Last TDF winner (besides Ullrich!) to climb at 60rpm?



S

Shayana Kadidal

Guest
My memory doesn't go back far enough to remember any Tour winner (or
any particularly sucessful climber) who climbed at such a slow
cadence, beyond the 154-pound Ullrich of 1997. Post-knee problems, he
seemed to be picking up his climbing cadence last year.

I've heard Hinault used to climb for miles out of the saddle in his
youth, but not that he rode at a low cadence. I actually remember
Indurain riding at what looked like a relatively low cadence in the
mountains, but not as low as Der Kaiser.

Of course, back in the days of single cogs there had to have been some
guys grinding it out uphill. I know they would flip their rear wheels
to get a bigger cog for the climbs, but the photos seem to show not
very huge cogs on either side.

Anyone with any more historical insight? Thanks.--Shayana Kadidal
 
On 16 Jul 2004 23:37:38 -0700, [email protected] (Shayana Kadidal)
wrote:

>My memory doesn't go back far enough to remember any Tour winner (or
>any particularly sucessful climber) who climbed at such a slow
>cadence, beyond the 154-pound Ullrich of 1997. Post-knee problems, he
>seemed to be picking up his climbing cadence last year.


Interesting discussion, I'm actually not sure why he insisted on
mashing it out like this yesterday with no juice in his legs...He
looked like Indurain going up Hautacam in 1996!
 
On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:05:01 +0200, Keith <[email protected]> wrote:

> I'm actually not sure why he insisted on
>mashing it out like this yesterday with no juice in his legs...


Probably because that was the fastest way for him to get up the
mountain.

JT
 
Indurian in his prime climbed at a faster cadence than other riders
about 100-105 rpm. I haven't paid attention to Lance's cadence but it
seems he rides out of the saddle more than he used too.

There was a great article in Cyclesport about Indurian's and
Armstrong's climbing cadence. It claimed the very high cadences may
be beneficial if you are specifically trained for the high cadences.

On 16 Jul 2004 23:37:38 -0700, [email protected] (Shayana Kadidal)
wrote:

>My memory doesn't go back far enough to remember any Tour winner (or
>any particularly sucessful climber) who climbed at such a slow
>cadence, beyond the 154-pound Ullrich of 1997. Post-knee problems, he
>seemed to be picking up his climbing cadence last year.
>
>I've heard Hinault used to climb for miles out of the saddle in his
>youth, but not that he rode at a low cadence. I actually remember
>Indurain riding at what looked like a relatively low cadence in the
>mountains, but not as low as Der Kaiser.
>
>Of course, back in the days of single cogs there had to have been some
>guys grinding it out uphill. I know they would flip their rear wheels
>to get a bigger cog for the climbs, but the photos seem to show not
>very huge cogs on either side.
>
>Anyone with any more historical insight? Thanks.--Shayana Kadidal
 
"Keith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 16 Jul 2004 23:37:38 -0700, [email protected] (Shayana Kadidal)
> wrote:
>
> >My memory doesn't go back far enough to remember any Tour winner (or
> >any particularly sucessful climber) who climbed at such a slow
> >cadence, beyond the 154-pound Ullrich of 1997. Post-knee problems, he
> >seemed to be picking up his climbing cadence last year.

>
> Interesting discussion, I'm actually not sure why he insisted on
> mashing it out like this yesterday with no juice in his legs...He
> looked like Indurain going up Hautacam in 1996!


Yeah, that is the point. Blown riders often use lower cadence to commit
themselves to a minimal pace. IT has never happened to you? You blow but you
need every second...sometimes you just can't tick it over quickly and
shifting is the only thing you can do to keep the tension on the chain.
 
