landis is innocent until proven guilty...



tucsonguy

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Aug 7, 2006
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i have to admit he looks guilty. it boggles the imagination to think landis would think he could gain benefit from a drug on stage 17, and then think he would get away with it when tested.

if i were him i think i would have helped the guy behind me to stay with me to the end and then let the other rider get the win for the stage as a way saying thanks for your help....and i won't get tested. THAT would make sense.

i am not sure what the 2nd place time was, but let's say he came in with another rider a minute later. that would have still put him in contention to win and he would NOT BE TESTED.

at this point, i can not accept that landis could be THAT stupid to dope and think he could chance being detected especially with the pre race ban of suspected dopers.

i will assume the test was correctly done, but i will also suspect that someone paid off the courier or somehow spiked his system. the problem is that EVEN IF he is innocent i think it will be impossible to prove it.

i wonder if a dna test was done to even prove if it was in fact his urine that was tested?

there is just no way this guy is going to get off. he is done. it is over...even if he is totally 100% innocent.

at this point he has painted himself into a corner if he did cheat. if he cheated and is saying he is innocent he also looks like a LIAR as well as a CHEAT.

i think the test for testosterone not his own is the capper on this case. however this is going to drag out for months and maybe even years.
for sure it will never be forgotten.

i am amazed that other riders are not speaking out much on this issue. i can understand riders sticking together, but a few annonymous interviews with other riders would be interesting to read.

i have wondered if he thought he took so little of the testosterone that it would be undetected if he drink gallons of water along the route. i do note that he was drinking and drinking and surely made a couple three pit stops along the way to relieve himself. maybe he thought he could pee it out of his system along the way.

but, again this whole thing just seems way way too illogical. he is either the most stupid tour rider in modern history or the one most set up by someone.

tucsonguy
 

Albatros

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Jul 16, 2006
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tucsonguy said:
i have to admit he looks guilty. it boggles the imagination to think landis would think he could gain benefit from a drug on stage 17, and then think he would get away with it when tested.

if i were him i think i would have helped the guy behind me to stay with me to the end and then let the other rider get the win for the stage as a way saying thanks for your help....and i won't get tested. THAT would make sense.

i am not sure what the 2nd place time was, but let's say he came in with another rider a minute later. that would have still put him in contention to win and he would NOT BE TESTED.

at this point, i can not accept that landis could be THAT stupid to dope and think he could chance being detected especially with the pre race ban of suspected dopers.

i will assume the test was correctly done, but i will also suspect that someone paid off the courier or somehow spiked his system. the problem is that EVEN IF he is innocent i think it will be impossible to prove it.

i wonder if a dna test was done to even prove if it was in fact his urine that was tested?

there is just no way this guy is going to get off. he is done. it is over...even if he is totally 100% innocent.

at this point he has painted himself into a corner if he did cheat. if he cheated and is saying he is innocent he also looks like a LIAR as well as a CHEAT.

i think the test for testosterone not his own is the capper on this case. however this is going to drag out for months and maybe even years.
for sure it will never be forgotten.

i am amazed that other riders are not speaking out much on this issue. i can understand riders sticking together, but a few annonymous interviews with other riders would be interesting to read.

i have wondered if he thought he took so little of the testosterone that it would be undetected if he drink gallons of water along the route. i do note that he was drinking and drinking and surely made a couple three pit stops along the way to relieve himself. maybe he thought he could pee it out of his system along the way.

but, again this whole thing just seems way way too illogical. he is either the most stupid tour rider in modern history or the one most set up by someone.

tucsonguy
It is much reasonable to think that Landis doped than to think that there is a conspiracy out there to get cyclists testing positive.
If we don't even believe in the doping testers we may better close the shop.

