Landis & Armstrong implicated in blood doping; recordings publiished by l'Equipe

Discussion in 'Professional Cycling' started by whiteboytrash, Oct 15, 2006.

  1. whiteboytrash

    whiteboytrash New Member

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    Andreu and Vaughters "gossiped" about US Postal's alleged doping practices

    L'Equipe, in its Saturday, October 14 edition, has published excerpts of an electronic conversation between Jonathan Vaughters, team director of development squad TIAA-Cref, and Frankie Andreu, former US Postal rider. The communication, which reportedly took place on July 26, 2005, was presented by Andreu's wife Betsy during the court case opposing Lance Armstrong and insurance company SCA in February 2006. In it, the two former teammates of the seven-times Tour de France winner, converse about doping within cycling, and, more precisely, within the US Postal team.

    In the article, L'Equipe quotes Andreu, who has recently admitted that he used EPO to boost his performances in 1999, the first year Armstrong won the Tour, as writing that he was surprised when Vaughters said that during his time at Crédit Agricole, he did not receive any injections. Vaughters, who had been with the US Postal cycling team from 1998-1999, rode for the French squad from 2000-2002.

    "When I was at Crédit Agricole, all the teams were supposed to receive 25 injections per day... Well, at Crédit, there were zero!" said Vaughters according to the article, to which Andreu is reported to have replied: "You're saying that no rider received any injection? That's crazy..." Vaughters: "That's when I realized that Lance was really fooling us when he said that everybody was doing as we did... Believe me, as crazy as it may seem, Moreau didn't take anything, his hematocrit was 39."

    The current TIAA-Cref manager is said to have continued by saying that he "could explain how Lance fools everybody. With everything Floyd [Landis?] told me, I know the method exactly. [...] It's very complicated to get around the controls now but there is no new product or miracle thing, it's just a question of money and very precise planning. That explains why they all got dropped. They didn't have their tanks full, and then, during the rest day, boom! 800 millilitres of red blood cells, stored in bags. They took that blood out just after the Dauphiné." According to L'Equipe, Vaughters was alluding to stage seven of the Tour de France that year, when Lance Armstrong was left without teammates in the relatively easy climbs of the Alsace region, one day prior to the race's first rest day.

    "But how do they store and hide it during all that time?" Andreu then asked. "I'm sure it's not in the bus fridges." To which Vaughters replied, "It's transported on a motorbike, in frozen cases. Floyd has photos of all of that."
     
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  2. JohnO

    JohnO New Member

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    Why would Vaughters and Andreau be discussing this at all? They were both on Postal during the time period that the discussion covers. If blood doping were going on, they would already know it, and wouldn't need to put on a Q&A session. Instead, this conversation reads like Andreau knew nothing, and Vaughters was bringing him up to date. Seems a little prepackaged, a bit too convenient. And transporting frozen blood on a motorbike? The darn things have been known to crash, and you'd have evidence scattered all over the road. If a meticulous planner like Armstrong were doping, I think he'd pick a safer and more predictable transport method. I'm not saying Lance didn't dope, just that he wasn't stupid.

    And consider the source for this story - Betsy 'One Oar In The Water' Andreau. One thing is for sure, 'that time of month' in the Adreau household must be hell.
     
  3. Bro Deal

    Bro Deal New Member

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    It doesn't read like that at all. It just seems that Andreau bought into Armstrong's excuses that everyone was doing it, so it's no big deal. Vaughter's believed it too until he went to a team that operated differently. It is exactly the same line Armstrong used at Motoroloa when trying to convince his teammates to use EPO.

    Armstrong has already confirmed the motorcycles with cold packs. His explanation is--get this--they were transporting food because he did not trust the dastardly French. Yeah, sure.
     
  4. wolfix

    wolfix New Member

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    Old news..... People need to get over the fact that LA is in the record book with 7 wins. That is never going to change. And people really do not care if he doped or not. It is a bike race, nothing more then that.

    LA has moved on, his fans have moved on....... The sport has more problems right now other then doping issues. The ProTour vs Grand Tours is a real problem facing cycling.

    Your statement........ " It is exactly the same line Armstrong used at Motoroloa when trying to convince his teammates to use EPO," has no basis in fact. Do you know this to be a fact? You make this statement like you have inside knowledge.

    Also ..... Show me where Armstrong has acknowledged the motorcycles carrying cold packs......
     
  5. kiwivelo

    kiwivelo New Member

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    Yawn yawn... that article is nothing more than a dodgy sounding conversation between two riders, printed by an equally dodgy French newspaper on an Anti USA and anti Lance crusade.

    Face up to it Lance was a freak on a bike and WAS that much better than the rest.

    WBT needs to get off the anti American soapbox.
     
  6. Bro Deal

    Bro Deal New Member

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    Stephen Swart's testimony backs it up to the hilt. And that is a fact.
     
