre's most interesting contribution to rbt so far
> has been his creative writing. His least interesting contribution has
> been his hobby of tilting at windmills he insists are named "Carl."
>
> But I guess it's cheaper than therapy.
>
> > > If that gets your britches
> > > sufficiently twisted to begin a running fit of name-calling (or worse)
> > > here, well, you'd better clear your schedule and grab your thesaurus,
> > > because you've got a lot of angry posts ahead of you.

>
> > > But you know, the biggest journey starts with a single step,

>
> > Like seeing the less pleasant sides of people behind the veneer of false
> > charm?

>
> Oh yeah, Tom. Carl's such an angry monster. Me too! Angry angry! Grr!
> Watch me scare people with my pointed posts and Grade 6 vocab! Graaar!
> I'm unpleasant! I make "therapy" jokes about people because they act
> nutty on Usenet! I suggest people explain extraordinary theories and
> claims! So very unpleasant! I can totally see how Carl's attempts to
> question things, do actual tests, and pore through research texts could
> totally annoy people here.
>
> No, wait, I can't, except that I have to accept that there's a lot of
> people who are either taking Usenet too seriously, take themselves too
> seriously, or aren't used to being asked questions by apparently nice
> people.
>
> If your definition of "less pleasant" is veiled, inquisitive suggestions
> that there's something odd about a story posted in rbt, then I'm not
> sure how you ever survived grade school. Because I gotta tell you, on an
> unpleasantness scale of 1 (Roger Hargreaves' Mr. Happy*) to 10 (Stalin),
> Carl's somewhere around a 3. He's pleasant enough to get a job at the
> Build-A-Bear Workshop*.
>
> It's at this point I should probably make some sort of ObBike section
> like I usually try to do, and here it is:
>
> Anyone had any good experiences with the Exustar cold-weather high-top
> boots? Or, similarly, the various Shimano models? I'm realizing that
> either boot is not much more expensive than a set of booties, which
> might make them good choices for my winter madness. I'm especially
> interested in performance during classic Vancouver conditions: 3 hours
> of riding in 3C drizzle.
>
> Now, back to my not-very-bicycling silliness...where was I?
>
> Oh yes, final thoughts.
>
> The reason I'm writing this is mainly because I have seen before the
> case of clever people who post stuff I like reading getting driven off
> of online fora by louder or angrier people, or people who simply had
> more time on their hands, for no other reason than not wanting to put up
> with the silliness anymore.
>
> I've thought about this carefully, done a little reading, contemplated
> the various contributions of the people in recent discussions, and,
> well, while it's not my place to actually pass out judgments that have
> any strength, I'd point out to Mr. Jute that his signal/noise ratio is
> rather low, and his fly-off-the-handle-for-no-good-reason rating (IMHO)
> is pretty severely high, even in this group with no small number of thin
> skins.
>
> Do you remember, Tom, why Andre got so mad? It was, as far as I can
> tell, basically two lines by Carl:
>
> "I'm not surprised that you got no real answer beyond that vague
> tarmacadam farm lane that only one farmer uses, continent
> unspecified...etc"
>
> "And I'd still be pleased to find that my skepticism is wrong and
> that there is a paved farm lane long enough and steep enough for that
> kind of bike to do well over 100 kmh."
>
> I mean, wow. With criticism like that, one can certainly see how Carl
> got his reputation for the veiled sneer, the cruel cut, and manners that
> would horrify the prettiest clique of girls at Beverly Hills High School.
>
> But you know, I'm sorta being sarcastic now.
>
> I guess Andre is entertaining after a fashion, but please: I actually
> had to read back stuff in previous threads largely because I trust you
> as a semi-reliable source of opinions.
>
> I'm not sure why you're carrying water for Andre, but you know, I guess
> it's a hobby.
>
> As for Andre, I can only direct you to the work of Gorilla Magilla in
> rbr as something to aspire to. He really knows how to work a crowd.
>
> Share & Enjoy,
>
> * <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/4858304.stm>
>
> **Those employees are seriously perky and pleasant. I know there is a
> strong element of true-believer self-selection in the hiring process,
> but my experiences there have been uniformly impressive on the
> enthusiastic-and-happy scale. I could see where it would be downright
> frightening to anyone of a naturally suspicious mindset, as even I found
> it slightly unnerving, and I like happy people!
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau [email protected]://www.wiredcola.com/
> "In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
> "In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
 
On Feb 3, 12:42 pm, Lou Holtman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Tom Sherman wrote:
> > I do not see how a speed of approximately 105 kph while drafting a cube
> > van is so hard to believe.

>
> Drafting (not towed) on such a bike at a speed of 105 kph behind a cube
> van is very very hard to believe IMO.
>
> Lou


The point is, Lou, you asked me a question about it, you didn't accuse
me of lying as Fogel did. And from your question we came via
aerodynamics to the importance of the fact that the 105kph was being
towed behind a truck.

Tom knows I was towed behind a truck; he just misspoke. But in the
atmosphere on RBT, one can forgive people who do not open their mouths
at all for fear of the trash running around trying to turn even the
most innocent statement made in passing into a lie simply so that they
can increase their smug self-importance.

Andre Jute
Coffee with extra caffeine
 
Tom Sherman wrote:
> J. Taylor wrote:
> > On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 06:27:00 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:
> >
> > [ (some) extraneous matter snipped; readers (especially those who have a
> > demonstrated weakness in counting quote characters) are advised that the
> > remaining initial paragraphs are retained for context ]
> >
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Man, I'm not so big on formal manners, but we don't ask the help to
> >>>>>> sit down and we don't feed other people's dogs. The first leads to
> >>>>>> impertinence and the second is too close to wife-stealing, almost up
> >>>>>> there with the theft of a good cook.
> >>>>> Andre, you were never asked to do anything more than explain the
> >>>>> circumstances of some extraordinary claims.
> >>>> >
> >>>> Nothing more? It is absolutely clear that Mr. Fogel was insinuating that
> >>>> Mr. Jute was lying. It would not be the first, or even the second time
> >>>> Mr. Fogel has made false accusations of lying.
> >>>>
> >>> Nor, if true, would it be the only lie than Andre Jute has told on this
> >>> newgroup.
> >> >
> >> If it is true, how can it also be a lie?

> >
> > I'll assume you are not sharing the Jute trait of willfull misunderstanding
> > - the reference of "if true" refers to the (putative) assertion of Fogel
> > that Jute was indeed lying.
> >

> I was asking for clarification.
>
> > As that that charchaterisation of Fogel's
> > posts is not proven, I offer another (my own) which is indisputable both in
> > its statement and its veracity.
> >

> Maybe not proven on the newsgroup,


I might agree that the fact that Carl Fogel called me a liar without
any evidence at all, and in contradiction of the evidence when it
appeared, is "maybe not proven *to* the newsgroup" because some of
Creepy Carl's most undiscriminating hangers-on are blind to truth, but
I have no doubt that it is "proven beyond doubt *on* the newsgroup",
because the sensible and impartial people have all grasped what's
going here.

>but the several people whom Mr. Fogel
> has falsely accused of lying certainly know how to characterize his
> behavior.
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> "And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."


Andre Jute
Prepositions matter a lot because they indicate direction in sentences
> - A. Derleth
 
On Feb 3, 4:38 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> >  Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> >> Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>> Tom Sherman wrote:

>
> >>>> I do not see how a speed of approximately 105 kph while drafting a
> >>>> cube van is so hard to believe.
> >>> Drafting (not towed) on such a bike at a speed of 105 kph behind a cube
> >>> van is very very hard to believe IMO.

>
> >> Not with the combination of the large low pressure area created behind
> >> the cube van combined with a downhill road.

>
> >> Less believable is the contention that certain other people were not
> >> implying Mr. Jute was lying, before the full story was posted.

>
> > Tom, you are demonstrating that you don't know the difference between
> > being accused of lying and being accused of being mistaken.

>
> Mr. Fogel falsely accused me of lying (through his knowledge gained by
> telepathic mind reading, one presumes) and has refused to admit his
> error or apologize. This establishes past behavior, which makes it all
> the easier to recognize its re-occurrence.
>
> > What, is it a genetic anomaly? You don't have the "make sense of
> > conversations" gene?

>
> The implication of Mr. Fogel post was clear - Mr. Fogel did not believe
> Mr. Jute.
>
> > And you know what? If someone on this ng accused me of lying, I'd
> > clarify my statement or not, and move on. The fact that Jute is now
> > posting a fairly massive volume of vitriol devoted to this pissant
> > dispute suggests that no matter what else he may think, he doesn't have
> > the "sense of proportionality" gene.

