Landis Innocent! on CNN and Lance agrees!!!

[schwagger]

I would disagree that either link is worth reading.

A 1997 Testosterone study and a 2005 article posted on the 1999 Armstrong dope tests.

The 1997 testosterone report, if clinically validated, would have been incorporated throughout all accredited labs worldwide and would have been part of clinical criteria for establishing testosterone measurement in all subsequent 1997 testosterone clinical tests.

In other words these factors would have been taken in to account with the recent tests on all samples.

As for the Armstrong article : hogwash.

Buddy, several of these articles are journal approved, are you now questioning the testing criteria needed to obtain journal creditation?

 

[bobke]

from new york news:

However, experts on performance-enhancing drugs say that a one-time testosterone boost would not have an impact on an athlete's results. Dr. Charles Yesalis, a retired professor at Penn State University and a renowned expert in the field of performance-enhancing drugs, long has maintained that "you cannot win the Tour de France without drugs," but also said that Landis' assertions should not be dismissed.


"Something smells here," Yesalis said. "When I saw the drug (he tested positive for), it absolutely makes zero sense. Using testosterone in the middle of a race would have absolutely no effect. It's a training drug. It's not a competition drug. I think anybody who rushes to judgment on this is perhaps being foolish."

 

[karlotta]

Of all the info in my post, you attack the first line of it,how many times has Chatenay-Malabry laboratory considered Lance positive and how many times has it stuck?take some time to READ the other stuff,it's not full of glossy pictures and small words so take your time but it is very interesting cas t doubt on the testing process and numbers.

Your very introduction to the litany of resources highlighted the French Labs. Then all you could report about the French labs was the regurgitation of the Vrijman report and the press coverage of the charges made in Sept 2005 (in the height of the publicity of the Armstrong Lie story). I'm focused on your smear campaign against the French lab. The test will or will not speak for itself. Why not read WADA's own report analysing the TDF 2003 anti-doping efforts. You'll find much more information in there regarding both the tests and the laboratory.

http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/tour_de_france_2003_en.pdf

 

[DV1976]

from new york news:

However, experts on performance-enhancing drugs say that a one-time testosterone boost would not have an impact on an athlete's results. Dr. Charles Yesalis, a retired professor at Penn State University and a renowned expert in the field of performance-enhancing drugs, long has maintained that "you cannot win the Tour de France without drugs," but also said that Landis' assertions should not be dismissed.


"Something smells here," Yesalis said. "When I saw the drug (he tested positive for), it absolutely makes zero sense. Using testosterone in the middle of a race would have absolutely no effect. It's a training drug. It's not a competition drug. I think anybody who rushes to judgment on this is perhaps being foolish."

Οf course this doesn't mean that he didn't dope. At this point it's Landis' responsibility to come up with a plausible explanation about the results. And more than plausible... There have been other cases like Landis' and WADA didn't give a damn about theories like that. A relatively recent example was a Greek weightlifter, Sambanis, who was tested (like Landis) positive for test after winning bronze in the 2004 Olympics. Like Landis he claimed that it would have been stupid to take test before the competition (which was true) and even more strange while his first sample showed a ratio of 8:1 his B Sample was 12:1 which in all probability meant that he had taken test AFTER the competition. The guy was crying on Greek TV and swearing on his children's lives that he didn't take it (far more convincing than a Larry King interview believe me) and WADA didn't give a damn and banned him. And so did CAS... So there is precedent. If btw Landis' B sample shows similar results and IF Landis is exonerated then (to me) this would be another example of double standards. Landis will get away with it simply because he is an American.
BTW the stupidity meter of this forum has broken into new grounds in the past 3 or so days. Here we have a guy that cracks spectacularly one day and the next he wins in the most extraordinary fashion, then he gets caught red handed (naturally) and some posters are looking for excuses varying from a French conspiracy to being drunk in order to explain the obvious... After the Morzine stage I was really curious to find out how on earth he managed to recover. I still am... I am very curious to find out which drug he used and how.

 

[jhuskey]

A pretty fair summary WBT.

As CH points out the current crises facing the sport is massive now.

Each grubby case is eroding the last remaining credibility of this sport.
This is the more important issue.
Landis/Armstrong/Virenque etc : the personalities involved are now secondary
in my opinion.


