Landis Innocent! on CNN and Lance agrees!!!



House said:
Entirely possible. The one thing I would like to know is of their are any masking agents for testosterone that are any good these days. (honest question). From everything I have read it sounds like Landis would gain nothing unless he had been doing it for weeks and that would be very difficult to hide. The thing that does bother me is the info that has come out. Suddenly multiple beers, then whiskey, a thyroid problem. He could have been trying to play down the alcohol he drank at the time he won stage 17 (so he would not look bad, like some drunk) and the thyroid could have been hidden like the hip, but the timing bothers me.

Alcohol is a masking agent : whiskey in particular is a masking agent and has been used in cases before where an athlete tried to cover up PED's.

But the consumption of alcohol after having been in a terrible state on stage 16 beggars belief.
After stage 16, his system would have been dehyrdated - he was sweating profusely at the finish line at 16.

His system would have been under extreme pressure trying to recover - even a day later.
Why then would Landis consume a product (alcohol) which dehydrates his syetm further.
Bizzare.
 
House said:
Do you want me to name people who raced in those DuPont races? Guys like Ekimov, Nerdello, Peron, Alcala, Yates, Bauer, Anderson, Lemond, Rominger, Hampsten. Yup another race with no good Euros.
Huh? Ekiimov, Peron, Alcala, Yates, Bauer, Anderson, and Hampsten were all on the same team. Maybe Nerdello was too, I can't recall who he was at the moment. They were not competing against each other. They were doing an exhibition for their U.S. based sponsor.

Bobby Julich as an amateur took seventh or eight place one year. The proof is in the final G.C. and it does not prove what you are asserting. The Tour Dupont/de Trump was a small U.S. stage race that a few euro pros showed up for as an easy way to do Spring training.
 
Bro Deal said:
Huh? Ekiimov, Peron, Alcala, Yates, Bauer, Anderson, and Hampsten were all on the same team. Maybe Nerdello was too, I can't recall who he was at the moment. They were not competing against each other. They were doing an exhibition for their U.S. based sponsor.

Bobby Julich as an amateur took seventh or eight place one year. The proof is in the final G.C. and it does not prove what you are asserting. The Tour Dupont/de Trump was a small U.S. stage race that a few euro pros showed up for as an easy way to do Spring training.

Yep, Sam Abt's book "Pedalling for Glory" about the 1996 season states that Rominger was at the DuPont to do some easy miles, and to look at some of his investments in the USA.

It would be natural for Peron, Alcala Bauer etc to be at the DuPont as they were Motorola riders : Motorola being a US company and DuPont being a US race.
 
limerickman said:
Yep, Sam Abt's book "Pedalling for Glory" about the 1996 season states that Rominger was at the DuPont to do some easy miles, and to look at some of his investments in the USA.

It would be natural for Peron, Alcala Bauer etc to be at the DuPont as they were Motorola riders : Motorola being a US company and DuPont being a US race.
...you forgot to mention that Donald Trump's name is synonymous in US cycling. Armstrong said he would never of won 7 Tours without the power of Donald behind him. Many European riders think the same of Donald and wish the race was still going so they could add the Tour de Trump/DuPont to the list of Palmares. I rest my case ! LOL !

Mind you Raul Alcalca was lucky not to be killed in the 93 WC's.... he toppled over the road guard rail onto a train track and a passing train had only past 20 seconds earlier..... Raul ended up riding for PDM and got caught up in some hideous drug use... he's completely farked now... can't even spell his own name... sad really....

If anyone has a chance read the 7-Eleven story in CycleSport magazine... great reading...
 
Brodeal- the comment was that he could not compete with the Euros, I have shown all kinds of proof that he was. You and whitetrash and say all you want but the proof is out there.

Limerick- Moderated
 
House said:
Brodeal- the comment was that he could not compete with the Euros, I have shown all kinds of proof that he was. You and whitetrash and say all you want but the proof is out there.

Limerick- Moderated.

House : final warning.

I will not tolerate abusive messages from you any further - are you clear?
 
All I have asked for is proof of what you claim I have done. WHy is this such an issue for you that you have to delete it so many times?
 
DV1976 said:
I assume you don't do studies for a living...
1) .. 4)
Was it not you who said not to judge a study by the abstract? The abstract you analyse was for an early, very low-sample study that suggested a correlation. Later studies have (apparently) further demonstrated the correlation and provided a much more meaningful quantification of the effect.

