Landis Innocent! on CNN and Lance agrees!!!
- Thread starter bobke
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That's what happens when you read abstracts... You don't know what they found and you don't know what the 90% means... For example here is what cyclingnews writes:DMF said:
"
Two other factors have been shown to elevate T:E levels: alcohol and intense effort. A 1988 study [3] found that ingestion of alcohol could increase the T:E ratio, though the effect is relatively small even for a large amount of alcohol. The subjects ingested between 110-160 g of ethanol (2 g/kg bodyweight), and researchers found that it "increased the ratio between testosterone and epitestosterone in urine from 1.14 +/- 0.07 to 1.52 +/- 0.09 in four healthy male volunteers. The increase ranged from 30% to 90% in the different subjects studied (mean 41%)."
Landis was quoted at the time as saying that he'd only had one beer and a small amount of Jack Daniels later on. Even a pint of normal strength beer generally doesn't contain more than 20 g of alcohol, while a shot of whiskey contains about 10 g - a much lower level than was studied by the Swedish researchers. "...
Yep. There was a post on bikeforums that excerpted the relevant passage ("from 30% to more than 200%") and linked the paper, but koffee has reorganized the threads and I can't find it. Might have been the 2000 study at Utrecht as I recall it being pretty recent. (I thought it was 2003, so it might be another one entirely.)DV1976 said:
Here is what the WSJ stated:
That's the 1988 study.
Also from the WSJ article:
The beers were probably in 1/2 l glasses. Beer in the region can easily get up to 7% alcohol. In other words, Floyd got hammered.
whiteboytrash said:Your right... the race "zurich" is huge ! What is it ? Trofeo Laigueglia ? Never heard of it ! World Champion 93... nice win where 78% of the field pulled out because of the weather and the new white lines on the road which caused the riders to slip... Tour de Pont ? Isn't that race in the US where Europeans wouldn't even embarrass themselves by turning up... (almost as big as Kmart West Virginia Classic ! LOL !) what else you got down there ? Oh the stage that was gifted to Armstrong in the Tour because of Casartelli‘s death and because he was an hour down on GC.... Jezus these results are telling ! LOL !
Indurain punctured in the last 1,000 metres.
Not taking from - LA he won WC's in 1993.
But Indurain punctured.
I've finally reached the breaking point. I was looking forward to the Vuelta, now I don't care. We almost booked a trip to see the Tour of Britain, I'm glad that we decided not to go. I decided to stop reading Velo News, cyclingnew.com, and assorted net sites and forums for the forseeable future. It sounds cheesy, but I'm really heartsick over all the revelations this year. It's too sad and I give up.
Originally Posted by Houseburton3eleven said:
Whitetrash- Thanks for proving you know nothing about cycling. I mean hey "Zurich" was only a round of the UCI World Cup and won by people like Bettini, Museeuw, Fondriest, Mottet, Bauer, Rooks, Moser, De Vlaemink(sp). Trofeo Laigueglia is a February race with such winners as Museeuw, Sorenson, VDB, Bartoli, Merckx, Maertens. I can understand how someone who talks like they are an expert would not know such races. *sarcasm*
BroDeal- Having read your posts I know it doesn't matter, but I prefer proof over "so and so said this happened."
No mention of the Tour du Pont ? You have to be honest have you ever heard of Trofeo Laigueglia until you looked it up on the internet ? No of course you haven't... and by the mere fact the race is held in February it’s hardly a "full on" classics race with a strong field. (Have you ever been in Italy in February ? Its snowing !) Yes some big names have won it but its a early season warm up race ! So don't go swinging the race name around as if its the biggest race on the calendar because its not... in 233,487 posts no one has ever mentioned this race before in relation to Armstrong.... you're pissing in the wind !
...as for "Zurich" I've still never heard of it... did you mean The Championship of Zurich ? Armstrong has never won this race (Interesting enough Bettini, Museeuw, Fondriest, Mottet, Bauer, Rooks, Moser, De Vlaemink like you mentioned have !).... christ do you guys actually know anything or just use the Internet for cycling knowledge pre-1999 ? LOL !
Now who is it who really knows "nothing" about cyclig ?
DMF said:
Funny WSJ is the only ones reporting this. Has anyone seen Landis say this? In the interview after he won stage 17 he said he had one beer. Mudding the waters...