Or is it that they are so useless at catching cheats that they need to spike some samples to show they are doing their job ? :D
 

cynic

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Aug 5, 2006
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tucsonguy said:
i am amazed that other riders are not speaking out much on this issue. i can understand riders sticking together, but a few annonymous interviews with other riders would be interesting to read.
tucsonguy
Many of your points have been addressed in other posts, notably on the sticky:
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t357668.html
Regarding riders speaking out, that's like getting magicians to reveal their secrets, it does happen but don't be holding your breath.
Manzano did a lot of talking http://www.cyclingforums.com/t356628.html
 

Bro Deal

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Jun 26, 2006
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Albatros said:
It is much reasonable to think that Landis doped than to think that there is a conspiracy out there to get cyclists testing positive.
If we don't even believe in the doping testers we may better close the shop.
Although I tend to laugh at the excuses made by riders who are caught, I also cannot help but be a little suspicious of the testing. We know from police busts that vast quantities of doping products are being consumed and yet very, very few ever test positive. I cannot help but think that there has been a lot of positive results covererd up.

The U.S. Olympic organization was covering up positives, I think the same has probably gone on with the UCI. We know they allowed Armstrong to weasel his way out of a positive in 1999.
 

allegroman

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Sep 14, 2005
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We need to get people like you on the guantanamo bay supporters club because due process doesn't seem to matter in your world. Last I heard it was the USADA that will determine what action is warranted after Landis has presented his defense.
Why is a tampered test sample so far fetched? Why is it that many French have no problem believing that the CIA is responsible for 9/11 but have such a difficult time getting their minds around the fact that someone could actually taint a sample. Not saying its the case but there are many things about this that leave one with questions.
Why is it that the A and B samples are stored and tested by the same lab? Why not implement a double blind procedure (with the B tests performed by a different lab) to allow for a higher level of certainty like in clinical trial testing? How come the French lab can't seem to shut down its employee's propensity to leak confidential information? How reliable is a lab that lacks that discipline?




weremichael said:
he's been proven guilty
 

DV1976

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Sep 29, 2004
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allegroman said:
How come the French lab can't seem to shut down its employee's propensity to leak confidential information? How reliable is a lab that lacks that discipline?
This has never happened... None of the leaks have come from the lab... As for your other questions...
 

stevebaby

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Jun 22, 2004
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Landis was a professional rider who either knew,or had a responsibility to make himself aware of the testing procedures that he would be subject to and his professional responsibility regarding the use of banned substances.
He entered the race voluntarily and by doing so he accepted that the testing procedures would be fair and accurate.
If Landis or any other rider has a problem with the testing procedure,the answer is quite simple.
Don't race.
 

allegroman

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Sep 14, 2005
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I am referring to the Lance Armstrong affair where they are at least complicit in divulging proprietary information in that they released results with control numbers that could be cross checked. That's like a bank releasing my account number but not my name and claiming no personal information was compromised. They are definately not the only source of leaks but they are a source, and that can't be denied...


DV1976 said:
This has never happened... None of the leaks have come from the lab... As for your other questions...
 

allegroman

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Sep 14, 2005
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Your logic, well, defies logic unless you live in some utopian society. I am sure Landis hoped for "fair and accurate" testing but I guess you can guarantee it. In the real world justice is often imperfect, people get accused unfairly, are denied due process, a fair hearing, and sometimes are even subject to corruption. But in your world, people who run afoul of the system are at fault because they should have known better? Wow, this brings a whole new meaning to human rights. I think Belarus and Cuba would like to talk to you.



stevebaby said:
Landis was a professional rider who either knew,or had a responsibility to make himself aware of the testing procedures that he would be subject to and his professional responsibility regarding the use of banned substances.
He entered the race voluntarily and by doing so he accepted that the testing procedures would be fair and accurate.
If Landis or any other rider has a problem with the testing procedure,the answer is quite simple.
Don't race.
 

slovakguy

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Mar 17, 2006
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...first, as for armstrong, the dutch lawyer pointed out the lab's many lapses in "chain of evidence" procedures, which is to say, there was a question as to the "purity" of the sample. as for landis, as much as i wish for this guy to write his name with the legends after that herculean ride, even i think he screwed up and let himself get nailed. until landis and his numerous legal consultants come up with some better excuse for this, i am joining the bunch that says second place gets the tdf, but only 'cause he didn't get caught. what we should not lose sight of is what lemond pointed out...that the guys in the peleton need to clean up this mess. given the euros on the table, i won't be holding my breath....
 

DV1976

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Sep 29, 2004
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allegroman said:
I am referring to the Lance Armstrong affair where they are at least complicit in divulging proprietary information in that they released results with control numbers that could be cross checked. That's like a bank releasing my account number but not my name and claiming no personal information was compromised. They are definately not the only source of leaks but they are a source, and that can't be denied...
I don't think that is clear how Ressiot obtained the first set of codes and even if he obtained the results from the lab at the time (the results were known about a year before Ressiot managed to cross check) they were just the results of informal test for research purposes. They might have not been classified. It's clear, however, how he got the second that allowed him to cross-check the results and that was the leak.
To think that a French lab would run a vendetta against American cylists is far more far-fetched than believing that CIA was implicated in 9/11. What happened with Landis is far more damaging to France than the USA, American cycling or even Landis himself. It's like Stern rigging the NBA finals to give you an idea... As for your other questions (since I started answering) what you suggesting isn't viable for the following reasons.
1) More expensive (for obvious reasons)
2) Greater risk for errors.
3) Greater risk of sample contamination (again for obvious reasons)
The French lab is as good as any and this is supported by other labs like Catlin's or Ayotte's. Moreover, WADA is not its only business and it must have an impeccable reputation in order to stay in business.
That's my two cents anyway.
 

tucsonguy

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Aug 7, 2006
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I believe i said I thought he was guilty. After all this testing of his on the #17 sample, I believe he should just come forward and say he did it.

Why put himself and everyone else through another day of this charade that he is innocent.

I guess I want to believe he is innocent. It seems so hard to believe he would be that stupid to take drugs before that stage and allow himself to come in first knowing he was going to be tested.

What a horrible way to end a career in sport. And i am sure he is kicking himself knowing he could have likely done nearly as well without the drug.

Sheeesh, this is so stupid.

It sure has soured me on bike racing. I got cable for the month of July just to watch this race on OLN and spent everyday of the race waking up early to cheer for the Americans and for the tour in general.

I just wanted any American and hopefully a couple to make a good showing. Like many others I was very much in awe of the #17 win by Landis and feel betrayed as a fan.

I am sure if I were Lance Armstrong I would be a bit upset with Landis because of the negative light now cast on the sport.

Cycling was becoming a topic of more people in American after Lance's wins, and now I think many will just ignor it. Fortunately, American football is coming on and we can forget about bike racing and Landis.
Thanks for nothing, Landis.

tg
 

stevebaby

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Jun 22, 2004
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allegroman said:
people who run afoul of the system are at fault because they should have known better?
WTF do Belarus or Cuba have to with someone who has been tested and found to have a positive result for banned substances?
If you were trying to find an analogous situation...try Mel Gibson's case.
In Gibson's case...He knew or should have made himself aware that alcohol is a banned substance for vehicle operators.He voluntarily drove while that banned substance was in his body,he was tested and found positive for that substance.
Noone forced Gibson to drive and noone forced him to drink.He knew the penalty for having alcohol in his body.If he has a problem with drink-driving,the decision was his and his alone.
Landis knew the penalties for doping.It was entirely voluntary for him to enter the race.He knew he would likely be tested and as a professional rider with expert medical advice available to him he would also be familiar with the testing procedures.If he had a problem with the testing procedure,the time to declare it was before the race,not after it.
Noone forced him to race,noone forced him to enter the Tour,noone forced him to ride for Phonak and noone forced him to dope.
It was entirely his decision.He took a gamble at the end of his career... and lost!

"Belarus and Cuba",that gets funnier each time I look at it! More,please!
:D :D :D
 

patch70

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Jun 19, 2003
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tucsonguy said:
i have to admit he looks guilty. it boggles the imagination to think landis would think he could gain benefit from a drug on stage 17, and then think he would get away with it when tested.
IF he is a doper, he did NOT decide to start doping that one time with just one drug.