Landis can proclaim that he's innocent but the damage that he (and all the other cheats) have caused is now beginning to register.

I'm told that Phonak want out of the sport NOW.
I am also told that I-Shares are trying to extricate themselves from their commitment to the cycling. What of the team?

Bad enough a rider putting his career in the **** - now you have the real likelihood of 20-30 people losing their jobs too.
What other reputable company will want to have their brand associated with a grubby tainted cheating industry like cycling?

I am uneasy about another aspect.
As well as taking more direct action in the doping war, I would like to see the UCI looking at team sponsorship.
Specifically, the corporate structure of team ownership.
Astana springs to mind - I have a real concern there :

Phonak wanted out a long a time ago Lim.If you remember we discussed how fed up the owner was with the hassles of cycle racing.
He gave it a good shot because he loves the sport.

 

[jhuskey]

Neat posting Lim; Yes Larry is as hard as they come when it comes to investigative journalism ! LOL !

To be honest I think our American posters are going through a process of detachment. Knowing that Landis is actually a cheat takes time to digest. A little like when you find out your girlfriend has been cheating on you. At first there is shock, then you try and find ways to say it’s not true. In the end you know the truth and you have to move on. Same with Landis, the American posters are kicking and screaming like a jilted lover but soon enough they will come around and realise that you can't deny the truth and the truth of an exact science.

Worst still is that the American cycling dream of Armstrong, Hamilton, Landis and Hincapie is now covered in deceit and lies. Were they really that good or just good at cheating ?

It's time for you to start another thread. "Pro Cycling in Disarray".

 

[Serafino]

Lim,

I'm not American, but I must say, based on the posts I've read so far, I'm coming to a conclusion that you have a pathological anti-American cyclist bias.

To hear you speak, every American cyclist is a doper. How convenient an opinion.

It sickens me to read some of the rabid condemnations before due process. If anything, Europe has no equal (and I'm a European) when it comes to a long and sordid tradition in encouraging doping in Cycling.

You couldn't be more certain of your opinions if you administered the dope yourself. Take a step back and stop destroying others reputations before due process comes to one conclusion or another.

 

[whiteboytrash]

The test doesn’t test for foolishness... the choice that Landis took testosterone was his own and probably part of a concoction of drugs not a drug for a single use. All these posts have a similar thread to them... I really don't care if Landis is positive or not but its time you guys let go and realise that he is a cheat just as smelly as Richard Virenque (who never tested positive).

Facts are facts, American or not American, Landis took testosterone.

One might remember that Roberto Heres made all the same claims that Landis is making now. Faulty lab, handling procedures, produced EPO naturally. Blah blah blah blah.

Hamilton the same.

We now know about those two don’t we.

Don’t be fooled by the fact that Landis is a nice guy, he is, but that doesn’t stop you from being a cheat.

from new york news:

However, experts on performance-enhancing drugs say that a one-time testosterone boost would not have an impact on an athlete's results. Dr. Charles Yesalis, a retired professor at Penn State University and a renowned expert in the field of performance-enhancing drugs, long has maintained that "you cannot win the Tour de France without drugs," but also said that Landis' assertions should not be dismissed.


"Something smells here," Yesalis said. "When I saw the drug (he tested positive for), it absolutely makes zero sense. Using testosterone in the middle of a race would have absolutely no effect. It's a training drug. It's not a competition drug. I think anybody who rushes to judgment on this is perhaps being foolish."

 

[Felt_Rider]

from new york news:

However, experts on performance-enhancing drugs say that a one-time testosterone boost would not have an impact on an athlete's results. Dr. Charles Yesalis, a retired professor at Penn State University and a renowned expert in the field of performance-enhancing drugs, long has maintained that "you cannot win the Tour de France without drugs," but also said that Landis' assertions should not be dismissed.


"Something smells here," Yesalis said. "When I saw the drug (he tested positive for), it absolutely makes zero sense. Using testosterone in the middle of a race would have absolutely no effect. It's a training drug. It's not a competition drug. I think anybody who rushes to judgment on this is perhaps being foolish."

This is what I personally find baffling and I completely agree.
I have personally used PED's and chiefly testosterone during off season cycles for more than 10 years for competition in my former days, administered anabolics & androgenics to others, anti-estrogens and other PED's. I have studied and researched this issue as much as I can and though I would not call myself a guru on the subject I have been a go to person locally and abroad on the subject back in the day. I am not proud to reveal these things and now days I try to help those see the dangers concerning use.

I say all that putting myself out on a limb to get flamed here, but I cannot just sit back and not say anything because a lot of what I read is ridiculous.

The association of raised testosterone encouraging enhanced endurance performance is just nuts and to think the suggestion of a one shot dose could have excelled Landis like that in stage 17 is even more nuts. Its just the wrong drug (anabolic or androgenic) for performance enhancement. It would have to be a suggestion of a one shot dose because no other samples were abnormal.

When I have used testosterone it would take at least a week before I could start feeling the results and at least 4 to 6 weeks before I was actually hitting the pinnacle of the cycle for results. Most cycles would run a minimum of 12 weeks and would run through a period of cycling up and then tapering off.

The new transdermal patches are even much less effective than an injection because it is not that easy to pass chemicals through the epidermis. So transdermal patches only provide a very low steady dose and are normally attached to inner arm, shoulder, inner thigh, but adding to some of the other areas is nonsense. The dose would be so low that it may only provide a 1 to 2% advantage and would not make anyone superhuman.

To me there is something funky about this situation either in the Landis camp or in the organization camp, but the one thing is sure it should have been kept private until both samples were tested and then reveal to the media.

I am not saying that Landis is clean, but the use of testosterone or something that would elevate testosterone during an event doesn't make sense to me in an endurance sport. It would seem like EPO would be a better choice and it is much harder to detect in testing as far as I know.

 

[Ullefan]

The test doesn’t test for foolishness... the choice that Landis took testosterone was his own and probably part of a concoction of drugs not a drug for a single use. All these posts have a similar thread to them... I really don't care if Landis is positive or not but its time you guys let go and realise that he is a cheat just as smelly as Richard Virenque (who never tested positive).

Facts are facts, American or not American, Landis took testosterone.

One might remember that Roberto Heres made all the same claims that Landis is making now. Faulty lab, handling procedures, produced EPO naturally. Blah blah blah blah.

Hamilton the same.

We now know about those two don’t we.

Don’t be fooled by the fact that Landis is a nice guy, he is, but that doesn’t stop you from being a cheat.

Agreed

 

[whiteboytrash]

Neat post. Yes Landis has one further issue to address. Not only did he just test positive but he tested positive after the greatest comeback since, since, since... well I can't remember ! It was a phenomenal ride. The two go hand in hand its going to be hard to prove that on that day when he time trialed on his own for 130Km and was still taking time out of seasoned mountain climbers who had been sitting in a draft all day on the final climb that he didn't dope.

His whole persona that day was completely different. For 2 weeks in the Tour Landis refused to take the lead, didn't want a stage win, showed little emotion and then on one day after losing 10 minutes on the day previous he comes out and punches the air, threatens to punch photographers and takes no prisoners. Are we not all a little suspicious ? and then to test positive….. its all very fishy is it not ?

We are ready to post various articles which support that the test is not viable but your own eyes don't lie and remember how a lot of you thought Hamilton was innocent then we read the transcript of his appeal and it read like a comedy sketch.

Οf course this doesn't mean that he didn't dope. At this point it's Landis' responsibility to come up with a plausible explanation about the results. And more than plausible... There have been other cases like Landis' and WADA didn't give a damn about theories like that. A relatively recent example was a Greek weightlifter, Sambanis, who was tested (like Landis) positive for test after winning bronze in the 2004 Olympics. Like Landis he claimed that it would have been stupid to take test before the competition (which was true) and even more strange while his first sample showed a ratio of 8:1 his B Sample was 12:1 which in all probability meant that he had taken test AFTER the competition. The guy was crying on Greek TV and swearing on his children's lives that he didn't take it (far more convincing than a Larry King interview believe me) and WADA didn't give a damn and banned him. And so did CAS... So there is precedent. If btw Landis' B sample shows similar results and IF Landis is exonerated then (to me) this would be another example of double standards. Landis will get away with it simply because he is an American.
BTW the stupidity meter of this forum has broken into new grounds in the past 3 or so days. Here we have a guy that cracks spectacularly one day and the next he wins in the most extraordinary fashion, then he gets caught red handed (naturally) and some posters are looking for excuses varying from a French conspiracy to being drunk in order to explain the obvious... After the Morzine stage I was really curious to find out how on earth he managed to recover. I still am... I am very curious to find out which drug he used and how.

