Landis Innocent! on CNN and Lance agrees!!!

Discussion in 'Professional Cycling' started by bobke, Jul 28, 2006.

  1. whiteboytrash

    whiteboytrash New Member

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    ...it’s all a bit late... Floyd has already said publicly that there 'may' be a conspiracy in regards to the French lab. If you brings a US doctors research forward then the prosecution will state just that... you question the ethics and the methods of the French lab, then we'll question the ethics and methodology of US doctor below... Landis has shot himself in the foot re: his defence.... he should of kept his mouth shut and not hired so many cronies in 3 countries to speak on his behalf... its not science that will get him off its perception that will....


     


  2. pspurr

    pspurr New Member

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    For the sport, the fans and the detractors it is all just a circus. I would like to believe in the man's innocence.

    Unfortunately, I can only read the postings and follow the news, and have no science to back up any of my own opinions. It would seem strange to have some kind of chemical show up in the urine sample one day, and not the next. I probably have overlooked something, but I would hope that the samples would be taken and analyzed after every stage for every competitor.

    Are only the winners targeted? Who monitors the chain of custody and the actual physical security of the samples? Are there unbiased observers? It would seem that if someone's livelihood and way of life were at stake that the tests would be subject to the same scrutiny as any legal proceedings. It all sucks! Is any competitor in the sport safe? Appears that the tour has become just another political stage for throwing crap.
     
  3. lonympics

    lonympics New Member

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  4. lonympics

    lonympics New Member

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  5. acpinto

    acpinto New Member

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    Tim Montgomery, Marion Jones, Carl Lewis... should i stop
     
  6. cynic

    cynic New Member

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    What you say is absolutely true.
    However, it does not explain why the t/e ratio was elevated once and not every time he was tested (or at least certainly on more than one occasion) since the cortisone treatment and other medications are part of an ongoing treatment.
    Also consider that the t/e positive was not barely out of range, 11-1 vs 4-1.
    The strongest indictment in my opinion, though, is the fact that the 11-1 is a result of testosterone within normal range coupled with an abnormally low epitestosterone level. This means that Floyd's body had suppressed production of epitestosterone. Why?
    May I suggest the answer is doping.
    A lengthy course of synthetic testosterone treatment will suppress the natural production of both testosterone and epitestosterone. This will leave the doper with a low epitestosterone level and a testosterone level that is proportional to the dosage of synthetic testosterone taken in.
    This will result in positive doping teats for elevated t/e in precisely the way that Landis was caught, unless the t/e is brought into balance with the appropriate dosage of epitestosterone.
    (That is why the infamous BALCO cream was a careful mix of both testosterone and epitestosterone)
    My conclusion is that Landis missed taking the appropriate dosage of epitestosterone as a masking agent prior to the start of Stage 17.

    Also, It is clear that Landis is not confident in using meds as a defence, as he appears to be focusing on the integrity of the anti-doping process.

    A summary of the bewildering variety of Landis excuses follows: (Not lending to his credibility)

    July 27, 2006 (Associated Press) Don’t know

    In a teleconference Thursday evening, Landis insisted he didn't cheat to win the Tour and doesn't know why he tested positive


    July 27, 2006 (Associated Press) Meds for hypothyroidism and cortisone for hip defence

    The 30-year-old Landis said he takes medication for hypothyroidism and has a medical exemption for cortisone injections to alleviate discomfort in his right hip, fractured in a training crash three years ago. He plans to have the joint replaced within two months. He said he does not know if either medication could affect his testosterone levels.


    July 27, 2006 (Associated Press) Beer and Jack Daniel's defence

    Landis said he had drunk moderate amounts of beer and Jack Daniel's whiskey the night before the test. Elite cyclists generally avoid alcohol during major events, but Landis had just suffered a mortifying meltdown in the Alps. He thought his chances of winning the Tour were slim and was looking for ``a way to get through the night," he said.


    July 28, 2006 (Associated Press) Naturally high testosterone defence

    “Landis is still awaiting results from a backup sample, which would clear him immediately if found to be negative. But his lawyer, Luis Sanz, said he fully expected the backup test to come back with the same result, since the elevated testosterone was produced naturally by Landis’s body.”


