Landis' stage 17 explained by Dr. Allen Lim



Walrus

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I'd be interested on the thoughts of you guys on this perspective from Dr Allen Lim.



Floyd Landis, Cyclist​
Stage 17
Water, Plain and Simple

by Dr. Allen Lim

Regarding Floyd's Stage 17 performance. The day is often referred to as an 'inhuman' ride and the 'miracle' of that performance has been wrongly inferred to be a result of testosterone.
A closer look at the data, however, shows that Floyd's performance that day was well within his physical and mental capacity. In fact, the most important contributors to Floyd's comeback was the tactics that developed during the ride -- the hesitation by the peleton to chase and Floyd's intelligent use of water.

With respect to the data, Floyd averaged 281 watts for the entire 5 hour and 23 minute ride. In training before the Tour and even before the Tour of Georgia, Floyd would regularly perform 6-hour rides at 300-310 watt averages. As a point of reference, the overall average for the mountain days in the 2006 Tour de France was 269 watts +/- 16 watts, while the average in the 2005 Tour de France for the mountains was 274 watts +/- 20 watts. So Floyd's performance on Stage 17 this year was within the range that we would expect for the mountains in the Tour and below what he is capable of doing while training.

An important note is that the pattern of power output that Floyd exhibited on S17 was extremely similar to what he does in training. It was a much steadier power profile as he was riding alone. This is in contrast to the more variable power profile seen when riding in the pack. For a given power output, it is much easier on the body to ride at a steady pace than an undulating one. Thus, Floyd had the advantage of having a smoother ride for much of the day.



On the 5 climbs that day, we have direct measures of Floyd's power output and estimates of what Floyd would have had to producd if he were back in the pack. Though the times I have are not exact, and I will have to do a more careful video review to make sure things are accurate, from the previous climbing days Floyd was averaging between 370 to 400 watts while climbing with the main field. We knew going into the day that if he was in the 390 to 400 watt range, he would likely be putting time on the field. At 380 he would probably be even with the field. In fact, 380 watts was the pace the field was holding on Toussuire when he got dropped on S16. At 370 watts we knew he would be losing time. From what I could see on video, this fact held true during the race. So for the five climbs that day, the time and power outputs were as follows:
· Col des Saises: 36 min 55 sec at 395 watts (gains time on field)
·Col des Aravis: 16 min 49 sec at 371 watts (loses time on field)
·Col de la Colombiere: 27 min 45 sec at 392 watts (gains time on field)
·Cote de Chatillon: 11 min 7 sec at 374 watts (loses time on field)
· Col de Joux Plane: 37 min 34 sec at 372 watts (loses time on field)


What is very interesting about the data from the climbs is that it shows that Floyd gained much of his time on the field not on the climbs but on the descents. He's well known as the most talented descender in the pro peleton, and he definitely put on a clinic on S17.


Beyond all of the power data the real reason for his victory, in my opinion, are the following two facts:

First, the pack just didn't take Floyd's attack seriously and waited far too long to chase. If they had chased on the second climb they would have caught him. All of the teams were just looking at each other. They just thought he would fry out there by himself. They didn't believe he could do it, but Floyd believed he could do it. More importantly, he had the numbers that said he could do it and just watched the power meter all day. He knew what pace he had to hold on the climbs; he could watch his power drop as he changed body positions, and he knew from his training and previous races the limit of what he could hold for the entire ride. Rather than worry about the field, Floyd just paced himself. And they didn't chase.

Because of the direct and immediate feedback from the power meter, Floyd came to an immediate and extraordinarily important realization during his ride -- that every time he poured ice cold water on his body, his power output went up. We had discussed staying hydrated and cool that morning. In fact, when I weighed him that morning, he was still underweight, and I gave him a stern warning about staying hydrated, suggesting that it was more than just bonking that hurt his performance the day before but dehydration. From our previous discussions and Floyd's own experience, the relationship between performance and heat dissipation is one that we both take extremely seriously. In fact, on most of the hot days at last year's and this year's Tour, Floyd would always have to switch shoes every other day or have his shoes dried because they would be soaked from all the water he poured on himself. We know that whether you drink the fluid or pour it on you, the bottom line is that there has to be sweat or water evaporating off your body to maintain performance. The fact of the matter is for these athletes, heat dissipation is one of the most important factors determining performance. Either blood is used to cool them or used to deliver oxygen. The cooler the body, the more blood is available for producing power. With this in mind, Floyd went through a staggering 70 water bottles that day. He drank approximately 15 carbohydrate/electrolyte bottles and poured the rest -- ice cold water -- over his head and body. In the pack, from our previous day bottle counts, we know that the average rider can only get 10 to 15 bottles. Thus, by the time the pack started chasing, most riders were already severely dehydrated and under severe heat stress. The road temperature reached 100 degrees F that day and from talking to riders like Dave Zabriskie and Christian VandeVelde who were chasing hard in the last part of the stage, the day's heat was a huge impediment to their ability to catch Floyd. For Floyd, all of that direct access to bottles from the team's follow vehicle kept him in a virtual microclimate of 70 degrees F. This is such an extraordinary advantage that it's hard to conceive of any drug that could give him such a boost. It was water, plain and simple, not testosterone that was responsible for his incredible ride. It had such a huge impact on his ride that later that night in the hotel, Floyd asked me not to mention it in my daily reports, as he wanted to keep the significance of that advantage as his own.

So these are some of my thoughts.

Allen
 
The numbers may well have been within his physical boundaries...doesn't change the fact that he still, in all probability, took a blood transfusion with testosterone in it. As far as I can tell this is just an attempt by a doctor to use his intellectual prestige to trick us normal folks.
 
I believe that recount of S17 is most likely a good explanation of what happened. All those numbers would appear to be sensible.

Landis' problem is that doesn't explain a positive test for exogenous testosterone.
 
I believe that Allen Lim is a fraud with respect to his apologies for the Medicated Mennonite.

All of Floyd Landis' pose are frauds too. (make claims they cannot prove)

Only Floyd's father-in-law gets an exemption as a result of his recent suicide (gunshot to the head).

Floyd is a paycheck to these shills. They NEED Landis to secure more work.
Whatever dribble Lim might claim about Landis base power, in order to sell more Powertap systems---it too was drugged performance. He doped for training too.
 
Flyer's.Finale! said:
Floyd is a paycheck to these shills. They NEED Landis to secure more work.
Agree that Lim's relationship with Landis (Phonak) colours his testimony.
Flyer's.Finale! said:
it too was drugged performance. He doped for training too.
But Landis' supposed output for s17 was on par with his s16 output (where he tested negative), less than his training output (which you'd expect) and on par with his average for the 2006 and 2005 mountain stages.

The pivotal point is that we're meant to believe that his power stats are accurate, but they certainly fall within what elite cyclists generate.

Can't wait till it's all over and we can get back to the racing.
 
Rhubarb said:
I believe that recount of S17 is most likely a good explanation of what happened. All those numbers would appear to be sensible.

Landis' problem is that doesn't explain a positive test for exogenous testosterone.
I think that Landis will use this sort of data to try and make the point that he wasn't performing beyond his "normal" capabilities. If he can convince the court that his performance wasn't superhuman, and that the laboratory made mistakes and have done so in the past...maybe that will be enough? The whole argument on whether testosterone can provide a boost in performance within 24 hours is tenuous, there are doctors on both sides of that camp. It's going to be very interesting to watch it unfold...and a whole waste of time and money. One thing Landis is right about is that it shouldn't take this long to resolve such things.
 
Balco made it crystal clear:


You can be wacked out on performance drugs a still AND pass a $200 urine test.

No testing whatsoever for:
insulin
IGF-1, 2, 3
Interleukins
micro dosing of EPO (daily injections)
hGH (human Grwoth Hormones)
eGH (eguine Growth Hormones)
Clomid
hCG
testosterone---UNLESS the T/E EXCEEDS 4:1 which is four times normal!

Passing any drug test is MEANINGLESS.

Landis had to be super overdosed (double testosterone injections chased by a double blood transfusions laced with yet more synthetic testosterone tainted blood)

They pushed his blood doping on stage 17 to counter his bonking on stage 16. We DO NOT need to know the dirty details---as he FAILED BOTH for his T/E ratio and for synthetic hormones, his A & B urine samples were heavily doped.

Phonak had nothing to lose. Put a pitchfork in them now.

And NEVER pay money to Arnie Baker or Allen Lim. They are not credible.

My question remains: Why didn't Pereiro and CSC chase Landis with bigger tempo, limiting his time gap to six minutes or less?

I smell a promoter-media-partner entertainment fix to go with the daily doping!

btw: Landis and his Nike doping attorney, Howard Jacobs will want to defer, postpone, delay, and counter market when they know they are GUILTY as hell. USADA is political---and must be helping this excellent tactic.
 
Flyer's.Finale! said:
btw: Landis and his Nike doping attorney, Howard Jacobs will want to defer, postpone, delay, and counter market when they know they are GUILTY as hell. USADA is political---and must be helping this excellent tactic.
...I agree and his pending book which is still to be completed. The release would fit perfectly with the GUILTY verdict. "Innocent man GOT done" - you sappy yanks will buy it by the box load.... or should that be stupid ?
 
"...the times are not exact and I will have to do a more careful video review to make sure that things are accurate..."
Dr. Allen Lim

Landis has kept quiet about the advantage that cooling himself with water gave him, when he was competing in the limelight of the most widely televised multi-day sporting event in the world?
Sure Floyd...we'll keep your secret. You can trust us.

Unfortunately...we can't trust you.
 
Walrus said:
Agree that Lim's relationship with Landis (Phonak) colours his testimony.

Can't wait till it's all over and we can get back to the racing.
Lim's statement is a classic Red Herring!

The fact that Landis may have been able to produce similar wattage numbers in training (and I'm still not convinced he could if we're talking 'normalized' power - not every ride averaging 281 watts is the same) is irrelavant to the legal proceedings, as it does nothing to confirm or deny that he was using an ilegal performance enhancing substance.

But we, the court of public opinion, are meant to draw the conclusion that "since he could produce that kind of power without performance enhancing drugs, he didn't need the drugs and therefore didn't take them."

Since this 'trial' won't have a jury, anything that isn't dirrectly relavant legally won't be considered.

I too am looking forward to the upcoming season of racing but I'm also sure that we haven't seen the last of failed tests and doping allegations.
 
That's because all (100%) of the Pro Tour roders abuse illegal drugs.

Not 20%, not 22%, 50%, 80%, not 99%. 100%!

It's the business. Tous Dope. From the guys yo-yoing OTB to the podium.

Clean riders do not collect steady wages in that endeavor.
 
Flyer's.Finale! said:
That's because all (100%) of the Pro Tour roders abuse illegal drugs.

Not 20%, not 22%, 50%, 80%, not 99%. 100%!

It's the business. Tous Dope. From the guys yo-yoing OTB to the podium.

Clean riders do not collect steady wages in that endeavor.
Yawn...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
 
Actually, yeah it was. 61 posts in 3 days that say the same thing? I smell another ban coming.
 
Guess again donkey kong boy.

No illegal doping, no Grand Tour shows, no Grand Tour threads.

Pretty simple math except for the mentally handicapped.

The only ban here is for you to rally the doper apologists and BAN together.

Live Wrong! Lance, Floyd, Tyler, Roberto, Benoit, Manuel, Pavel, Michele all do!
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/51324
 
It means:

You haven't been right about any posts or predictions yet.

Barabaro was a peptide hormone fast (and stress fractured) TB, not an unmedicated mule.

Guess some more. It's your dime.
 

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