Yet while denigrating the 1988 study as non-representative you use its numbers to leverage a proof. One presumes that you don't do studies for a living. :rolleyes:

5) The 200% value is bollocks.
You have no basis to make that judgement. a) No references... ;)
a) No references
You know this how? not having seen the text of the studies? I reported two credible sources that, while not primary source, have access to primary sources. (I've made a couple requests for the primary source. When I find I'll post it.)

b) If alcohol elevated testo so much all **** stars would film plastered...
Cute, but shows a real level of ignorance, possibly of arithmetic. The studies do not say that alcohol causes elevated testosterone. They say it can cause an artificially high T/E ratio. It is not necessary to increase T to increase T/E.

6) Other than that what you suggest is ridiculous. What you are saying is that he got plastered the night after the biggest bonk of his life and he woke up the next day (no hangover) to ride the best stage of his life.
Stranger things have happened. A famous pitcher in ML baseball - so hung over he could barely walk - pitched a no-hitter, and another threw a perfect game while tripping on LSD. Intuition is not always correct, and just saying something is impossible does not make it impossible.

I might also add that you're assuming that Floyd bonked, as in glycogen depletion. Robbie Ventura said the next morning that Floyd cracked largely because of heat exhaustion augmented (or possibly caused by) dehydration.

If you mean that he got drunk the night before the bonk ...
Guess you didn't read the article.

Sorry to interrupt your speculation with facts. :p
 
limerickman said:
His system would have been under extreme pressure trying to recover - even a day later.
Why then would Landis consume a product (alcohol) which dehydrates his syetm further.
Bizzare.
I believe that dehydration was his main problem. But dehydration is easy to counteract. Just add water. ;)

The drinking is hardly bizarre when one considers the emotional realm. Or have you never called upon a wee dram when distressed?
 
DMF said:
I believe that dehydration was his main problem. But dehydration is easy to counteract. Just add water. ;)

The drinking is hardly bizarre when one considers the emotional realm. Or have you never called upon a wee dram when distressed?
Actually there are reports that he said he bonked... that was at the press conf after the final ITT. And his training wonk, Dr. Lim, confirmed later that Landis did bonk by not eating on stage 16.
 
DMF said:
I believe that dehydration was his main problem. But dehydration is easy to counteract. Just add water. ;)

The drinking is hardly bizarre when one considers the emotional realm. Or have you never called upon a wee dram when distressed?

Point taken.

But an athlete re-hydrates with liquid, not alcohol.

As to the emotional realm : there is no accounting for that.
 
Here is a 2002 study with some 400 subjects. I haven't had time to do more with it than glance at the scatter plots (and won't tonight since I'll be riding :) ).
 
limerickman said:
But an athlete re-hydrates with liquid, not alcohol.
I've been known to re-hydrate with one in each hand. :cool:
(Not that I'm much of an athlete.)
 
DMF said:
Was it not you who said not to judge a study by the abstract? The abstract you analyse was for an early, very low-sample study that suggested a correlation. Later studies have (apparently) further demonstrated the correlation and provided a much more meaningful quantification of the effect.
No you missed the point. I demostrated why you should not read abstracts by pointing out facts in the abstract that don't make sense. But I explicitly said that I need to read the study to see how it was done.

Yet while denigrating the 1988 study as non-representative you use its numbers to leverage a proof. One presumes that you don't do studies for a living.
No I merely pointed out that either way what you were saying was wrong using the numbers YOU used to make an argument.

You have no basis to make that judgement. a) No references... ;)
You know this how? not having seen the text of the studies? I reported two credible sources that, while not primary source, have access to primary sources. (I've made a couple requests for the primary source. When I find I'll post it.)
Again no references. Nothing you've provided says anything about 200%.Just that some researchers (who?) said that it could go up that high.

Stranger things have happened. A famous pitcher in ML baseball - so hung over he could barely walk - pitched a no-hitter, and another threw a perfect game while tripping on LSD. Intuition is not always correct, and just saying something is impossible does not make it impossible.
And also allegedly Jesus walked on water... We are talking urban legends now... :confused:

I might also add that you're assuming that Floyd bonked, as in glycogen depletion. Robbie Ventura said the next morning that Floyd cracked largely because of heat exhaustion augmented (or possibly caused by) dehydration.
And re-hydrated using a known diuretic like alcohol. And you believe that?!