[email protected] (Shayana Kadidal) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> My memory doesn't go back far enough to remember any Tour winner (or
> any particularly sucessful climber) who climbed at such a slow
> cadence, beyond the 154-pound Ullrich of 1997. Post-knee problems, he
> seemed to be picking up his climbing cadence last year.
>
> I've heard Hinault used to climb for miles out of the saddle in his
> youth, but not that he rode at a low cadence. I actually remember
> Indurain riding at what looked like a relatively low cadence in the
> mountains, but not as low as Der Kaiser.
>
> Of course, back in the days of single cogs there had to have been some
> guys grinding it out uphill. I know they would flip their rear wheels
> to get a bigger cog for the climbs, but the photos seem to show not
> very huge cogs on either side.
>
> Anyone with any more historical insight? Thanks.--Shayana Kadidal



Bernard "Steroids" Thevenet was said to climb the major cols in a 53X17.
 
Darrell Criswell <[email protected]> wrote:

> Indurian in his prime climbed at a faster cadence than other riders
> about 100-105 rpm. I haven't paid attention to Lance's cadence but it
> seems he rides out of the saddle more than he used too.


In Indurains prime, his opponents considered his high candance to be a
weaknes because he couldn't accelerate on the steep climbes.
As i recall Riis and Ugrumov trained specificly at riding with a lower
cadance.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

PowerMac G5: 1.6GHz, 1.25GB RAM, 80GB Disk, 8x DVD+/-RW, Bluetooth mus
+ tastatur, FX5200 Ultra, iSight, eyeTV200 & Lacie Photon18Vision (TFT).
 
> Yeah, that is the point. Blown riders often use lower cadence to commit
> themselves to a minimal pace. IT has never happened to you? You blow but you
> need every second...sometimes you just can't tick it over quickly and
> shifting is the only thing you can do to keep the tension on the chain.


Was he blown on Arcalis in 1997? He used the same grinding style back
then when he dropped the whole field. It's his style, not something he
does when he's fried and bottoming out of his gears.

Riis had some comments on it today on procycling.com.

Virenque I just counted at 72rpm on the Aspet, off the front, not the
back -- although he's doing it out of the saddle. Ullrich does it
sitting. One side-effect: his legs look amazingly cut as he drives
uphill, pushing 50% harder per stroke as someone beside him at 90rpm.
Tell me this guy is fat right now [4th picture down]:

http://www.velonews.com/tour2004/details/articles/6594.0.html
 
On 18 Jul 2004 15:29:44 -0700, [email protected] (Shayana Kadidal)
wrote:

>Was he blown on Arcalis in 1997? He used the same grinding style back
>then when he dropped the whole field. It's his style, not something he
>does when he's fried and bottoming out of his gears.


Interesting that everyone seem to think he is no longer a factor in
this years Tour. Fact is, he is still remarkably consistent and the
only thing sitting between him and another podium place (albeit third,
not second is whether or not the team pulls him from leader status and
has him support Kloden.

I think most people see Voeckler dropping like a stone in the
placings. I personally expect Mancebo and Totschnig to be extremely
vulnerable by the time the Alps are though. If Ullrich rides
completely in support, maybe Azevedo stays in front of him, the last
stage of the USCPS-Berry rocket, and Kloder takes third. OTOH, if Jan
is good tomorrow, I still see him finishing third, Kloden fourth, and
Mancebo, Totschnig and Azevedo just behind.

So too late to be a prediction, just a counter opinion on Jan being
out of this Tour altogether. Good ride tomorrow, Jan is number three
on the podium.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
 
Darrell Criswell <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Indurian in his prime climbed at a faster cadence than other riders
> about 100-105 rpm. I haven't paid attention to Lance's cadence but it
> seems he rides out of the saddle more than he used too.
>
> There was a great article in Cyclesport about Indurian's and
> Armstrong's climbing cadence. It claimed the very high cadences may
> be beneficial if you are specifically trained for the high cadences.


I am really suprised that Lance climbs out of the saddle so much. Most
climbers are not able to climb effectively out of the saddle unless
they are very light-weight. It would be interesting to see some
figures on how much Lance is expending while climbing out of the
saddle.
>
> On 16 Jul 2004 23:37:38 -0700, [email protected] (Shayana Kadidal)
> wrote:
>
> >My memory doesn't go back far enough to remember any Tour winner (or
> >any particularly sucessful climber) who climbed at such a slow
> >cadence, beyond the 154-pound Ullrich of 1997. Post-knee problems, he
> >seemed to be picking up his climbing cadence last year.
> >
> >I've heard Hinault used to climb for miles out of the saddle in his
> >youth, but not that he rode at a low cadence. I actually remember
> >Indurain riding at what looked like a relatively low cadence in the
> >mountains, but not as low as Der Kaiser.
> >
> >Of course, back in the days of single cogs there had to have been some
> >guys grinding it out uphill. I know they would flip their rear wheels
> >to get a bigger cog for the climbs, but the photos seem to show not
> >very huge cogs on either side.
> >
> >Anyone with any more historical insight? Thanks.--Shayana Kadidal
 
Charles Hizark wrote:
> Darrell Criswell <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>Indurian in his prime climbed at a faster cadence than other riders
>>about 100-105 rpm. I haven't paid attention to Lance's cadence but it
>>seems he rides out of the saddle more than he used too.
>>
>>There was a great article in Cyclesport about Indurian's and
>>Armstrong's climbing cadence. It claimed the very high cadences may
>>be beneficial if you are specifically trained for the high cadences.

>
>
> I am really suprised that Lance climbs out of the saddle so much. Most
> climbers are not able to climb effectively out of the saddle unless
> they are very light-weight. It would be interesting to see some
> figures on how much Lance is expending while climbing out of the
> saddle.
>



Why does being lightweight make a difference?

Dan
 
On 19 Jul 2004 14:24:27 -0700, [email protected] (Charles Hizark)
wrote:

be beneficial if you are specifically trained for the high cadences.
>
>I am really suprised that Lance
> climbs out of the saddle so much.
>

How many hours of coverage are you watching so you can see how much he
is out of the saddle?

JT
 
in article [email protected], Dan Connelly at
d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g wrote on 7/19/04 3:22 PM:

> Charles Hizark wrote:
>> Darrell Criswell <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:<[email protected]>...
>>
>>> Indurian in his prime climbed at a faster cadence than other riders
>>> about 100-105 rpm. I haven't paid attention to Lance's cadence but it
>>> seems he rides out of the saddle more than he used too.
>>>
>>> There was a great article in Cyclesport about Indurian's and
>>> Armstrong's climbing cadence. It claimed the very high cadences may
>>> be beneficial if you are specifically trained for the high cadences.

>>
>>
>> I am really suprised that Lance climbs out of the saddle so much. Most
>> climbers are not able to climb effectively out of the saddle unless
>> they are very light-weight. It would be interesting to see some
>> figures on how much Lance is expending while climbing out of the
>> saddle.
>>

>
>
> Why does being lightweight make a difference?


It doesn't. The advantage of climbing out of the saddle is that you can use
gravity and the weight of your body to turn the pedals. The disadvantage is
that the explosive motions tend to use anaerobic energy which runs out very
quickly. The strain on the muscles also makes it harder to recover.

The secret of any great climber is that he can climb out of the saddle
smoothly and efficiently, without running out of gas or getting worn out.
It doesn't matter if the guy's 130 lb. or 180., although of course it will
look a little bit different because the 130-lber doesn't have as much mass
to deal with.

-Sonarrat.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Curtis L. Russell <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 18 Jul 2004 15:29:44 -0700, [email protected] (Shayana Kadidal)
> wrote:
>
> >Was he blown on Arcalis in 1997? He used the same grinding style back
> >then when he dropped the whole field. It's his style, not something he
> >does when he's fried and bottoming out of his gears.

>
> Interesting that everyone seem to think he is no longer a factor in
> this years Tour. Fact is, he is still remarkably consistent and the
> only thing sitting between him and another podium place (albeit third,
> not second is whether or not the team pulls him from leader status and
> has him support Kloden.
>
> I think most people see Voeckler dropping like a stone in the
> placings. I personally expect Mancebo and Totschnig to be extremely
> vulnerable by the time the Alps are though. If Ullrich rides
> completely in support, maybe Azevedo stays in front of him, the last
> stage of the USCPS-Berry rocket, and Kloder takes third. OTOH, if Jan
> is good tomorrow, I still see him finishing third, Kloden fourth, and
> Mancebo, Totschnig and Azevedo just behind.
>
> So too late to be a prediction, just a counter opinion on Jan being
> out of this Tour altogether. Good ride tomorrow, Jan is number three
> on the podium.


If Kloden finishes on the third step, that's a huge accomplishment for
him. If Ullrich does it, that's second loser, which is like placing
second in the Miss Congeniality contest. For a guy who has never done
worse than second (and who, with a marginal team that barely existed
last year, lost by a minute) to be so completely adrift of GC before the
Alps even came around is a big surprise.

Expectations are everything. Voeckler is a revelation, even if he losing
about four minutes per stage in the mountains (I count three more
dangerous mountain stages, including the Alpe d'Huez TT). Basso is doing
great. Armstrong is on track (really, who would say "great job!" if he
came second?) but Ullrich is losing to teammates. Something went wrong,
and taking third won't put much of a grin on his face even if he manages
it.

I say this as a guy who likes Jan: he always seems quiet and humble in
interviews. He's already come out and said he'll ride for Kloden if
necessary. Hands up anyone who thinks that Lance (and I'm rooting for
him) would ride for Azevedo if he lost a few minutes in the mountains.

On the other hand, the hatred of losing is a very important element of
most champions in any sport. I think that Lance has the special kind of
personality defect that makes him hate losing so much he cannot abide
it. I think Ullrich doesn't have quite the same fear and hatred of
losing. That and the lactic acid clearance physiological issues :).

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club
 
Sonarrat <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<BD2202FA.55EC%[email protected]>...
> in article [email protected], Dan Connelly at
> d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g wrote on 7/19/04 3:22 PM:
>
> > Charles Hizark wrote:
> >> Darrell Criswell <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:<[email protected]>...
> >>
> >>> Indurian in his prime climbed at a faster cadence than other riders
> >>> about 100-105 rpm. I haven't paid attention to Lance's cadence but it
> >>> seems he rides out of the saddle more than he used too.
> >>>
> >>> There was a great article in Cyclesport about Indurian's and
> >>> Armstrong's climbing cadence. It claimed the very high cadences may
> >>> be beneficial if you are specifically trained for the high cadences.
> >>
> >>
> >> I am really suprised that Lance climbs out of the saddle so much. Most
> >> climbers are not able to climb effectively out of the saddle unless
> >> they are very light-weight. It would be interesting to see some
> >> figures on how much Lance is expending while climbing out of the
> >> saddle.
> >>

> >
> >
> > Why does being lightweight make a difference?

>
> It doesn't. The advantage of climbing out of the saddle is that you can use
> gravity and the weight of your body to turn the pedals. The disadvantage is
> that the explosive motions tend to use anaerobic energy which runs out very
> quickly. The strain on the muscles also makes it harder to recover.
>


The biggest advantage of weighing less is that a rider has upper body
weight to support. This why riders like Pantani and Lucho Herrera were
able to climb standing for extended periods of time.

> The secret of any great climber is that he can climb out of the saddle
> smoothly and efficiently, without running out of gas or getting worn out.
> It doesn't matter if the guy's 130 lb. or 180., although of course it will
> look a little bit different because the 130-lber doesn't have as much mass
> to deal with.


I think for a pure climber that true, but for riders that are not they
have to climb seated more. Personally I have found that climbing out
of the saddle expends a lot of unecessary energy. If you have a good
technique you can maintain the same speed 90% of the time.
>
> -Sonarrat.