  7. Klodifan

    Klodifan New Member

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    Well, as you said LA has moved on but I think it is a valid issue since his post career is based on his cycling career. He would not be where he is today without those wins, so makes him out to be a fraud... a fraud who markets himself as a clean winner. But in America people don't care enough about cycling so whether or not he doped is sort of a moot point. That's unfortunate.
     
  8. kiwivelo

    kiwivelo New Member

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    I have seen the Stephen Swart interview and at no stage in that interview does he say he saw Lance use, ask for, or be in possession of performance enhancing products. He insinuated a lot about team mates and other riders but he had nothing on Lance, and his allegations were never backed up with anything solid.
     
  9. wolfix

    wolfix New Member

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    That's a stupid reply. How do you know what Americans think of cycling? I have followed this sport over 30 years. I have rode in races with a guy who won the TDF 3 times and another who won the Giro.

    The man who introduced me to the sport was a mechanic for Campagnolo in the TDF on several occasions.

    I have a daughter who lives in Denmark and her boyfriend is a big LA fan.

    The fact is this..... La has never been convicted of doping. He won the TDF 7 times. {easily at that}

    And your comment as to the American part suggests that is the problem you have with LA. The fact he is American. That is your issue here.
     
  10. wolfix

    wolfix New Member

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    And what gives Swart credibility?
     
  11. wolfix

    wolfix New Member

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    Show us the testimony where he says this.
    Show us the statements that LA made supporting your statement on the cold packages on th emotorcycle.....
     
  12. Klodifan

    Klodifan New Member

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    For the record, I am an American. I don't care if LA was from Timbukto, I would still feel the same way about him. And considering that less than one million American people tune into cycling's biggest race and don't understand that it is a team sport, makes my previous reply relevant. People don't really care about cycling in the States, if they did then LA would be hounded by the media the way Barry Bonds of MLB is hounded. As it is, he gets a pass because the depth of knowledge held by most over here is that he is that one guy who had cancer and won that one race a bunch of times and oh that is cool. Case Closed.
     
  13. kiwivelo

    kiwivelo New Member

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    But in America people don't care enough about cycling so whether or not he doped is sort of a moot point. That's unfortunate.[/QUOTE]


    Total rubbish. I have seen crowds of up to 4,000 watching track racing in the states, and thousands more watching Crits. Have you seen how many Americans holiday on bikes in Europe?.... We have thousands of them visit our country every summer and they DO have a strong interest in cycling.
     
  14. Klodifan

    Klodifan New Member

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    Ummm... ok. 4000 out of 300 million? Yeah, that is substantial enough to support your position. Compare that to other sports then maybe you'll get some perspective.
     
  15. kiwivelo

    kiwivelo New Member

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    I hardly think there is just one cycling track in the US....and one Crit...
     
  16. wolfix

    wolfix New Member

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    I was on a ride this summer and I saw LA being hounded all day. Everyone knew who he was. Even the old ladies. Also if you understood cycling you would understand dope has always been part of it. To hate a rider because he may or may not dope make you sound rather naive about the sport. You must not have followed the sport very long.
    I don't know who you follow as a fan, but you don't have a clue if they are clean.

    True, cycling is not a mainstream sport here. But to say American fans follow LA because he had cancer is not right. That put him in the limelight, but his dominance of all other riders in July is what made him popular in America. I had a pub that international students hung out in. I found the average European student no more knowledgable then American students. I personally think cycling is a very boring sport to watch on TV. I love watching live action and watching the last 1/2 hour, but the rest can be somewhat uninteresting.

    If you have ever been to a major N American race then you know the crowds turn out. Are these people stupid?

    LA gets a pass because you have to consider the source of articles like you posted.
     
  17. Bjorn P.Dal

    Bjorn P.Dal New Member

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    Here is part of what L'equipe printed:


    Frankie Andreu : « Ils n’arrêteront pas… »
    LORS DE SON AUDITION à Dallas, en février dernier,
    dans le cadre du litige qui opposait Lance
    Armstrong à la compagnie d’assurances SCA, Betsy
    Andreu, l’épouse de l’ancien coureur Frankie Andreu
    (ex-coéquipier d’Armstrong chez Motorola) qui a
    récemment reconnu avoir eu recours à l’EPO, a présenté
    l’extrait d’une conversation électronique (le
    26 juillet 2005) entre son mari (FDREU) et Jonathan
    Vaughters, manager de la formation américaine
    TIAA-CREF et également ex-équipier d’Armstrong
    (Cyclingvaughters). Extrait.
    « Cyclingvaughters : Quand j’étais au Crédit Agricole,
    toutes les équipes étaient supposées recevoir
    25 injections par jour… Eh bien, au Crédit, il y en
    avait zéro !
    – FDREU : Tu veux dire qu’aucun coureur ne recevait
    d’injection ? C’est dingue…
    – Cyclingvaughters : C’est là que j’ai réalisé que
    Lance nous racontait vraiment des conneries quand il
    disait que tout le mondefaisait comme nous…Croismoi,
    aussi dingue que cela puisse paraître, Moreau
    ne prenait rien, son hématocrite était à 39.
    – FDREU : En 2000-2001 ?
    – Cyclingvaughters : Oui… Alors, bien sûr, on
    commence à réfléchir. Putain, Kevin (Livingston, qui
    avait quitté l’US Postal fin 2000 pour aller chez Telekom)
    m’a dit qu’après 2000 Ullrich ne courait jamais
    au-dessus de 42 !
    – FDREU : Après 1999, beaucoup de choses ont
    changé. Pas Lance. J’imagine que c’est pour ça que
    Kevin s’est tiré. Il en avait marre de tout ça.
    – Cyclingvaughters : Je pourrais expliquer comment
    Lance dupe tout le monde. Par rapport à tout ce
    que Floyd (on imagine qu’il s’agit de Landis) m’a
    décrit, je connais exactement la méthode.
    –FDREU: Quandas-tu parlé avec Floyd ?Et qu’as-tu
    pensé de GH(George Hincapie) qui grimpait les montagnes
    mieux qu’Azevedo et tous les autres ? C’est
    possible d’être un coureur de classiques et de devenir
    grimpeur ?
    – Cyclingvaughters : Je ne sais pas. Je veux faire
    confiance à George. Le truc, c’est que, quand tu es
    dans l’équipe, tu es persuadé que tout cela est normal.
    En tout cas, c’est ce que je croyais.
    – FDREU : Alors que tout ce qui touche au sang n’est
    pas normal…
    – Cyclingvaughters : Ouais… C’est très compliqué
    d’éviter les contrôles maintenant mais il n’y a
    aucun nouveau produit ou truc miracle, c’est juste
    une question de moyens et de planification très pointue.
    Ça explique pourquoi ils se sont tous fait lâcher
    (dans le Tour 2005, les Discovery Channel avaient été
    lâchés dans l’ascension du ballon d’Alsace). Ils
    n’avaient pas encore fait le plein et puis, juste après,
    lors du jour de repos, boum ! 800 ml de globules
    rouges, conservés dans des poches. Ils avaient prélevé
    ce sang juste après le Dauphiné…
    – FDREU : Mais comment le conservent-ils et le
    cachent-ils pendant tout ce temps ? Je suis sûr que ce
    n’est pas dans les frigos du bus…
    – Cyclingvaughters : Il est transporté par moto,
    dans des paniers réfrigérés, les jours de repos. Floyd a
    des photos de tout ça.
    – FDREU : Ça devient incroyable !
    – Cyclingvaughters : Oui, c’est compliqué mais,
    avec beaucoup d’argent, on y arrive.
    – FDREU : Sûr qu’ils ont assez d’argent. Floyd (qui
    courait alors pour Phonak) était tellement remonté
    contre eux pendant tout le Tour.
    –Cyclingvaughters : Je suis désolé pour lui et tous
    les autres gars. Pourquoi Lance continue-t-il toute
    cette merde ; il n’a plus rien à prouver, c’est quand
    même étrange…
    – FDREU : Les gars sont tous entraînés là-dedans,
    sans véritable raison. Grâce à Dieu, il a fini maintenant.
    Sauf que l’an prochain, pour le bon plaisir de
    Johan (Bruyneel, le manager de l’équipe Discovery
    Channel), ils vont vouloir prouver qu’ils sont encore
    les meilleurs. Ils n’arrêteront pas… »




    Moreau at 39%, Ullrich never above 42% in 2000 (according to kevin livingston). I wonder why cyclingnews didnt mention the Ullrich part...
     
  18. Bro Deal

    Bro Deal New Member

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    Why should we give Armstrong's denials any more credibility than Swart, espcially when Swart has nothing to gain and Armstrong has everything and there is a mountain of other evidence to back up Swart?
     
  19. wolfix

    wolfix New Member

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    Mountain of evidence? kiwivelo stated earlier in a post that he saw the interview. And Swart did not target LA. And all the tests in competition and and out of competition did not show anything. So, when you use the words "mountains of evidence," your posts are as misleading as the articles coming out of that rag in France.

    Earlier you said that LA acknowledged "frozen packs" on a motorbike. Let's see where that was said by LA.

    I don't think you would know the difference between what a fact is and gossip used to destroy the greatest TDF rider yet. And oh yeah..... If you use the argument that Eddy was the greatest TDF rider, remember ... Eddy was a convicted doper. Lance is not. So using your allegations that LA is a fraud, you are a fool. The sport you have been following is a fraud by that definition. .
    Case closed.
     
  20. BottleCage

    BottleCage New Member

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    Also in Europe they really do not care either. Look at all the people in Europe who still worship Pantani and Museew. Regardless of the evidence that shows they were dirty probably most if not all of their careers.
     
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