 

[limerickman]

Buddy, several of these articles are journal approved, are you now questioning the testing criteria needed to obtain journal creditation?

What I am suggesting is that if the conclusions derived in the 1997 paper that you posted have been clinically validated, then those conclusions would be part of the ongoing testosterone clinical testing procedures for all subssequent
tests from 1997.

 

[Ullefan]

This is what I personally find baffling and I completely agree.
I have personally used PED's and chiefly testosterone during off season cycles for more than 10 years for competition in my former days, administered anabolics & androgenics to others, anti-estrogens and other PED's. I have studied and researched this issue as much as I can and though I would not call myself a guru on the subject I have been a go to person locally and abroad on the subject back in the day. I am not proud to reveal these things and now days I try to help those see the dangers concerning use.

I say all that putting myself out on a limb to get flamed here, but I cannot just sit back and not say anything because a lot of what I read is ridiculous.

The association of raised testosterone encouraging enhanced endurance performance is just nuts and to think the suggestion of a one shot dose could have excelled Landis like that in stage 17 is even more nuts. Its just the wrong drug (anabolic or androgenic) for performance enhancement. It would have to be a suggestion of a one shot dose because no other samples were abnormal.

When I have used testosterone it would take at least a week before I could start feeling the results and at least 4 to 6 weeks before I was actually hitting the pinnacle of the cycle for results. Most cycles would run a minimum of 12 weeks and would run through a period of cycling up and then tapering off.

The new transdermal patches are even much less effective than an injection because it is not that easy to pass chemicals through the epidermis. So transdermal patches only provide a very low steady dose and are normally attached to inner arm, shoulder, inner thigh, but adding to some of the other areas is nonsense. The dose would be so low that it may only provide a 1 to 2% advantage and would not make anyone superhuman.

To me there is something funky about this situation either in the Landis camp or in the organization camp, but the one thing is sure it should have been kept private until both samples were tested and then reveal to the media.

I am not saying that Landis is clean, but the use of testosterone or something that would elevate testosterone during an event doesn't make sense to me in an endurance sport. It would seem like EPO would be a better choice and it is much harder to detect in testing as far as I know.

Fact: Testosterone (if B-sample is conclusively positive) was found in his sample, the day of his ride stage 17.

What that doesn't tell us is potentially the other drugs that were used but were undetectable in the samples.

 

[schwagger]

The test doesn’t test for foolishness... the choice that Landis took testosterone was his own and probably part of a concoction of drugs not a drug for a single use. All these posts have a similar thread to them... I really don't care if Landis is positive or not but its time you guys let go and realise that he is a cheat just as smelly as Richard Virenque (who never tested positive).

Facts are facts, American or not American, Landis took testosterone.

One might remember that Roberto Heres made all the same claims that Landis is making now. Faulty lab, handling procedures, produced EPO naturally. Blah blah blah blah.

Hamilton the same.

We now know about those two don’t we.

Don’t be fooled by the fact that Landis is a nice guy, he is, but that doesn’t stop you from being a cheat.

MODERATED .....................................because heras and hamilton gave similar responses therefore Landis is guilty as well. let's see who else can we stereotype. I recall seeing a couple brothers on tv stealing t.v.'s and I recently saw one with a t.v in a parking lot by bestbuy, I bet he stole it, don't care if he has an explanation, the f*&cker stole it! I think my testosterone level is up now as well, I really feel like kickin' someone's ass right now. Should have expected this much from a bunch of roadies, back to MTBR for me!

 

[whiteboytrash]

Fact: Testosterone (if B-sample is conclusively positive) was found in his sample, the day of his ride stage 17.

What that doesn't tell us is potentially the other drugs that were used but were undetectable in the samples.

Neat post. Agreed. Testosterone is used in combination with a raft of other drugs as we now know from the Fuentes files.

 

[limerickman]

Lim,

I'm not American, but I must say, based on the posts I've read so far, I'm coming to a conclusion that you have a pathological anti-American cyclist bias.

To hear you speak, every American cyclist is a doper. How convenient an opinion.

It sickens me to read some of the rabid condemnations before due process. If anything, Europe has no equal (and I'm a European) when it comes to a long and sordid tradition in encouraging doping in Cycling.

You couldn't be more certain of your opinions if you administered the dope yourself. Take a step back and stop destroying others reputations before due process comes to one conclusion or another.

I never said every American rider is a doper.
You need to read my posts more carefully.

This isn't a EU V USA debate (although some here insist on trying to trying to apply their own country's lax doping standards, on to French labs).

 

[whiteboytrash]

You stupid f*&k, because heras and hamilton gave similar responses therefore Landis is guilty as well. let's see who else can we stereotype. I recall seeing a couple brothers on tv stealing t.v.'s and I recently saw one with a t.v in a parking lot by bestbuy, I bet he stole it, don't care if he has an explanation, the f*&cker stole it! I think my testosterone level is up now as well, I really feel like kickin' someone's ass right now. Should have expected this much from a bunch of roadies, back to MTBR for me!

Thank-you. Your anger has proved my point....

To be honest I think our American posters are going through a process of detachment. Knowing that Landis is actually a cheat takes time to digest. A little like when you find out your girlfriend has been cheating on you. At first there is shock, then you try and find ways to say it’s not true. In the end you know the truth and you have to move on. Same with Landis, the American posters are kicking and screaming like a jilted lover but soon enough they will come around and realise that you can't deny the truth and the truth of an exact science.

Worst still is that the American cycling dream of Armstrong, Hamilton, Landis and Hincapie is now covered in deceit and lies. Were they really that good or just good at cheating ?

 

[limerickman]

This is what I personally find baffling and I completely agree.
I have personally used PED's and chiefly testosterone during off season cycles for more than 10 years for competition in my former days, administered anabolics & androgenics to others, anti-estrogens and other PED's. I have studied and researched this issue as much as I can and though I would not call myself a guru on the subject I have been a go to person locally and abroad on the subject back in the day. I am not proud to reveal these things and now days I try to help those see the dangers concerning use.

I say all that putting myself out on a limb to get flamed here, but I cannot just sit back and not say anything because a lot of what I read is ridiculous.

The association of raised testosterone encouraging enhanced endurance performance is just nuts and to think the suggestion of a one shot dose could have excelled Landis like that in stage 17 is even more nuts. Its just the wrong drug (anabolic or androgenic) for performance enhancement. It would have to be a suggestion of a one shot dose because no other samples were abnormal.

When I have used testosterone it would take at least a week before I could start feeling the results and at least 4 to 6 weeks before I was actually hitting the pinnacle of the cycle for results. Most cycles would run a minimum of 12 weeks and would run through a period of cycling up and then tapering off.

The new transdermal patches are even much less effective than an injection because it is not that easy to pass chemicals through the epidermis. So transdermal patches only provide a very low steady dose and are normally attached to inner arm, shoulder, inner thigh, but adding to some of the other areas is nonsense. The dose would be so low that it may only provide a 1 to 2% advantage and would not make anyone superhuman.

To me there is something funky about this situation either in the Landis camp or in the organization camp, but the one thing is sure it should have been kept private until both samples were tested and then reveal to the media.

I am not saying that Landis is clean, but the use of testosterone or something that would elevate testosterone during an event doesn't make sense to me in an endurance sport. It would seem like EPO would be a better choice and it is much harder to detect in testing as far as I know.

Maybe he assumed that with Puerto in full swing, that he could get through without being caught?

 

[Markz]

So the tell tale signs of doping is punching the air and having a go at photographers? Huh. That is as stupid as Tyler's twin.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Fact: Testosterone (if B-sample is conclusively positive) was found in his sample, the day of his ride stage 17.

What that doesn't tell us is potentially the other drugs that were used but were undetectable in the samples.

That is the point I am trying to make and correct some of the technical aspects of the discussion. To correct the link between testosterone and his amazing recovery and ride.

There may have been something else that he used and the testosterone was the marker that was picked up on the tests, but testosterone was not responsible for recovery or his ride. The only thing the testosterone may have been responsible for was him getting caught if sample B is positive.

I am by no means sticking up for Landis as I am not really interested in cycling as a sport and I am not a fan of any team or professional rider. I am just looking at the technical side of this discussion.