Sorry to interrupt your speculation with facts. :p
Don't be. You didn't provide any.
Yes I wasn't sure about when the alcohol incident took place. I thought that the logical argument would be to claim that he bonked because he drank beer. Not that he recuperated. I also thought that people would see how stupid this is (even to suggest it). Apparently I was wrong.
 
DwayneD said:
Could someone please tell me how you can test negative one day posative the next and then negative again the next, dont steroids stay in your system for weeks or months?

An honest question
Dwayne
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think oral steroids pass through teh system pretty quick. Within hours. But still, there's not real advantage to taking testosterone for just one day. Makes no sense to me. I really do believe that French baboons are running the lab. Seriously.
 
DMF said:
Here is a 2002 study with some 400 subjects. I haven't had time to do more with it than glance at the scatter plots (and won't tonight since I'll be riding :) ).
That has nothing to do with alcohol. In fact its title is:

"Sex and Age Related changes in Epitestosterone in Relation to Pregnolone Sulfate and Testosterone in normal subjects"
Where is the alcohol? Do you even read what you are posting or you google epitest studies and then post them here?
 
DMF said:
I believe that dehydration was his main problem. But dehydration is easy to counteract. Just add water. ;)

The drinking is hardly bizarre when one considers the emotional realm. Or have you never called upon a wee dram when distressed?

I found the place where I read that Landis had said is was a bonk...

From an article in the International Herald Tribune: SOURCE LINK: http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/30/sports/BIKE.php#

His next surprise was his collapse during the 16th of 20 daily stages, when he appeared to be riding in slow motion on the last of four climbs in the Alps.

"I had a very bad day on the wrong day," he said after finishing in 23rd place, 10 minutes 4 seconds behind the winner, and dropping from first place over all to 11th, 8:08 behind the new leader, Oscar Pereiro, a Spaniard with Caisse d'Epargne.

Although Landis offered no explanation for his collapse, his physiologist, Dr. Allen Lim, did.

"That bad day was the accumulation of fatigue," Lim said. "At some point, the body goes into shutdown mode and there's nothing you can do about it.

"It wasn't a good day for his body to want to lighten the load, but he really had no control over it. His body was going into self-repair mode."

That sounded good, especially the next day - the now-legendary 17th stage to Morzine - when Landis romped to a victory by more than five minutes after a solo breakaway that turned into an individual time trial over 125 kilometers, or 77 miles. He moved into third place over all, 30 seconds behind Pereiro, and sealed his victory two days later in a long race against the clock.

In a news conference after the time trial, Landis contradicted Lim's explanation.

"I forgot to eat," the rider said. "By the time I started to eat, it was too late. I bonked," the sport's word for running out of power.

"He admitted he bonked?" a disbelieving Lim said later. "He did bonk. He came back to the hotel and kept saying, 'What a jerk, what an idiot.'"

Stranger and stranger, concealing a commonplace bonk.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/30/sports/BIKE.php#
 
limerickman said:
And who was involved in the US tema preparation at Los Angeles? Mr Carmichael. Alexi Grewal admitted that he doped under Carmichael.

Someone may have already jumped your **** on this, but Carmichael was a member of the road team, not part of the coaching staff. Here's a link: http://outside.away.com/outside/tour-de-france-2005/chris-carmichael.html

And, a google search of "Alexi Greywall blood doping" turns up nothing. I remember reading he denied blood doping, but he did test positive for amphedamines (mau hung) a couple months prior to the games at a stage race in Colorado -- no link on that one -- but ended up beating it. In 1984, PEDs weren't such a big deal.
 
helmutRoole2 said:
Someone may have already jumped your **** on this, but Carmichael was a member of the road team, not part of the coaching staff. Here's a link: http://outside.away.com/outside/tour-de-france-2005/chris-carmichael.html

And, a google search of "Alexi Greywall blood doping" turns up nothing. I remember reading he denied blood doping, but he did test positive for amphedamines (mau hung) a couple months prior to the games at a stage race in Colorado -- no link on that one -- but ended up beating it. In 1984, PEDs weren't such a big deal.

He was thinking of Eddie Boryzewicz. Alexi definitely blood boosted though, as did several other Olympians that year... I was friends with the son of the doctor who did the transfusions - they weren't banned yet, but some riders got sick. Anyway, if you spell his name correctly and leave off the quotes you'll get a bunch of Google hits.
 

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