I'm sorry, but what did you expect Lance to say? That he fully expected Landis to test positive one day because the doctors on the DSC team are far better and he and Floyd used to dope together in January?bobke said:
Lance himself has been on Larry King before saying that he was innocent and yet there has been a lot of talk of Lance taking illegal doping products. Do you still believe Lance just because he's a good liar?
East German Weight lifting teams with a T/E ratio over 100? What do you expect? East Germans were crazy dopers! I wouldn't expect Landis to dope himself upto a 100:1 T/E! He knows the limits...
Saying that testosteron is not performance enhancing in cycling is simply wrong. It builds up muscles and although some doctors have said it's not proven to work on the short term other doctors have said that it does work very well for recovery.
Also that Landis wasn't positive in other tests and that he always has a T/E ratio of above 1:1 doesn't mean that he didn't always dope himself.
Someone on another board suggested that he probably injects himself with testosteron every day or every other day for a good recovery. He suggested that the testosteron of a previous injection must have stayed in his blood and therefore it made the test positive. I suggest that this might be either because of the alcohol or the enormous performance on the day.
I assume you don't do studies for a living...DMF said:
1) The abstract you provided says that they noticed an increase in the range of 30-90%. Even if Landis is the highest extreme and the alcohol he consumed elevated his T/E ratio by 90% then his starting ratio should have been around 6:1 (in order to get to 11:1). This is still way above the limit.
2) Not mentioning the fact that he could very well be on the other extreme (that of the 30%) if we take what they reported to be their mean value (of 41%) then his starting point is about 8:1. Again indicating doping.
3) There are a few problems with the study itselft.
a) They used 4 subjects a number that is very small.
b) The range of 30% to 90% for 4 subjects is inconclusive to say the least.
c) If their least value is indeed 30% their highest 90 and their mean 41% then this is mathematically impossible (for 4 subjects). At least that is what the abstract says. I need to read the whole paper to see how they calculated it.
4) Even if the beer he drunk was 7% still it doesn't reach the 2g/kg. Of course the beer might have been 4.5 or even 3%. It could even have been non-alcoholic for all you know.
5) The 200% value is bollocks.
a) No references
b) If alcohol elevated testo so much all **** stars would film plastered...
6) Other than that what you suggest is ridiculous. What you are saying is that he got plastered the night after the biggest bonk of his life and he woke up the next day (no hangover) to ride the best stage of his life. If you mean that he got drunk the night before the bonk there is no way that his alcohol-induced T/E ratio would have remained that high.
In other words either
You don't understand what you are reading and you are trying desperately to prove to yourself that Landis is innocent.
or
You have a wicked sense of humour and you are winding people up writing rubbish on purpose.
whiteboytrash said:
I am sure Lim will delete this, no matter what I say, but I will respond anyway.
Do you want me to name people who raced in those DuPont races? Guys like Ekimov, Nerdello, Peron, Alcala, Yates, Bauer, Anderson, Lemond, Rominger, Hampsten. Yup another race with no good Euros. About Laigueglia, yes I have heard of it before...because I follow more then just the "full on classics" and Grand Tours...unlike you. It's interesting that after using the quote "needed to compete with the Euros" now you have to have "full on classics." I guess when you get burned it's easier to change tacts. You said I proved it wrong. Just deal with it.
Did I say Armstrong won? Nope, I said 2nd...which is certainly competing with the Euros. Nice comment about pre 1999 and pretending to not know what "Zurich" is. Once again anything to not admit being wrong. Nice try.
No recantation, just Limerick doing his usual biased job of moderating anything that doesn't agree with him. As you will see when he deletes this one as well. He has deleted at least five of my posts with no real reason in this thread.Bro Deal said:
By the way didn't Walsh insist he did not pay his sources and then it came out that he did?
Entirely possible. The one thing I would like to know is of their are any masking agents for testosterone that are any good these days. (honest question). From everything I have read it sounds like Landis would gain nothing unless he had been doing it for weeks and that would be very difficult to hide. The thing that does bother me is the info that has come out. Suddenly multiple beers, then whiskey, a thyroid problem. He could have been trying to play down the alcohol he drank at the time he won stage 17 (so he would not look bad, like some drunk) and the thyroid could have been hidden like the hip, but the timing bothers me.musette said:
