Landis on CNN

[FriendlyFred]

Landis was on CNN this morning talking about the testing and how he's "innocent," and someone has an agenda. What a crock. Try taking responsibility Floyd. Lying cheater. Just like Tyler Hamilton....it MUST be someone else's fault, lord knows HE would NEVER cheat. Ha. The tests, both of them, indicate differently. I'm so sick of these guys getting caught then trying to blame everyone else, or say the test was tainted, or it's "the French" on some agenda, or whatever. He cheated, he got caught, take the medicine.

sorry for the attitude but gosh, I'm just SO tired of these lying cheaters not taking responsibility. One after another of these guys. Do I think Floyd cheated? Yes. Do I think most of the riders cheat? Yes. That doesn't change the fact...when you get caught, you get caught no matter who you are. I don't expect anyone to be stand up enough to actually say "yes, I cheated," but I would like, just once, for them to stop with the "I'm so innocent, I never did it" parade of excuses.

 

[fscyclist]

Just watched the interviews of Floyd on CNN.com and MSNBC.com. Looks like his defense is going to be the "lab has an agenda" and he brought up the Lance/EPO case as an example. In my mind he would be better off sticking to the beer/Jack Daniels defense. Seeing that he has the same legal team as Tyler, the current approach doesn't surprise me. Don't know about the rest of you, but if I wanted to defend myself against doping charges, I don't think I'd be hiring the same legal team that defended Tyler.

 

[FriendlyFred]

Just watched the interviews of Floyd on CNN.com and MSNBC.com. Looks like his defense is going to be the "lab has an agenda" and he brought up the Lance/EPO case as an example. In my mind he would be better off sticking to the beer/Jack Daniels defense. Seeing that he has the same legal team as Tyler, the current approach doesn't surprise me. Don't know about the rest of you, but if I wanted to defend myself against doping charges, I don't think I'd be hiring the same legal team that defended Tyler.

He's coming on The Dan Patrick Show on ESPN Radio at 1:25pm. He's now claiming all of the excuses were the idea of the lawyers he hired, not him. Where does it stop. Is no one responsible for anything anymore? HE hired the lawyers, he should take responsibility for what they're out there spinning. I guess he's a cheat AND a lyer huh. I have no respect for Mr. Landis after seeing his dog and pony show all over tv today.

edited to add:
What next...a disappearing twin?

 

[poulidor]

He's now claiming all of the excuses were the idea of the lawyers he hired, not him. Where does it stop. Is no one responsible for anything anymore? HE hired the lawyers, he should take responsibility for what they're out there spinning. I guess he's a cheat AND a lyer huh. I have no respect for Mr. Landis after seeing his dog and pony show all over tv today.

the situation is not under his control now, he is sinking. I think WBT can win his bet!
Or he has new lawyers?

I hope see Floyd with the truth in his mouth, and all will finish. He can do it! allez floyd, courage!

 

[Smilf]

I hope see Floyd with the truth in his mouth, and all will finish. He can do it! allez floyd, courage!

Now that I'm pretty sure he did cheat. I got a feeling he would rather tell the truth, but I would bet there is more pressure on him from people he "knows" to not tell the truth.

 

[fscyclist]

Now that I'm pretty sure he did cheat. I got a feeling he would rather tell the truth, but I would bet there is more pressure on him from people he "knows" to not tell the truth.

I wonder what they have written in their contracts regarding doping/cheating. Do they have to repay their team and/or sponsors? Can sponsors sue him for fraud if he admits?

 

[SaintAndrew]

Now that I'm pretty sure he did cheat. I got a feeling he would rather tell the truth, but I would bet there is more pressure on him from people he "knows" to not tell the truth.

postive result for exogenous test and you're pretty sure he did cheat? i'm gonna ask for you on my jury if i ever get tried for something.

 

[Bro Deal]

I wonder what they have written in their contracts regarding doping/cheating. Do they have to repay their team and/or sponsors? Can sponsors sue him for fraud if he admits?

That will never happen. The way corporations handle scandal is to run away as quickly as possible. They do not want to get into a messy court battle. That is why embezzlers are usually quietly dismissed and never prosecuted.

He will also not admit to it. With a two year ban he will be thirty-two when it ends. His hip replacement may have taken him out of action for that long anyway. With the ProTour all but gone, he may very well be able to race the big races at the end of 2008. He could continue for two to four years afterward, so betraying the sport would cost him a lot of money. He messed up his doping schedule, but all the teams know he has what it takes to win the big one. He won't have a problem finding a team to sign him unless ther ProTour's four year rule continues on in some form.

 

[SaintAndrew]

I wonder what they have written in their contracts regarding doping/cheating. Do they have to repay their team and/or sponsors? Can sponsors sue him for fraud if he admits?

that would be so ridiculous. it's not like a guy that makes a few hundred grand a year is spending all his own money on these doctors, gear, all sorts of trainers, etc. besides with about 10 riders in the past few years getting popped for phonak it takes all doubt away from the team's involvement- it stinks.

 

[fscyclist]

that would be so ridiculous. it's not like a guy that makes a few hundred grand a year is spending all his own money on these doctors, gear, all sorts of trainers, etc. besides with about 10 riders in the past few years getting popped for phonak it takes all doubt away from the team's involvement- it stinks.

I don't see what's so ridiculous. If the team can immediately fire him if he tests positive, I don't know why a contract couldn't also demand that they recoup his salary or a portion of it.

When I mentioned sponsors, I was referring to corporate sponsors not involved with Phonak. Yeah, if I were Phonak I wouldn't press too hard out of fear of him revealing info. But if I were a differnt company that sponsored him independently of Phonak, I might want some money back.

However, I agree with BroDeal in that most companies are going to do everything to distance themselves from Floyd rather then have a negative association that might occur with a lawsuit.

 

[fscyclist]

He messed up his doping schedule, but all the teams know he has what it takes to win the big one. He won't have a problem finding a team to sign him unless ther ProTour's four year rule continues on in some form.

Really? I wonder about that. I wonder how Tyler's search for a new team is going right now?

Now if he admitted to it, named names, and helped bust the doping rings, I think most would be willing to forgive after he did his time (or even before), just like most people have done with David Millar.

 

[Bro Deal]

Really? I wonder about that. I wonder how Tyler's search for a new team is going right now?

Now if he admitted to it, named names, and helped bust the doping rings, I think most would be willing to forgive after he did his time (or even before), just like most people have done with David Millar.

Tyler's situation is different. The UCI has it out for him and has made it known that will try to ban him for life based on the Operation Puerto evidence. They are also trying to assert that he falls under the ProTour's four year rule. Considering that it took a year and a half for Hamilton's appeal process to finish, it could be well into next year before he gets the a-okay to race. A team's budget is better spent elsewhere.

As to your second comment, who would be willing to forgive? The fans might, but the other riders would not. In cycling if the other riders have it out for you then you are not going to be very successful. Only a loose cannon or someone at the end of his career would be willing to name names. Libel laws in most of europe operate very differently than in the U.S., making a full confession problematic.

Miller did not name names. He fessed up to the smallest subset of charges that there was evidence to prove.

 

[fscyclist]

Tyler's situation is different. The UCI has it out for him and has made it known that will try to ban him for life based on the Operation Puerto evidence. They are also trying to assert that he falls under the ProTour's four year rule. Considering that it took a year and a half for Hamilton's appeal process to finish, it could be well into next year before he gets the a-okay to race. A team's budget is better spent elsewhere.

As to your second comment, who would be willing to forgive? The fans might, but the other riders would not. In cycling if the other riders have it out for you then you are not going to be very successful. Only a loose cannon or someone at the end of his career would be willing to name names. Libel laws in most of europe operate very differently than in the U.S., making a full confession problematic.

Miller did not name names. He fessed up to the smallest subset of charges that there was evidence to prove.

Agree that Tyler's situation is much different, but did you hear of any teams courting him before Op Puerto broke? Who's to say Floyd's situation won't look the same or worse after two years of investigation? My point was Millar was courted and lined up by Saunier months ahead of his first race. Why? I think because the sponsor could put a jersey on the guy and feel okay about it. He admitted what he did and people get over it. In fact many people cheered him on because they thought he was the only clean guy in the Tour. However, with someone who continues to deny, I think it would be hard for a corporation to put that guy in a jersey, wear their logo, and have them represent their company for the same reason you stated that the corporations wouldn't sue for fraud - negative publicity.

No question there will be repercussions from the cycling community if someone squeals, but that same attitude has gotten them to where they are now. I wonder how much longer corporations will pour money into cycling when much of the public has the perception that they're all dopers and cheaters. Unless things change, I think the major corporations will back out and you'll see much less money in the sport which of course means pay cuts for all the riders. Is that what they're hoping for?