>
> Mr. Fogel should not have made a judgment until Mr. Jute posted all the
> relevant details of his (Mr. Jute's) story.
>
> > But you know, if it makes the two of you happy, who am I to deny you
> > your hobby? Keep calm and carry on...

>
> It was interesting to note the amount of "me too" piling on, almost like
> there is a cult of "Fogelism".


Bingo. I was just waiting for someone else to notice that. It is to
protect his image as the leader of the group that Fogel made his
abortive attack on me; he told us himself that anyone "flamboyant" is
a threat.. i wonder what made him silly enough to believe I'm a
possible target for a provincial nobody like him? What a colossal
waste of time that jerk's hubris is causing.

> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> "And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
> - A. Derleth


Andre Jute
I was a provincial nobody once. I liked being a country boy.
 
On Feb 3, 11:34 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
wrote:
> [email protected] aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> > On Feb 3, 3:48 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >> [email protected] aka Frank Krygowski wrote:> On Feb 3, 3:06 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> I drafted a pick-up truck pulling a wagon full of hay bales for several
> >>>> miles at speeds of 40 to 50 kph (25 to 30 mph for USians) on a flat to
> >>>> slightly rolling road. My effort was that of casual riding, while on the
> >>>> same bicycle without a draft I would have "blown up" [1] riding at the
> >>>> same speed over the same road.
> >>> Did you use that to brag about how aero your bike was - while
> >>> purposely omitting the fact that you were drafting?
> >> No, and while said action would have been misleading, it would not have
> >> been a lie, UNLESS the argument was made that the speed was solely due
> >> to bicycle aerodynamics.

>
> > We're on the edge of a breakthrough!

>
> > Now you've admitted such a thing would have been misleading, but that
> > it would not be a lie.

>
> Now??? I wrote something similar days ago, and Mr. Jute appeared to
> agree with my assessment.


Absolutely. I accepted Tom's interpretation that the truck and the tow
should have been mentioned in my original post to Chalo, which was
just a passing mention of the speed. But that is no excuse for Creepy
Carl calling me a liar before I had a chance to answer questions.
However, I also said -- have these clowns making further accusations
read the threads or do they all have Alzheimer's? -- that I didn't
know the truck was important in the story until Lou asked me a
question whose clear direction was aerodynamics. By then I had long,
long been called a liar by Fogel -- that scumball called me a liar
before I even saw Clive George's question, never mind having a chance
to reply. My background is in cars; it never occurred to me that
anyone would suspect me of going 100kph on a bike unassisted; to me
the truck was axiomatic, too obvious to mention.

> > OK, now re-read the Fogel quote you're incensed about.  Did he
> > specifically say Jute's statement was a lie?  Or is there a chance he
> > was merely implying that Jute could be "misleading" people?

>
> The implication was an accusation of a lie.


Made in several posts. Fogel could not stop vomiting his accusation
for several hours.

> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> "And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
> - A. Derleth


Andre Jute
The truth will out
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:

> Really? I noted at least two (2) previous occasional where Mr. Fogel
> posted false accusations of lying, which to this day he has neither
> retracted or apologized for.


Let us have the Message-ID.
In fact, Carl Fogel never said Andre Jute lied.
Andre Jute did call Carl Fogel a liar.

--
Michael Press
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:

> At one time, Mr. Jute would have been justified in filing a libel suit
> against Mr. Fogel, and in an earlier time, challenging Mr. Fogel to a
> dual. Accusations of lying should not be made lightly.


duel

--
Michael Press
 
Michael Press wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> At one time, Mr. Jute would have been justified in filing a libel suit
>> against Mr. Fogel, and in an earlier time, challenging Mr. Fogel to a
>> dual. Accusations of lying should not be made lightly.

>
> duel
>

spel cheker

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth
 
Michael Press wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Really? I noted at least two (2) previous occasional where Mr. Fogel
>> posted false accusations of lying, which to this day he has neither
>> retracted or apologized for.

>
> Let us have the Message-ID.
> In fact, Carl Fogel never said Andre Jute lied.
> Andre Jute did call Carl Fogel a liar.
>

Already posted in the other thread.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth
 

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