IF he is a doper, he was doping all along with multiple products but only tested positive to one of them on one occasion.

The other times, he got his doses and his masking agents right.

Before stage 17, he stuffed up with either a dose or a missed masking agent (eg he forgot to take his epitestosterone so the ratio stuffed up).
 

Albatros

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Jul 16, 2006
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Bro Deal said:
Although I tend to laugh at the excuses made by riders who are caught, I also cannot help but be a little suspicious of the testing. We know from police busts that vast quantities of doping products are being consumed and yet very, very few ever test positive. I cannot help but think that there has been a lot of positive results covererd up.

The U.S. Olympic organization was covering up positives, I think the same has probably gone on with the UCI. We know they allowed Armstrong to weasel his way out of a positive in 1999.
I don't deny that it is possible that there is some cover up of positive tests when there is so many people around the sport who are involved in doping, and money is with the dopers not with the testers.
On the other hand testing is apparently so inefficient that probably they don't need to bribe people in many cases.
 

Zerman

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Jul 23, 2006
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Albatros said:
I don't deny that it is possible that there is some cover up of positive tests when there is so many people around the sport who are involved in doping, and money is with the dopers not with the testers.
On the other hand testing is apparently so inefficient that probably they don't need to bribe people in many cases.
His guilty is of course proven !! Now he has to prove his innoncence ... But of course it won't be possible.

Die cheatahhh.
 

JohnO

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Jul 5, 2003
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patch70 said:
Before stage 17, he stuffed up with either a dose or a missed masking agent (eg he forgot to take his epitestosterone so the ratio stuffed up).

This is what makes me sick of the entire pro cycling scene. I'm out chugging along on my bike at my pitiful 18-20mph, pushing to do a bit better. Sure, in my mind, I'm imagining our paceline is the Tour peloton, and we're approaching the Tourmalet. What would they be thinking?

They're thinking about masking agents, trigger points on a test, and staying below the magical 50% hematocrit. And that's just not the sort of thing I want to think about when I'm out riding. I ride to become a better, stronger person, not a person who is willing to sacrifice my future health for instant fame and riches. It just destroys any inspiration I might draw from watching pro cycling.
 

poulidor

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Jul 31, 2006
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allegroman said:
I am referring to the Lance Armstrong affair where they are at least complicit in divulging proprietary information in that they released results with control numbers that could be cross checked. That's like a bank releasing my account number but not my name and claiming no personal information was compromised. They are definately not the only source of leaks but they are a source, and that can't be denied...
Oh, yeh the same security as your bank for your old urines! :rolleyes: :D
So the costs will raise.

Do'nt you think it's easier and cheaper to hold in a safe or to destroy the namelist, or simply do'nt give a copy of it?
All is money in this world.
 

weremichael

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Jul 14, 2004
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allegroman said:
We need to get people like you on the guantanamo bay supporters club because due process doesn't seem to matter in your world. Last I heard it was the USADA that will determine what action is warranted after Landis has presented his defense.
Why is a tampered test sample so far fetched? Why is it that many French have no problem believing that the CIA is responsible for 9/11 but have such a difficult time getting their minds around the fact that someone could actually taint a sample. Not saying its the case but there are many things about this that leave one with questions.
Why is it that the A and B samples are stored and tested by the same lab? Why not implement a double blind procedure (with the B tests performed by a different lab) to allow for a higher level of certainty like in clinical trial testing? How come the French lab can't seem to shut down its employee's propensity to leak confidential information? How reliable is a lab that lacks that discipline?


Lay off the pipe weed; you're paranoid. The fact is the man tested positive, twice. I don't get how anyone can have blind faith in cyclists anymore??

There has been cheating in this sport since the beginning and it will continue. So your rider gets busted today, it must be a conspiracy. You're right France is out to get us...woooooo....Beware of the Frenchman....don't be a zenophobe!!!
 

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