Can't comment much on European libel laws, but if he comes clean in the US, I don't see how European courts would have jurisdiction (maybe there's a lawyer out there who can answer this). Also, it's never libel if it's the truth.

 

[JohnO]

Have to agree - the PR releases sound like Tyler II. Every wacko reason in the world. That might raise doubt with a jury, but in the court of public opinion, it's death. As Tyler found... that lying sack of manure. If it weren't for the Tyler Factor, Landis might get cut a bit more slack.

Damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't. My guess is that the team management was behind this. Who would hire a rider that turned in his last boss? Teams that dope sure wouldn't, and teams that don't (if there are any) won't want him for the disgrace. Rat out a fellow cyclist, and you'll learn the meaning of the word 'flick', on a daily basis. Note how the only riders who have spoken out are all retired.

It's a pity, because listening to Floyd himself, he comes off like a naive farm boy caught up in the cruel machinery of Professional Sports. He probably got pushed into doping, and is definitely being pushed into this publicity spectacle. Never thought I'd follow cycling for the tragedy.

 

[Bro Deal]

Agree that Tyler's situation is much different, but did you hear of any teams courting him before Op Puerto broke? Who's to say Floyd's situation won't look the same or worse after two years of investigation?

Unless things change, I think the major corporations will back out and you'll see much less money in the sport which of course means pay cuts for all the riders. Is that what they're hoping for?

Can't comment much on European libel laws, but if he comes clean in the US, I don't see how European courts would have jurisdiction (maybe there's a lawyer out there who can answer this). Also, it's never libel if it's the truth.

Landis' situation might get worse in the future if there is less tolerance for doping. The GT organizations might hold a grudge and never let him start a grand tour again. But using the past as a guide, getting busted and serving your suspension has never prevented someone from finding another team.

Hamilton's misfortune is having his suspension end as the the sport is engulfed in scandal and the UCI is looking to make an example. His ties to Operation Puerto give the UCI means to make him a scapegoat. The teams are gunshy and do not want to be seen as accomodating doping.

The sponsorship side of things will be interesting in the coming year. The ProTour is dead--or at least its guarantee of getting ProTour teams in the GTs is dead--so there is probably an opportunity for sponsors to pull out. They won't be getting what they paid for.

As to the libel laws, the U.S. system favors society as a whole over the individual. The theory is that the potential harm to the individual is outweighed by society's benefit of a freer exchange of information. Public figures are given even less protection than an ordinary citizen to make such things as allegations of corruption by public officials easier. It is very difficult to prove slander or libel against a public figure in the U.S. The downside is that it is easy for an individual's reputation to be attacked and often there is no recourse.

It is much easier in most of europe, especially in Britain which is the libel capital of the world, to sue for libel. Unless Landis is planning on not racing in europe, he would have to deal with the fallout of what he says no matter where he makes the claim. Truth is a defense against libel, but proving truth is not so easy.

But again he would be a fool to rat out doping establishment. He can still race for a few years. You need someone like Hamilton, who might never race again and has ties to three different teams. He knows where the bodies are buried. He can make his claims in the U.S. and not have to worry about any legal fallout in europe. The big problem for him is that his credibility is shot. If he says anything he will immediately be attacked as a liar.

 

[aacliment]

Have to agree - the PR releases sound like Tyler II. Every wacko reason in the world. That might raise doubt with a jury, but in the court of public opinion, it's death. As Tyler found... that lying sack of manure. If it weren't for the Tyler Factor, Landis might get cut a bit more slack.

Damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't. My guess is that the team management was behind this. Who would hire a rider that turned in his last boss? Teams that dope sure wouldn't, and teams that don't (if there are any) won't want him for the disgrace. Rat out a fellow cyclist, and you'll learn the meaning of the word 'flick', on a daily basis. Note how the only riders who have spoken out are all retired.

It's a pity, because listening to Floyd himself, he comes off like a naive farm boy caught up in the cruel machinery of Professional Sports. He probably got pushed into doping, and is definitely being pushed into this publicity spectacle. Never thought I'd follow cycling for the tragedy.

I agree. The sad part is, if nobody has the courage to talk, a complete clean up of cycling or even just a decent clean up remains pure fantasy. And, every winner of any race of any significance will be doubted on whether he raced clean or not.