    Aug. 4, 2006 (Associated Press) Dehydration defence

    Dehydration is the latest possible reason offered for Tour de France winner Floyd Landis's elevated testosterone levels. "Maybe a combination of dehydration, maximum effort," Jose Maria Buxeda, the cyclist's lawyer, said Thursday after testing began on his backup sample. That theory was flatly rejected by one of the world's top anti-doping officials. "In 25 years of experience of testing... such a huge increase in the level of testosterone cannot be accepted to come from any natural factors," said Prof. Christiane Ayotte, director of Montreal's anti-doping laboratory. "If dehydration was the case, then marathon runners would be testing positive all the time. Tennis players would be testing positive all the time. Dehydration is a medical condition that requires hospitalization. It has been invoked in the past, but not one case, to my knowledge, has been successful in this argument.


    Aug. 7, 2006 (Associated Press) Possibly hundreds of reasons defence

    "Speaking about officials from both the international cycling federation and the anti-doping agencies, Landis added, "There are multiple reasons why this could have happened, other than what they're saying happened. They're saying that I added testosterone to my body in some way.
    I'm saying there are possibly hundreds of reasons why this test could be this way ... and it appears as though there is more of an agenda here than just enforcing the rules - if you look at the big picture."
    Landis also gave interviews Monday on all four network morning shows.
    "I don't know exactly what the truth is," Landis said on NBC's "Today" show. "The problem here, though, from the beginning was the fact that the people doing the testing didn't follow their own rules and their own protocols and made this public before I had a chance to figure out what was going on, and I was forced in the press to make comments before I could get educated on this.


    Aug. 8, 2006 (BBC Radio) Evil agenda defence

    Landis told BBC Radio "extraneous circumstances" indicate some "strange things going on with this test. You will see that they clearly broke the rules and their excuse was pathetic. The only explanation I can come up with is that there is some agenda here."


    Aug. 8, 2006 CNN (Re: Jay Leno interview) Something I ingested defence

    'I see you on these shows and I do want to believe you and evidence seems _ I don't know if it's overwhelming _ but it seems pretty conclusive, right?' Leno said.
    Landis said yes, if one goes by the tests, and Leno shot back, `Why should we not go by the tests? Tell me why.''
    Landis responded that there were several possibilities, saying, 'The tests and the people doing the tests would like you to believe that the only possibility is that I essentially took some drugs and that's why the test is that way.'
    He offered still another new theory: 'Now there's also the possibility, and it's an argument that has been used by other people. At this point, I don't know if it's somehow or some way I ingested something that caused the tests to be that way.'
    Landis went on to repeat some possibilities he and his defence team had floated earlier, that there was some type of natural occurrence in his body that caused the positive tests.
    He added, 'And I'm beginning to wonder about this myself after the way the situation's been handled, is that after the (sample) leaves my hands ... after I give them the sample, I don't know where it goes.'


    The real reason:

    Aug. 11, 2006 (Wall Street Journal)

    Q: It has been reported that Mr. Landis's testosterone level was within the normal range, but his epitestosterone was very low. Do low levels of epitestosterone confer any advantage to an athlete?

    A: No, nor do high levels. Epitestosterone doesn't have any known purpose in the body, several doctors told me. Ingemar Bjorkhem, a professor of clinical chemistry at Karolinska University Hospital in Stockholm who has studied testosterone, said epitestosterone's function is "controversial," but added,"Most probably, it's not very important.""It's an accident in metabolism," said Richard Hellman, president-elect of the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists."For each molecule of testosterone made, there is a nonfunctional molecule [of epitestosterone] made." Hence the usual 1-to-1 T/E ratio.

    Production of epitestosterone can be suppressed by adding synthetic testosterone to the body, so a high T/E ratio can be a marker for doping.

    Landis spokesman Michael Henson confirmed to me that the high ratio was the result of very low epitestosterone. The cycling union has been more tight-lipped, and no one has specified the exact hormonal levels. Howard Jacobs, Mr. Landis's lawyer, told me he wouldn't release numbers yet because he hasn't yet received full documentation of the tests from the cycling union."I want to see the documentation of how they calculate the numbers," he said."I don't want to put out numbers that are flat wrong."
     
  7. mitosis

    mitosis New Member

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    His main problem (and to be fair, also part of his defence) is that none of this seems to have shown up in tests before this episode. If your body has the unusual ability to convert cortisone to testosterone it doesn't invent it overnight.

    With regard to bacteria, if they are in his system he would be extremely sick. If they are in his gut any testosterone they produce would be poorly absorbed - as you should well know.

    Good information and all possible - but highly improbable.
     
  8. House

    House Banned

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    You also need to take into account when Floyd had a cortisone shot. He had a few for his hip, but we have never heard when he had them.
     
  9. bobke

    bobke New Member

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    Yes we have.
    He said when he received them in interviews.
    He had two or three over this spring.
    But they are depo-cortisone designed to stay around for a long time.
     
  10. cynic

    cynic New Member

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    As per my post above - cortisone is not an adequate explanation
    "It does not explain why the t/e ratio was elevated once and not every time he was tested (or at least certainly on more than one occasion) since the cortisone treatment and other medications are part of an ongoing treatment.
    Also consider that the t/e positive was not barely out of range, 11-1 vs 4-1.

    The strongest indictment in my opinion, though, is the fact that the 11-1 is a result of testosterone within normal range coupled with an abnormally low epitestosterone level. This means that Floyd's body had suppressed production of epitestosterone. Why?
    May I suggest the answer is doping.
    A lengthy course of synthetic testosterone treatment will suppress the natural production of both testosterone and epitestosterone. This will leave the doper with a low epitestosterone level and a testosterone level that is proportional to the dosage of synthetic testosterone taken in.
    This will result in positive doping teats for elevated t/e in precisely the way that Landis was caught, unless the t/e is brought into balance with the appropriate dosage of epitestosterone.
    (That is why the infamous BALCO cream was a careful mix of both testosterone and epitestosterone)
    My conclusion is that Landis missed taking the appropriate dosage of epitestosterone as a masking agent prior to the start of Stage 17.

    Also, It is clear that Landis is not confident in using meds as a defence, as he appears to be focusing on the integrity of the anti-doping process."
     
  11. patch70

    patch70 New Member

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    Well that screws that as an explanation for Floyd then given all his other tests were okay.

    Also - this explanation has about as much credibility as Tyler's chimerism. It just ain't going to happen.
     
  12. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

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    First off ,don't shoot the messenger I am just quoting what someone told me.
    I have heard that they may have a difficult time banning Landis due to he fact that the testerone test were not always accurate.
    This comes from someone that should know.
    Maybe this has been mentioned before but I haven't heard it from someone in the business until now.
    It should be interesting to see what happens.
     
  13. cyclingheroes

    cyclingheroes New Member

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    I thought well finally i am alowed to shoot somebody (for some reason that's forbidden in most countries..) but no... ;)

    The UCI is in big trouble aren't they... More troubling is that the whole sport is in trouble...:confused:
     
  14. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

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    I believe it will be hell of a mess in the looooong months to come and yes the sport is in trouble.Sponsors may be become endangered species.
    As far as shooting someone I propose that permits be issued if you can argue a good case as to why you be allowed to discharge a large caliber weapon into the offending party. :D
     
  15. stevebaby

    stevebaby New Member

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    Well,the head would look nice hanging above the fireplace.
    :D
     
  16. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

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    It depends on who's head.
     
  17. stilesiii

    stilesiii New Member

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    I do not know a lot about PED testing, but I do know about drug testing for narcotics. There are so many ways to dilute, mask, adulterate samples to hide drugs we will never definitively know the "truth" when we are relying solely on the test results.

    Knowing that, look at the other circumstantial evidence and answer these questions.

    Where was Landis in the Pyrenees? He did not show the potential of Stage 17.

    Why did he willingly give up the jersey? Was it to avoid mandatory testing of stage winners?

    What happen on Stage 16? Rasmussen destroys field, Landis' collapse was monumental. I mean monumental. Do you remember your thoughts when you saw his efforts, pitiful, it looked like the chain came off?

    Stage 17. What was your thoughts when he broke away after 12k? Impossible, that was my thought.

    Now that you know he tested positive, it sure helps explain the events. I don't know if Landis cheated, but I can't give him the benefit of the doubt.:(
     
  18. snyper0311

    snyper0311 New Member

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    For those of us who remember Flyer, I'll be first in line to tell him that he was TOTALLY correct in his statemensts that ALL pro riders use something to help them out.

    After the start of this tour, I was totally disgusted with the UCI and more importantly, the riders for destroying what was shaping up to be a great tour. I couldn't believe that Basso and JU were getting the boot.

    All I know now, after the Landis bust, is that I don't care to follow the pro tour. I lost all faith in the professional riders and the corporate sponsors that turn their heads for a profit. Screw the whole group, any pro rider is a CHEAT!
     
  19. whiteboytrash

    whiteboytrash New Member

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    Nice try but when Landis collapsed he was wearing yellow so whether he finished 2 hours behind or won by 2 hours he was still going to be tested.... although I'll buy into the earlier stages in the Pyrenees... he really just didn't want to win a stage...... in fact he tried his hardest not to win.... he'd put in an attack then stop..... strange....

     
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